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bibanul

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Yeah, that’s a pretty different application than it’s intended for. Not saying you couldn’t make it work, but just not as straightforward.

If I were you, I would start by completely removing the Aux battery, and in its place, hook up DCC50S “ALT+“ going towards the PCR relay (and ultimately the alternator if/when the PCR relay allows it).

Hook up DCC50S “OUT+“ to both the LiFePo battery and “N1,” to supply the vehicle electronics. You would still need to connect the “IGN” signal wire to Fuse 50 (or equivalent, like just jumping it to the “ALT+“ might work since that’s coming from the alternator anyway).

The only remaining question would be the PCR /Aux battery check when starting up. I don’t know if the voltage is read on the “N1” side or the ”PCR” side as they are normally one and the same with no DC-DC in between (read the @Jebiruph ESS guides for more info). If it’s the former, then you should be good to go. If it’s the latter, then unplugging the PCR “C2” connection should do it, which permanently engages the relay.

YMMV and do all this at your own risk, I take no responsibility if anything goes wrong, big or small. But do let us know how it goes!
Sounds good thanks for the heads up. I had same setup in mind, however the DCC50S will isolate access to PCR > N3 hence the startup check might not happen if on the PCR side even with the C2 pulled just because DCC50 might not have a closed circuit to AUX unless it's charging. The chain will be as follows: N3 > DCC50 > PCR > N1+AUX Batt.

If the startup check happens on the N1 side then this becomes less of an issue (most likely since IBS is on negative terminal, probably for that reason :D).

Still, the main question remains that while ALT is running the PCR normally closed passed ALT current to N1 hence powering the electronics besides charging AUX. Injecting the DCC50 will make that "trickle charge" that 30 sec N1 is on battery then switches to BATT+ALT as DCC50 charges, then DCC50 reads batt fully charged and disconnects and the cycle starts over. Weird stuff.

Maybe I will just leave the AGM in AUX and put a solar MPPT only on top of the Main batt and call it a day :). TBH, I'm annoyed that on ACC with engine off both batteries are drained, yes technically until main drops to 12.7v then apparently PCR opens (on ACC still) to protect the main and allow AUX to continue to power ACC. Which makes sense for startup check when ECU decides if AUX is too discharged to be reconnected to Main or keep PCR open until engine cranks up then reconnect to charge both batteries.
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remlemasi

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Sounds good thanks for the heads up. I had same setup in mind, however the DCC50S will isolate access to PCR > N3 hence the startup check might not happen if on the PCR side even with the C2 pulled just because DCC50 might not have a closed circuit to AUX unless it's charging. The chain will be as follows: N3 > DCC50 > PCR > N1+AUX Batt.

If the startup check happens on the N1 side then this becomes less of an issue (most likely since IBS is on negative terminal, probably for that reason :D).

Still, the main question remains that while ALT is running the PCR normally closed passed ALT current to N1 hence powering the electronics besides charging AUX. Injecting the DCC50 will make that "trickle charge" that 30 sec N1 is on battery then switches to BATT+ALT as DCC50 charges, then DCC50 reads batt fully charged and disconnects and the cycle starts over. Weird stuff.

Maybe I will just leave the AGM in AUX and put a solar MPPT only on top of the Main batt and call it a day :). TBH, I'm annoyed that on ACC with engine off both batteries are drained, yes technically until main drops to 12.7v then apparently PCR opens (on ACC still) to protect the main and allow AUX to continue to power ACC. Which makes sense for startup check when ECU decides if AUX is too discharged to be reconnected to Main or keep PCR open until engine cranks up then reconnect to charge both batteries.
You have the DCC50S in between N3 and PCR.

I’m suggesting putting the DCC50S in between the PCR and N1+LiFePo.

DCC50S “ALT+“ goes to PCR, DCC50S “OUT+” goes to the N1+LiFePo.

AB3A8A14-3414-4573-A069-1051D7D4ED03.png


Won’t the way I suggested solve most of the issues you bring up?
 

bibanul

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You have the DCC50S in between N3 and PCR.

I’m suggesting putting the DCC50S in between the PCR and N1+LiFePo.

DCC50S “ALT+“ goes to PCR, DCC50S “OUT+” goes to the N1+LiFePo.

Jeep Wrangler JL Overlanding battery AB3A8A14-3414-4573-A069-1051D7D4ED03


Won’t the way I suggested solve most of the issues you bring up?
Yup, I can do that too. I still fear on engine start if check for AUX happens and with C2 pulled, the electric circuit won't close because DCC50 will be isolating the AUX part from the PCR since it's not actively charging it and engine is off.
 

remlemasi

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Yup, I can do that too. I still fear on engine start if check for AUX happens and with C2 pulled, the electric circuit won't close because DCC50 will be isolating the AUX part from the PCR since it's not actively charging it and engine is off.
From Jebiruph's thread on Cold Starts:

Sometime between the pressing of the Start switch and the starter cranking, The PCM briefly activates the PCR, separating the batteries. Both the Keyless Ignition Node and Radio-Freq Hub modules are then powered only from the Aux battery. If the Aux battery cannot provide enough power for the modules, the status of the start switch is lost and the starting process terminates.

Jeep Wrangler JL Overlanding battery AB3A8A14-3414-4573-A069-1051D7D4ED03

This also explains why it will start with just the Aux battery, but not just the Main battery. With just the Aux battery connected, the status of the Start Switch is maintained while the PCR separates the batteries, and the starting process continues when the PCR reconnects the batteries. With just the Main battery connected, the starting process terminates as soon as the PCR separates the batteries and the KIN and RFH modules lose power.
Based on this, it's my understanding that the Aux battery "check" is really just the KIN / RFH maintaining power when the PCR is blipped. It's not "measured" per se. Not at N1, not at PCR. It's just making sure the KIN / RFH still have power, which, when the PCR is blipped, comes exclusively from the Aux battery.

The LiFePo battery will be connected directly to N1 and thus provides power to KIN / RFH, assuming the LiFePo battery isn't dead, and cranking is allowed to proceed.

If the LiFePo battery IS dead, then jumping N1 to N2 should solve it and provide power from the starter battery to N1 / KIN / RFH so cranking can start. However, I would NOT leave N1 and N2 permanently jumped as it would cause the starter AGM battery and the LiFePo aux battery to cycle charge back and forth...

With this deeper understanding now, I think that pulling C2 on the PCR will NOT do anything as the DCC50S does NOT complete a circuit between "ALT+" and" OUT+". There's a whole bunch of electronics and DC-DC conversion going on between those two lugs. The only way to start if the LiFePo aux battery is dead is to jump N1 and N2 temporarily.
 

bibanul

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From Jebiruph's thread on Cold Starts:



Based on this, it's my understanding that the Aux battery "check" is really just the KIN / RFH maintaining power when the PCR is blipped. It's not "measured" per se. Not at N1, not at PCR. It's just making sure the KIN / RFH still have power, which, when the PCR is blipped, comes exclusively from the Aux battery.

The LiFePo battery will be connected directly to N1 and thus provides power to KIN / RFH, assuming the LiFePo battery isn't dead, and cranking is allowed to proceed.

If the LiFePo battery IS dead, then jumping N1 to N2 should solve it and provide power from the starter battery to N1 / KIN / RFH so cranking can start. However, I would NOT leave N1 and N2 permanently jumped as it would cause the starter AGM battery and the LiFePo aux battery to cycle charge back and forth...

With this deeper understanding now, I think that pulling C2 on the PCR will NOT do anything as the DCC50S does NOT complete a circuit between "ALT+" and" OUT+". There's a whole bunch of electronics and DC-DC conversion going on between those two lugs. The only way to start if the LiFePo aux battery is dead is to jump N1 and N2 temporarily.
Thanks for the detailed answer, I learned a lot. One more thing bothers me. the AUX is wired to N1 and the PCR connects the alternator to N1+AUX as well. Moreso at rest, both batteries are connected via PCR/N3. I have to run the DCC50S after the PCR to the battery BUT when the engine is on, the ALT amperage is passed to the N1 ONLY if the LiFePo4 needs to be charging AND limited to 50A, otherwise DCC50S isolates the ALT path hence while the engine is running, the N1 receives AUX battery current only until AUX drops enough to tell DCC50S to start charging again, then once charged the cycle repeats.

Another complication is the max current expected on N1 with all electronics and AC on while ALT is supposed to send 200Amps there and in fact sees only 30 or 40 as the LiFePo4 can put out.

All in all, huge headache, might just get a beefier AGM AUX, relocate under passenger seat or trunk and just let alternator do its thing and use the LiFePo4 as standalone house batt to power whatever I run in the trunk. Or better DEL AUX, wire up N1+N2 and done deal. Pitty, i wanted to run the Alpine while at the beach :(...

Any other thoughts on this setup?

Thanks a lot!
 

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I'm bringing this thread back as I've read through a good chunk of the posts but the answer may have gone over my head.

I bought a renogy dcdc controller and one of their lithium 50ah batteries. I have it hooked up to my main battery in the Jeep's hood and the additional ignition sensor wire connected from the aux bundle.
On a recent trip I noticed the Jeep only hitting upper 13V to 14V for a short time each morning, and even driving all day would not result in a full lithium battery. The voltage raises briefly when I use engine braking, but basically the battery stayed low and often cut off the fridge overnight.

I heard one suggestion from a shop to try hooking my setup to the smaller battery in the hood as this is what drives the alternator's duty cycle. I'll try it (though my trip is over so I won't get a good test) but I'm skeptical.

Anyone have suggestions?
 

unsavory

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I'm bringing this thread back as I've read through a good chunk of the posts but the answer may have gone over my head.

I bought a renogy dcdc controller and one of their lithium 50ah batteries. I have it hooked up to my main battery in the Jeep's hood and the additional ignition sensor wire connected from the aux bundle.
On a recent trip I noticed the Jeep only hitting upper 13V to 14V for a short time each morning, and even driving all day would not result in a full lithium battery. The voltage raises briefly when I use engine braking, but basically the battery stayed low and often cut off the fridge overnight.

I heard one suggestion from a shop to try hooking my setup to the smaller battery in the hood as this is what drives the alternator's duty cycle. I'll try it (though my trip is over so I won't get a good test) but I'm skeptical.

Anyone have suggestions?
The low voltage is due to the Jeep's smart alternator sensing that you main battery is full, and does not need anymore charging. This is why you see 13+ volts first thing in the morning as you start driving.

The question here, is do you have a DC to DC charger hooked between your large cranking battery and your lithium battery? If so, what is the minimum voltage it requires to operate?

If it requires more than what the voltage display is reading while driving on large trips, that's your problem.

Unfortunately, the only cure for this that I know of, would be to disconnect the battery sensor on the main battery, which will cause the smart alternator to always put out around 14 volts I believe it is. Problem with that, is it could cook your main battery on long trips by overcharging it. It also has a drag on your gas mileage.

I'd start by finding what the minimum operating voltage of your DC to DC charger is, and go from there.
 

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The low voltage is due to the Jeep's smart alternator sensing that you main battery is full, and does not need anymore charging. This is why you see 13+ volts first thing in the morning as you start driving.

The question here, is do you have a DC to DC charger hooked between your large cranking battery and your lithium battery? If so, what is the minimum voltage it requires to operate?

If it requires more than what the voltage display is reading while driving on large trips, that's your problem.

Unfortunately, the only cure for this that I know of, would be to disconnect the battery sensor on the main battery, which will cause the smart alternator to always put out around 14 volts I believe it is. Problem with that, is it could cook your main battery on long trips by overcharging it. It also has a drag on your gas mileage.

I'd start by finding what the minimum operating voltage of your DC to DC charger is, and go from there.
Yes - the Jeep battery being full and stopping the alternator makes sense and is what I've figured out, but I'm starting to wonder how it can be compatible with lithium which shows empty at a higher voltage than an AGM.
Renogy says:

Alternator Input Voltage:

Traditional Alternator: 13.2-16VDC
Smart Alternator (Euro 6): 12-16VDC

Which I assumed meant that it would work happily, but then if the Jeep battery is 80% full at 12.5V, this will be too low for the lithium which a chart tells me would be around 14.5%.

One question about what you said - how are batteries in older cars without smart alternators not cooked if they're always exposed to 14V?
I wish there were a setting to hit to force charging (or I suppose adding a switch to that sensor wire without frying anything).
 

aseeber

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Yes - the Jeep battery being full and stopping the alternator makes sense and is what I've figured out, but I'm starting to wonder how it can be compatible with lithium which shows empty at a higher voltage than an AGM.
Renogy says:

Alternator Input Voltage:

Traditional Alternator: 13.2-16VDC
Smart Alternator (Euro 6): 12-16VDC

Which I assumed meant that it would work happily, but then if the Jeep battery is 80% full at 12.5V, this will be too low for the lithium which a chart tells me would be around 14.5%.

One question about what you said - how are batteries in older cars without smart alternators not cooked if they're always exposed to 14V?
I wish there were a setting to hit to force charging (or I suppose adding a switch to that sensor wire without frying anything).
I've got almost the same setup as you except that instead of using the ignition wire from the aux bundle to trigger the DC-DC charger I'm using the rear 12 v socket live wire. Normally the rear 12 v is always live so you just have to move a fuse to position F91 to make it only turn on with ignition.

I don't see why the ignition wire from the aux bundle wouldn't work but it's the only difference I see between our setups.

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I've got almost the same setup as you except that instead of using the ignition wire from the aux bundle to trigger the DC-DC charger I'm using the rear 12 v socket live wire. Normally the rear 12 v is always live so you just have to move a fuse to position F91 to make it only turn on with ignition.

I don't see why the ignition wire from the aux bundle wouldn't work but it's the only difference I see between our setups.

Jeep Wrangler JL Overlanding battery 1661945187769
So you're finding it charges your aux battery fully?
Your batt voltage dashboard display stays high to complete this charge?

I'm getting some charge, but it feels like only 50% before the car is happy and stops charging. I don't have the renogy battery monitor, just the DCDC monitor so I can see when it's charging and what the house batt voltage is.
 

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aseeber

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So you're finding it charges your aux battery fully?
Your batt voltage dashboard display stays high to complete this charge?

I'm getting some charge, but it feels like only 50% before the car is happy and stops charging. I don't have the renogy battery monitor, just the DCDC monitor so I can see when it's charging and what the house batt voltage is.
Yes, I've got my DC-DC charger connected to a Renogy 170 Ah (complete overkill) battery. The DC-DC charger is triggered by the rear 12 volt live wire. I don't have any problem getting my battery back to 100%. I monitor all of this through a battery shunt and monitor on my aux battery. I've never actually paid attention to my starter battery voltage. If you've got the Renogy or other brand 30 or 50 amp chargers, it should be really fast to charge your 50 Ah battery to 100%.

From what you describe, it sounds like to me that the IGN wire is not triggering the charger correctly and that's why you're getting weird charging coming from the Jeep's smart alternator. If you've got one at hand, you may want to use a multimeter to verify that there is 12 volts coming from your ignition wire.
 

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Yes, I've got my DC-DC charger connected to a Renogy 170 Ah (complete overkill) battery. The DC-DC charger is triggered by the rear 12 volt live wire. I don't have any problem getting my battery back to 100%. I monitor all of this through a battery shunt and monitor on my aux battery. I've never actually paid attention to my starter battery voltage. If you've got the Renogy or other brand 30 or 50 amp chargers, it should be really fast to charge your 50 Ah battery to 100%.

From what you describe, it sounds like to me that the IGN wire is not triggering the charger correctly and that's why you're getting weird charging coming from the Jeep's smart alternator. If you've got one at hand, you may want to use a multimeter to verify that there is 12 volts coming from your ignition wire.
Okay, so you were right so far! The orange/pink stripe ignition in the footwell actually gets no power when I checked with my multimeter! Batt gets power and Aux4 so I've temporarily connected it to Aux4.

I will drive around and see what happens now, but I'm now wondering how it charges the lithium battery when the lithium wants to sit at 13.6+V and the car battery is happy sitting at 12.7?
How does it trigger the alternator to keep going?

Anyone else have a problem with no power on their ignition wire in the footwell? I tested fuse 50 and found power at the fuse (and the fuse was not blown but I swapped another 10A to test).
 

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Okay, so you were right so far! The orange/pink stripe ignition in the footwell actually gets no power when I checked with my multimeter! Batt gets power and Aux4 so I've temporarily connected it to Aux4.

I will drive around and see what happens now, but I'm now wondering how it charges the lithium battery when the lithium wants to sit at 13.6+V and the car battery is happy sitting at 12.7?
How does it trigger the alternator to keep going?

Anyone else have a problem with no power on their ignition wire in the footwell? I tested fuse 50 and found power at the fuse (and the fuse was not blown but I swapped another 10A to test).
That's what the DC to DC charger is for. It takes the 12V from the battery or alternator, and steps up the voltage for charging.

Sounds like you got your issue sorted, as it does help to have power going to the DC-DC charger. 😇
 

jlrubeinswaz

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The REDARC is a sealed system and can be mounted under the hood. I have it mounted on top of my spare battery in my 4Runner but that's not an option with the Genesis. I emailed Genesis and asked about using the REDARC and they said that it is complimentary to their product and will help the batteries charge faster as well as have solar input.

I want to use the REDARC so that I can try out this hood mounted solar panel to keep the battery topped off for the refrigerator.

https://www.cascadia4x4.com/product...vss-system-80-watt-hood-solar-panel-pre-order
I would not mount a DC to DC charger under the hood. Adding the engine heat will only reduce the output of the charger or severely shorten it's life.
 

jlrubeinswaz

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Looks like you got your setup down. I am still in planning and proof of concept phase. I need to eventually get to work since my factory batteries are looking like they are on their way out.

In terms of renogy it seems like they came out with their controller in the last 2 years. The devices are also made in china which makes me shy away from them. Although their specs are good i would rather not risk it personally. Redarc has been around for longer and it is built in australia and has been tested and proven in their harsh conditions.

For my purposes, 25Amp would be more than sufficient since i don't plan on going any bigger than 100 Ah battery.
I personally would stay away from Renogy. I have read a lot of negative reviews and high amount of returns from them.

https://www.bbb.org/us/ca/ontario/p...Q7WkpzDY_w4a3T0gUSMFOOBozA7zjQlq7Q1WLWeYSE8uU

https://www.trustpilot.com/review/renogy.com





Another good option is Victron Orion. You might want to take a look at 18 or 30 amp output. 30 amp is more expensive.

https://www.amazon.com/Victron-Orion-TR-Isolated-Charger-Supply/dp/B0851TPKV7/ref=sr_1_4?crid=PF1CWKHNRM0M&keywords=victron+orion+dc+to+dc+charger&qid=1662083460&sprefix=Victron+ori,aps,214&sr=8-4
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