Don't know what to do. 4xe thoughts??

[BXFXJeep]

Again, analysis isn't your strong suit. It's ok. Despite eliminating a large subsidy, sales only contracted 27%, yet EV sales in 2024 were net positive and added to the total number of EV's on the road in Germany.

Also, 2025 EV sales in Germany, so far, are up 35% year over year.

What you are doing is using nonsensical YOY %

2024 their BEV market plunged from 540,219 to 380,609.

So you are starting off 2025 yoy% based on a depressed 2024 sales number.

It is also well known that in the EU, fleet sales account for the bulk of EV sales, in Germany at least 60% of EV sales are fleet vehicles, most likely driven by ESG and all that fun ideology

So why is there a mild bump in 2025, are the corporations refreshing their green washing EV fleets, and worse polluting the used car market with high mileage junk EVs?

But instead of looking way over to Germany, which is very different from the United States in every way.

Why don't you look closer to Canada, which is much more similar to the United States, and Canada also have significantly cheaper electricity vs $7+ a gallon of gasoline.

Is it because Canadian have outright shunned EVs, and have no interest in them.

A significant number of EV sales in Canada is for ride-share, and people are only buying in places where there is very large government subsidies for EVs.

Almost every BEV I see is an Uber.

Sponsored

 

[Wbino]

TrailMax said:
They're only falling out of favor because windmills cause cancer. I also can't believe how many people have been brainwashed into thinking that we have better technology today than we did a hundred years, or that the infrastructure and technology for EV/PHEV/etc. will advance as more of them are on the road. People fall for way too much propaganda pushed out to demolish the stronghold some corporations have over some markets.

You can't expect anyone to take you seriously with statements like these. If you truly believe we don't have better technology than 100 years ago or that EV infrastructure and tech isn't advancing or hasn't advanced over the last 10 years, you've clearly fallen for some kind of propaganda campaign yourself, are severely misinformed, or both.

I think he was being sarcastic.

 

[NWJeepr]

Is it because Canadian have outright shunned EVs, and have no interest in them.

I can't take you seriously because of statements like this.

The trend in all the sales data is that EVs (both BEV and Hybrid) continue to sell. Of course sales are driven by incentives: A pop when incentives are introduced, a pop in sales when they are about to end, a valley in sales following removal of incentives, and then sales continuing thereafter.

EV depreciation is ultimately fueling EV adoption. You yourself have said they are the toys of the elite, however, what I'm seeing down here in the US is boatloads of lightly used Teslas being given away at a fraction of their new cost to people who want a fast car for cheap. The kind of people who might also have a jacked up Ford Superduty on low profile tires, if you know what I mean...

Like so many things, it's cost over ideology, and as soon as EV's hit true affordability, which they are beginning to do, it's all over for the EV haters.

 

[GinaC]

My 4xe is about a year old and I love it. It was built for me, and I'm pretty much the picture of the "little old lady who only drives to church on Sundays". So my use is very different from what yours would be.

That having been said, I'd never buy a used 4xe. My gut feeling is that the technology isn't really there yet to be sure that I wouldn't inherit someone else's problems.

 

[NWJeepr]

@BXFXJeep In order to see a clear picture you need to set your personal anger against BEV's aside and subsidies and mandates and all that BS, and put your capitalist hat on.

Ubers and rideshares and all fleet managers are figuring out that these cars are generally CHEAP to run over a couple hundred thousand miles. It started long ago when taxi fleets of Crown Vics started giving way to cars like the Prius... (wtf?). The batteries last forever and they're cheap to run compared to a tired old gas guzzling 4.6 paired to a slushbox 4-speed and 2.xx gearing. BEV's where they can be charged are the next level. Sure, there's the occasional battery failure and it's very expensive to replace, or the car's useful life ends there. But that's not the norm, and people are starting to figure it out. Prius are still popular in fleets but those are starting to give way to BEV's.

In my own BEV adventure, charging is cheap. Other than refilling washer fluid and adjusting the air pressure in the tires for seasonal changes, our EV has not required ANY maintenance (or repairs) over 2 years.

 

[Wbino]

almost every city got grants from government to buy them in the first place, and heres how its going so far from a 5 second search. notice its mostly about defects:

Summary Table

Agency / City	Roll Back Details
Des Moines (DART)	Retired entire fleet due to unreliability; operational ~60%; granted waiver of grant payback
LA Metro (G Line)	Replaced e-buses with CNG due to heat/stall issues and charging failures
Foothill Transit	High failure rate; returned vehicles to FTA; $5M loss
First Glasgow	Temporary withdrawal (structural problems); most buses returned to service
Albuquerque ART	Rejected defective e-buses; switched to clean-diesel
School Districts (U.S.)	Funding, delivery, and maintenance issues—some reverted to diesel

Lessons from DART’s Electric Bus Pilot Program
Published on: February 28, 2025

• About Public Transit
• DART FAQs

As part of an ongoing commitment to operate as efficiently as possible, DART became the first public transit agency in Iowa to unveil electric buses in October 2020. By testing electric buses through a pilot program, we aimed to better understand whether using electric vehicles would lower costs for bus operations, maintenance and repairs.
Using mostly grant funding from the Federal Transit Authority (FTA) with a local match provided by MidAmerican Energy, DART purchased seven electric buses in 2020 from Proterra, one of the top electric bus manufacturers in the United States and began running the electric buses on Local Route 60 – University/Ingersoll in January 2021.

DART operated the electric buses for about 18 months before staff made a difficult decision to remove all seven from service just prior to when their major manufacturer warranties expired. Numerous issues had developed in the buses’ short lifespan, including problems with suspension, wheelchair ramps, weatherproofing and doors. Proterra technicians visited DART frequently during the pilot program to try to address the problems, but they were never fully resolved, making the buses unsafe and costly to run.

“In a nutshell, it wasn’t a technology problem,” said DART Fleet Manager Keith Welch. “The chargers and batteries worked as designed. It was a bus build design problem that comes back to manufacturing.”

The Federal Transit Administration requires bus manufacturers to complete something called Altoona testing before buses can be sold. This process usually prevents situations like this from occurring. Pulling buses from service is highly unusual, and isn’t something DART has experienced before, but DART staff felt strongly that operating the electric buses was unsafe and chose to park them indefinitely.

“Safety-wise, I can’t put them on the road,” said Welch. “To pull a two-year bus off the road and never run it again – that's unheard of... but they’re unsafe to run. I have purchased dozens and dozens of buses over the last decade or so and this has never been an issue. Every other bus DART has purchased has been able to meet and, in many cases, exceed its useful life.”

Lessons Learned
Despite removing the electric buses from service in fall 2022, DART learned several important things through the pilot program:

• DART’s seven electric buses reduced energy costs. During the pilot program, DART spent an average of $0.26 on fuel per mile for its standard diesel buses, while the cost for the electric buses averaged around $0.21 per mile, a 20% savings in energy costs.
  
• DART’s seven electric buses emitted 60% less CO2 than diesel buses. A standard 40-foot diesel bus emits roughly 4.5 pounds of carbon dioxide (CO2) per mile, while the electric buses only released about 1.8 pounds of CO2 per mile.
  
• The battery technology on DART’s seven electric buses performed well in ideal weather but required more attention in extreme weather conditions. During stretches of temperate spring, summer and fall weather, DART’s electric buses ran more than 200 miles before a battery recharge was needed. When Des Moines experienced heavy snowfall and bitter cold temperatures, that range dropped to around 75 miles, as the extreme weather caused more strain on the batteries.

“With electric buses, the energy use is not from actually driving down the road,” DART Fleet Manager Keith Welch said. “It’s the energy to heat and cool the batteries.”

What's Next?
After the electric buses were removed from service, DART worked with Proterra to come up with a possible resolution. Just before reaching an agreement, Proterra filed for bankruptcy in summer 2023 and Phoenix Motor acquired the business.
DART isn’t the only public transit agency facing this challenge. DART met with officials from the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) and with Phoenix Motor to identify a path forward for the electric bus pilot program. It was determined in late 2024 that DART could dispose of the buses by selling or donating the parts to other agencies without having to repay the federal government for the portion of funding DART used to purchase the buses.
Electric bus technology is still relatively new and requires time to fully scale and manufacture. As manufacturers continue building electric buses, they make improvements with each new model. DART’s Fleet Manager, Keith Welch, had the opportunity to test newer electric buses in January 2024, during a week with two major snowstorms and subzero low temperatures. He said, “they didn’t have any issues. We ran them for seven days straight in the cold and they didn’t have to come back in and charge throughout the day. The test bus returned with a minimum of 40% charge still left each day and was charged overnight.”
Moving forward, DART will continue to explore innovative solutions that can reduce operating costs, lower carbon emissions and improve how it provides public transit service.

 

[BXFXJeep]

@BXFXJeep In order to see a clear picture you need to set your personal anger against BEV's aside and subsidies and mandates and all that BS, and put your capitalist hat on.

Ubers and rideshares and all fleet managers are figuring out that these cars are generally CHEAP to run over a couple hundred thousand miles. It started long ago when taxi fleets of Crown Vics started giving way to cars like the Prius... (wtf?). The batteries last forever and they're cheap to run compared to a tired old gas guzzling 4.6 paired to a slushbox 4-speed and 2.xx gearing. BEV's where they can be charged are the next level. Sure, there's the occasional battery failure and it's very expensive to replace, or the car's useful life ends there. But that's not the norm, and people are starting to figure it out. Prius are still popular in fleets but those are starting to give way to BEV's.

In my own BEV adventure, charging is cheap. Other than refilling washer fluid and adjusting the air pressure in the tires for seasonal changes, our EV has not required ANY maintenance (or repairs) over 2 years.

Lol personal anger to EVs

All I'm doing is stating basic facts, EVs are great in very limited use cases(rich people), it's not ready for mass adoption anytime soon.

Simple facts - there will always be a market for EVs, just like there will always be a market for Wranglers, and just like the Wrangler, EVs are also unsuitable for mass adoption, EV zealots however try to spin and justify a one size fits all.

Taxi crown vics for Prius makes a lot of sense, simply because HEVs are purpose built for extreme high mileage

City taxis goes from 12 mpg vs 40 mpg using a Prius, only an idiot will keep using a Crown Vic for such a purpose, also local city taxis do not need the huge space of a Crown Vic, huge gas guzzling Suburban etc are still available for that limited use.

The reason fleets and the likes of Uber use EVs are as follows.

Government incentives
Uber incentives
ESG incentives

Instant high mileage, and they are allowed to capitalize on aggressive depreciation write-offs over a short time, dumping junk EV on the used market after a few short years.

This pump and dump formula does not work for average mileage private owner.

The average Joe is better off with a regular gas car, the average Joe doesn't even benefit from a complicated HEV.

Psst you are not the average Joe.

 

[kah.mun.rah]

I would never get a 4xe again (and am glad mine is only a lease). Too many recalls, breakdowns (always one misfire away from the computer completely shutting down your engine with no possible way to override and restart), and limited fuel tank capacity for long trips.

 

[sentience]

Hi Everyone,

Getting ready to purchase a new jeep. I'm going back and forth between a Gladiator Rubicon and a Wrangler 4xe Rubicon. I currently have a 2014 jkur with 233,000 miles that's on her last legs and not looking to put money into it with this many miles. Either car I purchase will be a newer low mile's vehicle. Specifically, 2022-2023. I want the truck bed, but then I've driven a 4xe and i love the power, not too worried about all electric miles (it would get used), more getting it for the power. This vehicle will be used as my daily driver, but more importantly to get in and out of the the northern utah mountains, whether that be fishing, camping, or skiing. What would y'all do? If anyone owns a 4xe long term in the years I mentioned, can you give me a short review? Would you do it again? Thanks!

Going back to the original question…

Given the use case and the OP’s previous Jeep racking up 200k+ miles in ten years, I would steer them toward the Gladiator. (Actually, with that kind of mileage, I’d rather steer them towards a last gen Tacoma, or current Frontier.)

The 4xe is Jeep’s first attempt of electrification. And it shows - there were a lot of recalls early on, difficulties sourcing parts, difficulty training up techs. I assume some of the infrastructure problems have been resolved, but I don’t have much faith in the fundamental design. Having said that, I did purchase and lemon a 4xe, so I might be a little jaded. (One bad wiring harness, bad controller module, bad coolant heater, bad coolant heater (again))

All in all, I would suggest the Gladiator. Less complication, less number of things to go wrong. still shares a majority of parts with rest of Wrangler lineup, and every Jeep tech can work on it.

 

[TrailMax]

You can't expect anyone to take you seriously with statements like these. If you truly believe we don't have better technology than 100 years ago or that EV infrastructure and tech isn't advancing or hasn't advanced over the last 10 years, you've clearly fallen for some kind of propaganda campaign yourself, are severely misinformed, or both.

Did you hear a "whooshing" sound over your head when you typed that? I thought is was far enough out that it was obviously a sarcastic remark about EVs 'failing' 100 years ago means that they will never work, as well as a lot of other arguments against EVs that are put out there.

 

[Brad Hearing]

“With electric buses, the energy use is not from actually driving down the road,” DART Fleet Manager Keith Welch said. “It’s the energy to heat and cool the batteries.”

this part made me laugh out loud. thanks for that.


im not disputing the attempt to scale, im saying that EVs dont scale well and thus will end in failure like every time in the past.

hell, already people are seeing tesla vehicles for what they are: traps that keep you in the city and might set your garage on fire.

Between that and the resale value of almost every EV on the marketplace being worse than BMW's its clear that all the government money means nothing when reality strikes.

 

[NWJeepr]

Did you hear a "whooshing" sound over your head when you typed that? I thought is was far enough out that it was obviously a sarcastic remark about EVs 'failing' 100 years ago means that they will never work, as well as a lot of other arguments against EVs that are put out there.

Sometimes it takes my coffee some time to kick in, especially end of the week. The sarcastic comments sometimes blend in with the actual crazy stuff, there's enough of the crazy floating around these days.

 

[Brad Hearing]

Sometimes it takes my coffee some time to kick in, especially end of the week. The sarcastic comments sometimes blend in with the actual crazy stuff, there's enough of the crazy floating around these days.

indeed on the crazy front. there are so many people who think that EVs have a major grassroots demand when govt has been paying for it for years to make an artificial one.

 

[NWJeepr]

indeed on the crazy front. there are so many people who think that EVs have a major grassroots demand when govt has been paying for it for years to make an artificial one.

You're still welcome to be held hostage by oil companies. Also, the end of subsidies doesn't appear to be crushing the EV market like you had hoped.

 

[yokramer]

You're still welcome to be held hostage by oil companies. Also, the end of subsidies doesn't appear to be crushing the EV market like you had hoped.

Subsidies are only bad when they dont like what is being subsidized

Sponsored