Derringer vs. emission control warranty?

[rickinAZ]

Our earliest JL EcoDiesels are now approaching the end of the factory powertrain warranty, but we still have at least three years to go on the emissions (most importantly, DPF) warranty. I'm aware of Magnuson Moss, but who wants to get into a pissing match with Jeep over it? Is there any legitimate argument to the Derringer's 10% boost addition causing DPF damage? My guess is maybe, but it would be a stretch. I have iDash and PedalMonster installed, but my Derringer is in a drawer.

Jeep can be shoot-now-ask-questions-later on this kind of thing.

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[2nd 392]

How difficult would removal be should a possible warranty issue come up ?
My good service writer checked the Pedal Monster and NoLimitz JL for codes or footprints for potential warranty issues, their were none.
I don’t even bother to unplug them.

 

[rickinAZ]

How difficult would removal be should a possible warranty issue come up ?
My good service writer checked the Pedal Monster and NoLimitz JL for codes or footprints for potential warranty issues, their were none.
I don’t even bother to unplug them.

The Derringer connections for the EcoDiesel are VERYING challenging. It's one of those things that you are happy to never repeat.

 

[2nd 392]

The Derringer connections for the EcoDiesel are VERYING challenging. It's one of those things that you are happy to never repeat.

I would then consider the potential cost of the “warranty” repair if declined and act accordingly. My guy says he “looks the other way” if at all possible…. definition of “look the other way” not confirmed with a warranty claim though.

 

[rickinAZ]

No other opinions on this? Come on guys. There has to be a whole slew of you in this exact position. Fess up.

 

[JeepinChamp]

I would bet that if you checked the warranty statement for your vehicle (any vehicle) it will explicitly state that it is a violation of federal law and emissions warranty to modify engine controls at all.

This is straight out of the diesel warranty booklet:

'Tampering with the emissions system' = any fueling or air control modifications.

That being said, Banks is generally pretty conservative in their parts/tuning and it is unlikely to cause any issues while inside of remaining warranty.

If the dealer knows the Derringer was installed and is looking to get out of a warranty claim, then that will be a problem. Also, if the dealer knows about the modification their response will probably depend on Stellantis's policy towards investigating/auditing claims.

 

[rickinAZ]

I would bet that if you checked the warranty statement for your vehicle (any vehicle) it will explicitly state that it is a violation of federal law and emissions warranty to modify engine controls at all.

'Tampering with the emissions system' = any fueling or air control modifications.

That being said, Banks is generally pretty conservative in their parts/tuning and it is unlikely to cause any issues while inside of remaining warranty.

If the dealer knows the Derringer was installed and is looking to get out of a warranty claim, then that will be a problem. Also, if the dealer knows about the modification their response will probably depend on Stellantis's policy towards investigating/auditing claims.

Subsequent to posting this morning's entry I went to the dealer to speak directly with the Service Manager. I framed it as a two-part question:

• Powertrain Warranty (he was leaning towards it would definitely raise a red flag).
• Emmissions Warranty (he was leaning towards it might raise a red flag).

What was your source for this definition?
"Tampering with the emissions system' = any fueling or air control modifications."
Because the Derringer impacts the MAS and FRP which qualifies it as a fuel or air control modification.

Looking at it from the Manufacturers point of view, they build in a safety margin with respect to boost levels. Banks (and others) create performance by pushing the envelope on Jeep's safety margin. That's easy for them to do; they aren't funding the warranty claims.

I came away thinking proceed with extreme caution.

 

[JeepinChamp]

....

What was your source for this definition?
"Tampering with the emissions system' = any fueling or air control modifications."
Because the Derringer impacts the MAS and FRP which qualifies it as a fuel or air control modification.
....

That statement is mostly opinion as the only source that could definitively answer would be Stellantis. But... I work in an industry that deals with customers who tune (emissions intact), delete, or otherwise modify fueling and air delivery for off-highway diesel engines. I am on the dealer side of things now and have to make warranty related decisions based on the facts presented and when I worked for our OEM, I was in similar conversations.

From an OEM perspective: when certifying an engine to meet regulations, there is a very specific set of criteria for engine mapping to ensure compliance over the life of the engine. The assumption would be that any engine operating outside of the OEM criteria would result in possible emissions violations because it's not certified. They have no idea what PM, NOx, HC, CO, etc. tailpipe emissions would be from a g/kWh standpoint.

If a modification, like a Derringer, truly leaves no footprint then its probably safe to say that your chances of running into warranty issues is pretty slim.

 

[Wrangler man]

Was just speaking with a technician from Banks today and asked exactly what does the Derringer change/enhance while operating the EcoDiesel. His simple off answer was boost. My second answer was, if I'm traveling long distance would I experience increased or less MPG using a Derringer. Increase boost similar to depressing further down on accelerator requires more fuel and more air. Results, better performance but not a increase in MPG. I do not see how an increase in boost has any reflection of someone or something tampering with emissions, as implied and mentioned in previous comment. Agree with statement "leaves no footprint" and involves zero
tampering just plug and play. Definitely do not see any correlation whatsoever on how and installation of the plug and drive Banks Derringer could or would be considered tampering with the emissions, as stated in the manual supplement.
"any fueling or air control modifications" I believe was merely stated but not the language used or referred to or written in the diesel supplement

 

[Neutrino]

The banks system does indeed manipulate signal's to increase boost. Boost refers to air pressure going to the intake manifold. This is why Banks suggests removing it before going to a dealership.

Anything that manipulates, interrupts and resends information along the OEM wiring to modules can be a reason to void a warranty. That includes the Tazer, Throttle manipulators, Banks and so on.

Leaves no footprint refers to that fact that the unit can be added and removed from the vehicle with the onboard computers not being aware of there is something there or not.

I always play it safe and remove anything I have added to the OEM wiring harness except for my ScanGauge 3 that connects to the OBD port. It's just a monitor with the ability to read codes. Yes, it may not be necessary for basic service but I would rather not push my luck especially if comes down to warranty work.

 

[rickinAZ]

Was just speaking with a technician from Banks today and asked exactly what does the Derringer change/enhance while operating the EcoDiesel. His simple off answer was boost. My second answer was, if I'm traveling long distance would I experience increased or less MPG using a Derringer. Increase boost similar to depressing further down on accelerator requires more fuel and more air. Results, better performance but not a increase in MPG. I do not see how an increase in boost has any reflection of someone or something tampering with emissions, as implied and mentioned in previous comment. Agree with statement "leaves no footprint" and involves zero
tampering just plug and play. Definitely do not see any correlation whatsoever on how and installation of the plug and drive Banks Derringer could or would be considered tampering with the emissions, as stated in the manual supplement.
"any fueling or air control modifications" I believe was merely stated but not the language used or referred to or written in the diesel supplement

I have a question about footprints left behind. Many of us have the iDash, and you may have noticed a resetable min/max log. I used that log to determine the increase in boost. If I recall, it pegged the needle at roughly 27lb stock and at roughly31lb at Derringer's level 6. Does the Jeep somehow capture that data? And...even if the Derringer was removed for a dealer visit, wouldn't it beg the question "how did your boost footprint get so high?" Or, am I giving my Jeep credit for being smarter than it really is?

 

[JeepinChamp]

Banks answer that it only increases manifold air pressure is, in my opinion, not the whole story.

More power = more fuel and I would bet that they're messing with rail pressure as without programming, there's probably not a way to increase injector duration or timing. Increasing boost alone won't do anything on a lean-burn engine besides maybe change the torque rise percentage.

 

[Neutrino]

I have been in the low 30's of boost stock. I don't think any dealership will look at stored boost pressures and say you tampered with this. If the computers even store that info. I do know that forensics can pull historical data from a vehicles computers so who knows what is stored in there.

 

[Deleted User 38384]

I would recommend to everyone who currently owns a 3.0 ecodiesel, to do what you want to your vehicle, just don't post about it here or anywhere for that matter..

It's hard to get warranty work done on parts you don't have anymore.

 

[rickinAZ]

That statement is mostly opinion as the only source that could definitively answer would be Stellantis.

You are correct but...

Just to be clear, I'm not asking because I want to "get away with anything"; I just want what's fair. I went to the Service Manager because they would likely be the arbitor. If I put parts on that truly create stress that is directly responsible for causing an issue (i.e. Magnuson Moss), I am responsible, and should pay the bill. Conversely if my Derringer is blindly blamed, to avoid a warranty obligation for financial reasons on Jeep's part, that's not fair. I once had a dealer try to blame an CEL on my iDash to deny warranty service.

It's basic Golden Rule stuff.

I can see where increased boost, going beyond Jeep's safety margin, could crater a transmission due to excessive torque (powertrain warranty), but I don't see that it could clog a DPF (emissions warranty).

Honesty has to work in both directions.

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