GOODBYE EcoDiesel; HELLO FUEL EFFICIENCY!!!

[Dryver]

@Tredsdert

Not quite as good as your 5000+ mpg, but perhaps some day.

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[Deleted User 38384]

@Tredsdert

Not quite as good as your 5000+ mpg, but perhaps some day.

This must be a typo, correct?

How to you go from these insane MPG's to that?

 

[DewHawk]

This must be a typo, correct?

How to you go from these insane MPG's to that?

Worst means Dryver calculated the MPG correctly instead of calculating MPGe which factors all of the miles driven on electric into the equation. You jumped straight to easy mode so your worst numbers will blow that out of the water without question every time.

In all seriousness, I can't take figures like yours @Dryver seriously. It's a poor attempt to hide the reality of your real fuel mpg. Go to the page that shows the breakdown of your miles per tank and own the truth. Plugging in 60-90% of the time you drive is exactly what the 4xe is supposed to do on a routine basis to justify the 'efficiency' aspect of the hybrid system. That's how Jeep can justify selling it as a 'green' alternative to it's older powertrain options; plus they are taking advantage of the govt incentives while meeting the new efficiency standards for new vehicles.

If you're driving around not plugging in and just using the hybrid tech for the extra performance, you're only doing slightly better average fuel economy than the 3.6 V6 with similar performance to the 392 while lugging around 800lbs worth of extra weight. It's not a bad compromise when it works properly. There's plenty of people that still haven't had any issues with theirs or only minor problems. I know plenty of 4xe owners that are perfectly happy with that and think the extra fuel saving benefits when plugging in are just a nice bonus feature when they aren't traveling beyond the all electric range.

 

[Deleted User 38384]

@Tredsdert

Not quite as good as your 5000+ mpg, but perhaps some day.

There's also a couple of important things to note here as well.

I'm going to use his photos as reference:

Look at the distances driving (highlighted in red), but also look at how long between fuel ups (highlighted in green)

For instance December, 13 2023 - January 9, 2024, which mind you is 27 days between fuel-ups, almost four whole weeks, and in that time he drove 647 mi.

If you go further down his post, June 22, 2023 - June 24, 2023, that's two days between fuel-ups he drove 325 miles, and then filled up a whole tank, 14+ gallons. More than likely he traveled somewhere on the highway those days it didn't have a plug near him.

Just those two fuel-ups really identify what the vehicle is good for. If you look at where he's filling up most, Stow Circle K, he's doing a whole lot of city driving, meaning all EV.

It's not fair to count in fuel numbers if you're not using fuel. You need to be separating the two. Like shown in your June 2-day fuel up, when you're not doing city driving, you get decent mileage, but nothing as great as the EcoDiesel. The EcoDiesel is the opposite of the 4XE, it's not better than it, but it is better at something different, HIGHWAY DRIVING!

This truly is my biggest issue with many of the 4XE owners and why I made that video, and why I made this thread. The 4XE is a great vehicle if you do a shit ton of city driving, if you don't it's a terrible vehicle. Like this guy did 600 mi in 27 days, for me in the summertime I do that in 6 days. But I also do a shit ton of highway driving and country roads which have speeds in the 60s and 70s.

The 4XE is a great vehicle, if only the owners of them were more forthcoming with accurate data instead of producing these ridiculously stupid numbers which don't accurately depict the type of driving they have been doing.

Miles driven on gas should be calculated by fuel-ups, miles driven all electric should be calculated by plug-ins. You don't count the number of apples you've eaten in a week by factoring in the number of oranges you eaten as well. I'd love to see those numbers, were it differentiates the two types of driving commonly used in the 4XE's.

I should also note too, he fueled up 9 times in 2023... ?

I fueled up probably 60 or 70 times in 2023.

I also average 15,000 mi a year.

 

[Dryver]

I work 10 miles from home, so my typical day is no gas usage when it's warm and sunny when I'm driving. When it's dark and cold, the range suffers and I don't quite make the round trip entirely on electric, so use a bit of gas each day, hence the seasonal variation in my miles between fill-ups. When I get home, I plug in, walk the dogs, do a few chores, and can go another 20ish miles if we go out somewhere. On the weekends, I still generally stay within the electric range, but I do have occasional longer trips. The 4xe is perfect for my use.

The worst fuel mileage is a day when we made a trip to visit my wife's family, and yes, does reflect the true mpg when running on gas only. I would have been running about 80mph. If I dropped that by 10mph, it would be more like 23mpg. However, that is not my typical use case and is an outlier.

A diesel would be the worst choice for me because the majority of my trips are short. If I drove 100 miles round trip, it would be a much better choice for me, as it is for you.

I've had my 4xe 33 months and have 30,000 miles on it, so about 11k miles per year, really not too far off of your annual mileage.

Since it can take me a while to get through a tank of gas, I use non-ethanol. It's about as costly as diesel, but I don't have to use it. Call them both $4/gallon. If we both drove 15k per year, I'd be spending about $1200 less per year on fuel. Yes, I pay for electricity to make up the difference, but I haven't seen a huge impact there. What you aren't including in your cost to operate is DEF, so we could potentially call that a wash.

To recap, in city driving, you're paying for 21mpg + DEF and I'm paying for electricity. For highway driving, you're paying for 27mph plus DEF and I'm paying for 21mpg, but I could be buying that gas for perhaps $1.00 cheaper than diesel. Cost per mile on highway? Perhaps $.18 for diesel and $.14 for 4xe on ethanol and $.19 for non-ethanol.

Let's talk brakes. Mine almost never get used because of max regen. They look new at 30k miles. How do yours look?

Let's talk engine. At 100k miles, I'll have an engine with perhaps 35k miles of use. Yours will have 100k. Diesels last longer, so maybe that's a wash too.

Battery? I might have to replace it some day, but my wife's 2102 Prius still had the original battery at 150k miles and it still gets 45-50mpg average. Different animal, but representative. Even if my electric range gets pathetic, I can still run as a regular hybrid.

The bottom line is that we both have Jeep choices that we believe work best for us and I think that's fantastic. What I don't understand is why you get so butt-hurt over the mere existence of a vehicle you don't want to own, but others find to be a great fit.

 

[Deleted User 38384]

I work 10 miles from home...

...A diesel would be the worst choice for me because the majority of my trips are short...

Nuff said!

I honestly didn't read anything else you said, because this is all that matters.

The 4XE is perfect for you, that's quite clear, though why you would mislead people with bullshit MPG numbers is beyond me. But then again that's the problem with a lot of 4XE owners. Honesty is not their best policy.

You should be more forthcoming with what kind of numbers you're actually getting and instead of telling people you're getting a hundred plus MPG, be honest tell them what you're actually getting, factor in your plugins, and provide us with a MPGe number, you'll see a lot less people giving you shit about it.

 

[Dryver]

Nuff said!

I honestly didn't read anything else you said, because this is all that matters.

The 4XE is perfect for you, that's quite clear, though why you would mislead people with bullshit MPG numbers is beyond me. But then again that's the problem with a lot of 4XE owners. Honesty is not their best policy.

You should be more forthcoming with what kind of numbers you're actually getting and instead of telling people you're getting a hundred plus MPG, be honest tell them what you're actually getting, factor in your plugins, and provide us with a MPGe number, you'll see a lot less people giving you shit about it.

Good, we agree that we each have the best vehicle for us. Perhaps you need to read the rest of my post because you're towing your own line of crap as well and cherry picking the rest. Peace!

 

[Dryver]

How am I towing a line of crap?

I've never lied about what my MPGs are like you have.

There's really no need to read the rest of what you wrote, again my issue with the 4XE community is there bullshit MPG numbers. So as long as you stop misleading people, we're cool.

This is a joke thread guy, I'm making fun of the 4XE guys, not joining them!

And therein lies the problem. Maybe you should try making fun with the other owners.

The rest of my post had mainly to do with operating costs, which are no worse than yours, and actually better in most cases, but perhaps that's what your real beef is? You bought into the diesel dream and found it's not all it's cracked up to be by the other owners? I can see how that could make someone bitter.

 

[Diesel1776]

Thinking of trading in my EcoDiesel for a 4xe as well .... Just got the owner's manual in the mail to read up on before I commit

 

[Deleted User 38384]

And therein lies the problem. Maybe you should try making fun with the other owners.

The rest of my post had mainly to do with operating costs, which are no worse than yours, and actually better in most cases, but perhaps that's what your real beef is? You bought into the diesel dream and found it's not all it's cracked up to be by the other owners? I can see how that could make someone bitter.

I'm still waiting for you to produce your real numbers...

And that kids, is how you defeat a 4XE owner.

They always start off with their bullshit misleading numbers, and when that doesn't get them the response they're looking for, they start throwing out cost numbers and going on the attack, all the while never producing the one thing which will defeat them, the truth!!

 

[Dryver]

I'm still waiting for you to produce your real numbers...

And that kids, is how you defeat a 4XE owner.

They always start off with their bullshit misleading numbers, and when that doesn't get them the response they're looking for, they start throwing out cost numbers and going on the attack, all the while never producing the one thing which will defeat them, the truth!!

That's funny. I admitted very plainly and clearly that my MPG highway number without electric was 21 mpg. You obviously weren't paying attention, which doesn't surprise me as your whole goal is self-serving.

I followed up with operating cost info because at the end of the day, that's what really matters if making a deciding based on what you can afford.

It's easy to "win" when you're playing a one-person game and set the rules. Have fun now! 'Nuff said.

 

[DewHawk]

Oh boy. Here we go. Y'all might want some coffee for this.

I work 10 miles from home, so my typical day is no gas usage when it's warm and sunny when I'm driving. When it's dark and cold, the range suffers and I don't quite make the round trip entirely on electric, so use a bit of gas each day, hence the seasonal variation in my miles between fill-ups. When I get home, I plug in, walk the dogs, do a few chores, and can go another 20ish miles if we go out somewhere. On the weekends, I still generally stay within the electric range, but I do have occasional longer trips. The 4xe is perfect for my use.

Sensible. It's the exact use case Jeep is banking on to make the Wrangler a sustainable product going forward and bring new owners in from outside the Jeep brand.

The worst fuel mileage is a day when we made a trip to visit my wife's family, and yes, does reflect the true mpg when running on gas only. I would have been running about 80mph. If I dropped that by 10mph, it would be more like 23mpg. However, that is not my typical use case and is an outlier.

A diesel would be the worst choice for me because the majority of my trips are short. If I drove 100 miles round trip, it would be a much better choice for me, as it is for you.

I've had my 4xe 33 months and have 30,000 miles on it, so about 11k miles per year, really not too far off of your annual mileage.

Again, nailing the accuracy here on what the 4xe is good at and suffers with against the Diesel.

Since it can take me a while to get through a tank of gas, I use non-ethanol. It's about as costly as diesel, but I don't have to use it. Call them both $4/gallon. If we both drove 15k per year, I'd be spending about $1200 less per year on fuel. Yes, I pay for electricity to make up the difference, but I haven't seen a huge impact there. What you aren't including in your cost to operate is DEF, so we could potentially call that a wash.

To recap, in city driving, you're paying for 21mpg + DEF and I'm paying for electricity. For highway driving, you're paying for 27mpg plus DEF and I'm paying for 21mpg, but I could be buying that gas for perhaps $1.00 cheaper than diesel. Cost per mile on highway? Perhaps $.18 for diesel and $.14 for 4xe on ethanol and $.19 for non-ethanol.

Okay, now we're getting into the weeds. Your choice to run non-ethanol fuel isn't a bad thing but it does bring the fuel costs more in line with Diesel to a degree. Fuel costs can vary a ton based on location though. The lowest diesel in my area is $2.99 a gallon with the lowest UNL88 being $2.87 (according to my gasbuddy app at least) so the variation here is about .12 cents a gallon. If you run just mid grade with ethanol around here it's more like $2.57 a gallon so knock 30 cents off that if you wanna start really digging into numbers. A single canister of DEF runs about $20 so call it $40 to fill the tank completely to cover anywhere from 3000-5000+ miles before it needs a refill (again, there's a ton of variation here based on use case). Even at it's WORST case as suggested above, we're talking about just over a penny a mile in added cost. So, whats that make the average cost per mile? Negligible impact. We're talking an increase in annual fuel costs of $150 to run def in the worst case scenario. I could forgo a few trips for coffee and make that up in a heartbeat over the course of a year. Again, we're really digging to draw some kind of meaningful comparison here. Unless your electricity costs at the end of the year can really show a cost savings for the mileage you're doing annually vs straight gas, this is gonna be a real apples to oranges argument. There's no free lunch with PHEV's or EV's. That cost of not using gas/diesel is gonna be made up somewhere at some point during ownership. California is already finding that out the hard way. Ohio might not see it yet, but it'll happen eventually. We're already seeing it here in Colorado. No one's immune.

Let's talk brakes. Mine almost never get used because of max regen. They look new at 30k miles. How do yours look?

Let's talk engine. At 100k miles, I'll have an engine with perhaps 35k miles of use. Yours will have 100k. Diesels last longer, so maybe that's a wash too.

Battery? I might have to replace it some day, but my wife's 2102 Prius still had the original battery at 150k miles and it still gets 45-50mpg average. Different animal, but representative. Even if my electric range gets pathetic, I can still run as a regular hybrid.

This is starting to open a real can of worms. Brakes might look brand new but the impact of using max regen affects other components wear and tear. I can tell you as I actually had a good look at the trans fluid on my 4xe after less than 9000 miles of use, it was already starting to look like it was going to need a drain and fill at around the 30k mile marker. I suggest you take a look at yours and see just how dirty it is in there. You might be surprised seeing as it's the same fluid we use.

Yes, less engine hours/miles, but I'd argue harder use. Start/Stop use with the hybrid system is VERY stressful on internals. Unless you're changing your oil every 5000 miles or less, I'd be willing to bet the diesel is gonna look pretty stout compared to that 2.0L inside at the mileage you're suggesting. Having done 4 oil changes on 2 different 4xe's I owned myself, I cringe at the idea of following Jeep's recommended service interval. Even with those short intervals, the oil coming out looked like it came from the La Brea Tar Pits. I really wish I had sent off for an analysis to see what kind of $hit was really going on in there. You can color me shocked if someone in the 4xe community does so and finds perfectly normal return data.

Ahhhh here's where the monkey poo really hits the fan. The battery. This is a fun one because there's already been a few owners that have had there's replaced and got to see the repair estimate out of warranty. Keep in mind, Jeep doesn't warranty those packs for cell degradation. If you're still inside the window to get it replaced and think they're gonna do so free of charge because you're only getting 10-15 miles of range from a full charge, good luck. The system is an interesting one because it will always tell you 99-100% charge when in reality it's internally only getting something like 86% after something like 20-25k miles of use. The 4xe owners forum really dove into this a while ago with a couple of scan tools to monitor battery health and have found some very interesting data to track.
So if Jeep isn't gonna swap the pack under warranty (which in itself is a small marvel/nightmare for the hybrid certified techs) you can bet on a replacement cost in the $18-20k range. If I find the estimate sheet that backs that number up I'll be sure to share it. That alone was a small shock to me here about 3 months ago when I saw it posted up. If you can make up that difference in fuel savings before it needs to be replaced, I'd say it's not a bad trade off, but damn is it a big bill to pay all at once.

The bottom line is that we both have Jeep choices that we believe work best for us and I think that's fantastic. What I don't understand is why you get so butt-hurt over the mere existence of a vehicle you don't want to own, but others find to be a great fit.

Again, different strokes for different folks. I was one of you...twice. I'm not getting my pants in a wad over it. I just found out the hard way that having a Diesel in my life not only made more sense for my use case, it's a hell of a lot more practical from the maintenance side of things.

That's where the 4xe REALLY pissed me off. As someone that maintains his own vehicles and wrenches on multi million dollar fighter aircraft for a living, the restriction of not being able to handle hybrid/high voltage related maintenance/fixes on my own without serious specialized tools/equipment is a HUGE negative. Then, to top it off, the Jeep being stuck waiting on a hybrid tech to free up and fix mine at the dealer only to be stopped again because of parts availability, fix it eventually, then more than likely have me bring it back in AGAIN because something else broke or failed shortly after is truly a nightmare.

I will concede that the vast majority of owners don't have these issues with their 4xe's. Hell, my first one was a peach compared to my last. A one off sensor issue that was related to the $hit mopar 12v battery was the worst thing I dealt with on 4xe number 1. That's a huge win considering just how bad things CAN get if it decides to throw a fit. That's where number 2 really showed me what the 4xe struggles with compared to a normal gas or diesel JL. I honestly hope that Jeep's plan to upgrade/improve the 4xe in MY25 works out positively for them. This gen 1 4xe tech is a great start, but it's got a lot of teething issues to sort through before I would consider it reliable. Even then, I still wouldn't personally own another one.

 

[Deleted User 38384]

Here's a fun factoid for you guys.

The 4XE has a a 17.2 gallon fuel tank. Let's just give the benefit of the doubt and say that the wind is in your favor and maybe you remove the back seats and a lot of the weight from the Wrangler, you're running extra light. Let's say you're getting 23 MPGs on just fuel. Multiply that by the 17.2 gallon fuel tank, of which you'll never be able to actually use all of because the car will bitch at you and you'll have to fuel up before you hit that number. But let's just say for this instance that you can do 23 miles per gallon, and you get to use all 17.2 gallons.

Any 4XE owner who has gone further than 400 mi on one tank and is producing numbers they are citing as MILES PER GALLON (MPG), is a liar.

However if they are saying they've gone more than 400 mi on one tank of fuel, and are producing numbers they are citing as MILES PER GALLON EQUIVALENT (MPGe), and the numbers are crazy high, that's honesty right there.

See that's the thing a lot of 4XE owner's don't seem to understand, most of us are cool with MPGe's, those numbers are supposed to be high, they're not based on one type of fuel they're based on two types of fuel. However it's when y'all produce these ridiculous numbers and try and cite that it's gas only, without including your nightly fuel-ups from the plug, that's where we have issue with y'all.

Produce the right data or expect to be called out!!

 

[DewHawk]

MILES PER GALLON ELECTRIC (MPGe)

Small correction; Miles Per Gallon Equivalent. Sorry, just wanna make sure we keep the facts straight so the 4xe guys don't get twisted up over correcting us.

Something else to consider as well:

This is the actual captured data from my old window sticker on the 4xe. 4xe owners will obviously recognize this but we need to clarify some things here. First, take a look at that 49MPGe number and the bar graph below. An estimated 68KW-hrs per 100 miles. You can look up your local electricity rates and do the math based on time of day (most electric companies these days charge different rates based on time of day/demand). Mine was around $0.18 on average so that 100 miles estimate comes in right around $12.24. Not great, not terrible; puts me right at 12 cents a mile based on that data set. Then we come to the bar graph. 22 miles of all electric range on average with 370 miles of estimated gas only range (yes, I know the hybrid system still works despite showing 0 range on the battery, I used to be one of you so I know how it works). Tresdert's numbers are giving you the benefit of some extra mpg to extend that a bit more beyond the quoted 20mpg above.

So, throw that $12.24 for 100 miles in with the cost of mid grade at $2.57 locally for me over the same distance and we're talking $12.85 for 100 miles of gas. So I'm saving 61 cents over the course of 100 miles with electricity compared to gas based on that data.

Now, lets look at the diesel to keep things sane around here:

Again, this is the sheet from my diesel's window sticker. Straight away you'll see the difference in fuel use is nearly a full gallon at .7 per 100 miles, but we'll do the math anyway. Since I've already demonstrated that factoring DEF cost into the cost per mile is useless, we're gonna just say it's an extra penny to make everyone happy.

So, at $2.99 a gallon for diesel in my area we're looking at roughly $12.87 (it's $12.857 without the DEF tax or rounding up for those that care) for 100 miles based on this data set. Something that continues to be proven time and time again with these range estimates for the diesel however is their inaccuracy. 23mpg combined is something more likely to be done with 37's instead of the factory 33's whereas a 4xe with the same 37’s will struggle to maintain north of 17-18mpg. But again, fair is fair here so I'm not gonna argue it or dive into that. However, throwing that extra penny in for DEF didn't really make a hill of beans difference compared to mid grade with the 4xe, did it?

What did we learn here? At the end of the day it all comes down to range. Something the diesel has in abundance over the 4xe once the 4xe gets beyond the plug. Saving 60 cents every 100 miles over the course of 10000 miles isn't some mythical cost savings in my book compared to gas or diesel. Those annual fuel cost numbers that the EPA/DOT cite are pure fiction in the real world. It's how they can market their preferred methods of travel to the average consumer. I really started to notice this when I bought my first Hellcat Charger. I paid close attention to those estimated numbers and compared them to my actual averages. I was BEATING their estimates by 3-4 mpg combined on a regular basis with a big loud premium guzzling supercharged V8 sedan, and that was driving with a mix of tire smoking stupidity and conservative cruising. I’m sure there’s plenty of 4xe owners that will probably have more reliable fuel data to pull from that smokes the epa estimates, but I still haven’t seen that in abundance posted anywhere. Especially an apples to apples Rubicon vs Rubicon on stock KO2’s which is what I tried to pull together here for the sake of giving the 4xe a fair chance.

If you choose to use premium fuel in the 4xe the cost disparity only gets worse in my area. I feel the premium penalty is worth it to maintain optimum efficiency from the 2.0L Turbo. Trust me and reread your owners manual; 91 octane gas might not look like it's making a meaningful difference in your fuel economy but your engine and fuel system is gonna thank you in the long run if you just suck it up and don't choose to burn the cheaper mid grade all the time (For those that care, that figure jumps to $13.40 per 100 miles factoring premium costs locally).

If you’re the type of person that can squeeze the 4xe’s battery every year for optimum efficiency and really add that fuel savings up along with your tax incentives to make up that initial cost to own, good on you. If you drive highway miles beyond the battery range on a regular basis, it really does become a matter of justifying it for the extra power available. That was my primary justification and at the time it made perfect sense. Having an EcoDiesel now though, I’d like to go back and kick my own ass 2 years ago with today’s knowledge.

 

[JLeco2022]

I mean you can get DEF at some pumps way way cheaper than the box

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