This could slow down 4xe sales

[Ratiogear]

Sooooo, even if this does pass, wrangler just moves towards offering their 4xe on sport and willys trims at 35k msrp, to give some wiggle room for some features to be added. It's not like JL wranglers, starting at 30k for an unoptioned sport 2 door, are affordable vehicles anyway.

I mean, it was clear to me that was their plan prior to the mid-summer announcement of potential changes to the EV credit. Throw on mandatory upgrades like lights/audio/leather/color matched fender flares to get as many luxury/upper mid folks buying this version as possible, then once they hit the 200k mark, start rolling it out as on option on lower trims.

But man this thread is ridiculous.

The thing I'm most upset about is my flowchart may need updating and I don't know that I'll have the time.

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[omega145]

Study in my area was done and showed a family sitting at home that can figure out how to get as much out of the system as possible can bring in 87 k. Yah it isn’t driving no 60 k Jeep around but it is a lot of money when you are prob not paying a mortgage, your credit card off monthly, and whatever else. Just kinda burns a bit when you are working 2 almost full time jobs to pack it away for your kids college find, retirement so I’m not 70 breaking my back still, but also have money to live in the now.

I highly doubt that. I don't know any family making 87K just sitting at home stacking away money. Not sure why people always need to worry about the next person either. I try to live by this motto: "The only time you should look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them". Life is not fair nor is the social environment we are a part of. Worrying about other people and situations you can not control sure is life draining.

 

[rent]

Study in my area was done and showed a family sitting at home that can figure out how to get as much out of the system as possible can bring in 87 k.

Not trying to be argumentative or anything, but genuinely interested in how this could be possible (maybe I can do it too? ). Would you have a link to this study?

 

[Jank4AU]

Not trying to be argumentative or anything, but genuinely interested in how this could be possible (maybe I can do it too? ). Would you have a link to this study?

This is an interesting analysis. It might be possible to do what @jimim mentioned in one of these states if there are a couple pulling these benefits. I don't know, but would assume they would have to be participating solo, not as a married couple, but I don't know. Then, if you add the Federal COVID checks (yeah, I know they're not permanent) that were recently sent out, it adds up:
States Where Welfare Recipients Are Paid More Than Minimum Wage (cheatsheet.com)

 

[rent]

This is an interesting analysis. It might be possible to do what @jimim mentioned in one of these states if there are a couple pulling these benefits. I don't know, but would assume they would have to be participating solo, not as a married couple, but I don't know. Then, if you add the Federal COVID checks (yeah, I know they're not permanent) that were recently sent out, it adds up:
States Where Welfare Recipients Are Paid More Than Minimum Wage (cheatsheet.com)

I was being facetious of course. Yeah I think to pull this off you'd need to be a couple both unemployed and have 4 kids and living in the "right" state like PA.

 

[Kyanche]

-say goodbye to long road trips if there is no place to charge up on the way

Ah yes, because everyone takes road trips all the time

-I have a house with a garage, but no 220 line, so every charge will take 12 hours or more on standard 110 line, and I am not alone

Spent $55k on a jeep, can't afford to spend $1k on getting a 220v installed in their garage.

-if you live in an apartment, you will be waiting in line for a charge every night if you have a long commute

True, that. Although apartments could install chargers. Could be a bit more complicated than the home garage solution.

2. Not enough electric generating capacity

Oh, I agree 100% with this one. Not being sarcastic. I think there are ways to manage it, but yeah it's definitely an issue.

And what happens to all those toxic batteries at their end of life? Is that the next crisis we will need to throw money at?

Maybe. The battery cells seem to last a pretty long time, and if the batteries are designed to be easily recycled than the materials will just get reused. Theoretically. In practice people are lazy and shitty and will cut a corner to make a fast buck any chance they get, so they'll probably end up getting buried in some random yard to make someone rich and then become a taxpayer funded EPA superfund site many years later.

From an ecology standpoint, I think the best move is to motivate car manufacturers to make cars that don't start falling apart after 5 years. Ironic to my point there, they do a DECENT job at this. The average car on the road is 12 years old. I imagine cars rotting away in the dump are much worse for the environment than any impact they make otherwise.

 

[Ratiogear]

Lol 87k sitting around. If you don't know that's bullshit, I don't know what to tell you. The only way I could see that remotely possible would be looking at a family on free housing assistance through section 8, and valuing their housing assistance above the market average rate in a high COL area like NY/SF/Seattle, then counting medicaid/chip as salary too.

But if you've lived or worked in or near section 8 housing in those areas, you'd stop feeling so jealous, because those roach infested, crack filled, incredibly dangerous garbage boxes are likely places you couldn't be paid to live in.

Also, the CATO study? Like damn that's some malignantly uninformed shit.
https://www.cbpp.org/research/comme...ety-net-supports-rather-than-discourages-work
https://www.epi.org/blog/cato-study-distorts-truth-welfare-work/

In 2009, average transfer income for the lowest fifth of workers was $4,633 and average labor income was $12,871. (To be comparable with the Cato report, I’m not including Medicare and Social Security income.) Two things are clear here: government transfers are far less than what Tanner and Hughes claim, and labor income far exceeds government transfers for the lowest income group, meaning that real-world low-income families don’t feel so coddled by lavish welfare benefits that they don’t need to work.

Time for my unsourced claims: the issue is that this can be framed either way. Something like 60% of welfare recipients never leave welfare. That makes it seem like it's a system for people who don't work and live off your dime. And sure that happens some. But on the other hand, if you look over a long period of time, that 60% number doesn't change, because again, it's the same number of people who were on it the last 5 years that are still on it being lazy fucks this year. But over that 5 years, nearly 80% of the number of total welfare recipients used it as an assistance program in times of dire need and got back on their feet and got off welfare.

 

[jimim]

And so are EVs (ie the basis of EVs is political), especially the 4xe, because in reality, the E capability does not suit the purpose of a 4x4 vehicle. You cant ignore that.


You know, im a bit of a clown at times (overly so), i wont deny it. It’s part of wanting to enjoy this ride called life.

But to be completely down to the bone and honest to what you said… im of an immigrant/first generation family. And one of life’s lessons that was beat into me growing up was that no meal is ever free, and that you enjoy what you work for, but you have to work. So i totally identify with what i understand to be the gist of your wife’s statement.

when it comes to the 4xe; i say, you get what you pay for. This technology and its broad application into the consumer market is still very much young and unproven. Battery material, charging and safety routines are very tricky to work with. So, for me 4xe’s are understandably expensive, and the infrastructure that’s supportive of ‘real-life’ use is still not there. Essentially, ‘it’s not time yet’.

But a tax incentive to consumers is not the answer to progress it sooner. A tax incentive to technology firms for r&d in infrastructure integration and battery efficiency/life, i think, would be.

my father was in charge of various aspects of family court for 35 years. he knows the various departments inside and out. he always said Pa give out more money easier than any other state. the amount of avenues in pa to pull down money is crazy. 1. during covid school districts had to supply students with meals even during summer. some districts eve went as far as sending out depot cards if the family said they can not get there to pick up the meals (breakfast and lunch). money was to be used for food, so money in pocket. 2. if you have a special needs child there is a program, all. the time, not during covid, that a family member is allowed to hire a babysitter to allow the family time on their own to do shopping and what not. the babysitter can not have same last name of the parents. the parents sign off on hours and the sate. . . get this . . .sends the check to the parents. it is all tax free money up front. the parent then pays the babysitter. it doesn't go to the baby sitter. there is zero check and balance for the program. I work in the system. I see first hand how this is abused. the state at. times just sends a check automatically for a pre approved hours per month if it is ongoing. zero checks and balance.

just 2 of the biggest abused examples from before covid and during covid.

 

[JSFoster75]

That's the point. It's a way for a certain group of people -- those who do not want the tax credit to be available widely because they're beholden to interests that would be harmed by the widespread adoption of EVs -- to take away the tax credit without taking away the tax credit.

It's like every other government sponsored program, something that sounds great to appease the environmentalist, but make it where no one qualifies for it.

People making under $100k likely aren't buying $35-$40k cars, and people making over that probably don't care about fuel mileage...

 

[Jank4AU]

@Ratiogear - the CATO study certainly conflates some things and overestimates actual payments with available benefits assuming everyone maximizes available programs - worst case scenario. However, here's a more current study about the effects of government assistance/unemployment benefits. I think it illustrates the lack of work ethic among some of our population:
Unemployed Households Can Earn $25/Hour on Welfare in 21 States, New Study Finds - Foundation for Economic Education (fee.org)

In the absence of welfare most people are inclined to find work. Hopefully this is just a short-lived issue unless government decides to institute monthly living wage payments or something along those lines. I tend to think gov't is the problem and not the answer. If they would stop throwing money at problems and let states or local communities devise better alternatives, we might actually see better outcomes. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Ratiogear]

I think it panders to the talking point of the lack of work ethic, or a difference in values. Do you care to keep hard working people facing tough times, or do you care that some people get to live in relative comfort (relative meaning compared to homelessness, not living well or developing long term wealth or providing a ladder for their kids)?

And that study is again, done in the same way to realize maximum benefits possible to make clickbait titles for conservatives to pander with. 5.4% unemployed, 746$ billion of US govt money spent on social programs, the majority of which go to working families , but this should be a focus of our discussions, instead of the other 6 trillion we plan on spending in 2021.

 

[Jank4AU]

I think it panders to the talking point of the lack of work ethic, or a difference in values. Do you care to keep hard working people facing tough times, or do you care that some people get to live in relative comfort (relative meaning compared to homelessness, not living well or developing long term wealth or providing a ladder for their kids)?

And that study is again, done in the same way to realize maximum benefits possible to make clickbait titles for conservatives to pander with. 5.4% unemployed, 746$ billion of US govt money spent on social programs, the majority of which go to working families , but this should be a focus of our discussions, instead of the other 6 trillion we plan on spending in 2021.

The real unemployment rate was 9.2% in July, which is 0.6 percentage points lower than in June. This alternate measure of unemployment, known as U-6, gives a broader definition of unemployment. It includes people who would like a job but haven't looked for one in the past month. It also includes those who are underemployed and marginally attached.

• The unemployment rate is 5.4%, which is 0.5 percentage points lower than in June.
• This is significantly higher than before the pandemic.
• Some of the biggest gains came in leisure and hospitality and food and drinking places. These were followed by private and public education and professional and business services.

The number of job openings in the US rose by almost 1.0 million from the previous month to a new record high of 9.286 million in April 2021, easily beating market expectations of 8.3 million.

There's your work-ethic at work. I got a second job as a server at 45 years old because my family needed it. I've worked with today's kids and they overwhelmingly suck. They're entitled and think things are owed to them, show up late, if at all, and call out all the time. You're 100% wrong if you think there's a strong work ethic in this country. You have to hide under a table to avoid a job right now.

 

[OINC]

It's like every other government sponsored program, something that sounds great to appease the environmentalist, but make it where no one qualifies for it.

People making under $100k likely aren't buying $35-$40k cars, and people making over that probably don't care about fuel mileage...

I would note that the environmentalists want to make the tax credit $12500 at an $80K price limit and no income limit and phase out when the market reaches 50% EVs, which is MUCH more reasonable in today's market. This was ... the other side of the aisle, let's put it that way. They certainly don't care about environmentalists.

I live in NYC because that is where I can get a good job, so I find the above just a bit offensive.

Pushing for a changeover to EVs is just kicking the can down the road. There is not enough infrastructure to support a rapid changeover to EVs:

1. Not enough charging stations
-say goodbye to long road trips if there is no place to charge up on the way
-I have a house with a garage, but no 220 line, so every charge will take 12 hours or more on standard 110 line, and I am not alone
-if you live in an apartment, you will be waiting in line for a charge every night if you have a long commute

2. Not enough electric generating capacity
-we still use coal for a significant portion of electric generation
-we are afraid of building nuclear power generating plants which are carbon neutral
-we have nowhere near enough solar and wind infrastructure.

And what happens to all those toxic batteries at their end of life? Is that the next crisis we will need to throw money at?

I see. Infrastructure is fixed, and we cannot change it, right? So these three problems are completely and utterly frozen in time and will never ever be solved, no matter how hard we try or how much money is in the infrastructure bills winding their way through Congress for solving them. Right? Right???

 

[csjlu]

The real unemployment rate was 9.2% in July, which is 0.6 percentage points lower than in June. This alternate measure of unemployment, known as U-6, gives a broader definition of unemployment. It includes people who would like a job but haven't looked for one in the past month. It also includes those who are underemployed and marginally attached.

• The unemployment rate is 5.4%, which is 0.5 percentage points lower than in June.
• This is significantly higher than before the pandemic.
• Some of the biggest gains came in leisure and hospitality and food and drinking places. These were followed by private and public education and professional and business services.

The number of job openings in the US rose by almost 1.0 million from the previous month to a new record high of 9.286 million in April 2021, easily beating market expectations of 8.3 million.

There's your work-ethic at work. I got a second job as a server at 45 years old because my family needed it. I've worked with today's kids and they overwhelmingly suck. They're entitled and think things are owed to them, show up late, if at all, and call out all the time. You're 100% wrong if you think there's a strong work ethic in this country. You have to hide under a table to avoid a job right now.

I give you +1 for bringing U-6 to the forum discussion. You are speaking my language, and I don't recall ever seeing it referenced on the boards.

A 5.4% U-4 unemployment is actually pretty good, all things considered, and is oscillating right around long term historical trends (and really good given the increases in automation we've seen). U-6 ranges between 7.5-10% during normal times. There is nothing abnormal about these current values, and they are coming off sharp highs following a self-induced recession triggered by a pandemic.They are higher than they were pre-pandemic, but a lot of employers no longer exist and not everyone can work remotely and/or go back to a workplace.

re: your comments about an entire generation of workers, I have to disagree respectfully. I'm a Gen X'er and had to endure angry Baby Boomers saying the same degrading things about my generation. While the lack of work ethic may be true at a regional level, here in the NYC area its not uncommon to pull 10-14 hour days, 6-7x per week. I also work with Millennials, Gen Ys and Gen Zs every day, who pull longer hours than I do since they support me. They are crazy smart too - I'm lucky to even have a job given what these younger people can do. Again it may be a regional thing, and YMMV.

 

[Oncorhynchus]

I live in NYC because that is where I can get a good job, so I find the above just a bit offensive.

Since you live in NYC, ya gotta have thick skin. If my conflated mention of the Taliban, Canada and Bruce Lee didn’t make it clear that my post was tongue in cheek then I gotta work on my punchline.

I love NYC. In my mind it’s the only city in America that can be considered a world class metropolis.

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