Auxiliary Battery 100%

[Rhinebeck01]

Will post this here today in this battery related thread... and delete after sale ends..

FYI
For all that want a Noco 10 at a very good price ... it is on Cyber Monday sale right now for
$79.96. Usually sells for about $100.
https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GENIUS10-Fully-Automatic-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B07W3QT226/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1Z6MSFBPR75A5&keywords=noco+10&qid=1700917398&sprefix=noco+10,aps,94&sr=8-1&ufe=app_do:amzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840

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[jeepoch]

Jeepoch, are you using a BatteryTender charger/maintainer?

Yes, from my last post, "I use a Smart 15A Quick Charger / 3A Maintainer". Mine is an EverStart Maxx.

I'd certainly recommend the Charger/Maintainer that @Rhinebeck01 has highlighted in his most recent post above. The NOCO Genius 10 is even better than the one I have. It explicitly accounts for different battery technologies.

Jay

 

[Spinrite]

Not using your seatbelt so the ESS doesn't work and/or turning it off, wouldn't that be the same concept?

It is pretty much the same thing. I have a tazer JL and i been talking with Zauto about programming the module for ess to be activated without wearing the seatbelt and they said they will looking to add this in the next firmware updates

 

[Spinrite]

Wow! Do you turn off your auto start/stop when driving or have it disabled by any other device? If not, I wonder if we drive them the way they were designed actually improves the lifespan.

The only method ess gets disabled is either i don't wear my seatbelt or the cold weather winter days anything say colder then say -7 celuis the ess is deactivated. As the priority is keeping operating conditions of the jeep and interior cabin warm for comfort of the occupants.

 

[Spinrite]

For those of us here that can't stand ess and deactivate it by modding, running the jeep a lot by turning off the ess with the dash switch, or not buckling up ?. That auxiliary battery will never get properly cycled - charging and discharging, to maintain its life. To me keeping the aux battery functioning during the years of operation can give us indicators to how batteries are, healthy or bad. We get these signals from the Jeep EVIC system to let us know such, ess is not ready because there's issues in the circuit because of the aux batt low voltage, or our aux features aren't functioning properly, etc. Or owner has cut or removed the seatbelts from the Jeep

 

[Spinrite]

2 things:
first: i have no reason to believe that the dealership would replace your failing batteries with anything other than the same junk JL(U)s came with new, so i wouldn't expect any different performance from the replacements. (and experience has shown that batts tied together will pull each other down if one fails, so they need to be replaced together.)

secondly; could it be that your "pampering all these batteries" by charging them multiple times a month is actually causing the problem?
i don't know anyone whose batts have died as fast as what you report, and i don't know anyone who charges a vehicle multiple times/month, unless perhaps there's already something wrong with their batts.

in my case, when i started getting weird error messages less than 2 years after i got my J**p, knowing that OEM batts suck, and having seen so many reports of ESS systems weirding out when either of the batts were getting tired, i replaced both batts with the best AGMs i could get from a major retailer in the areas i was most likely to travel. since then, no troubles. (and even though i don't drive my J**p daily, i have never used any kind of charger, and would not likely do so except as a temporary measure if i were dealing with a problem.)

Its more likely our aux batts aren't being exercised properly or cycled the way they are designed to be used. A good analogy is lets go through our daily lives without moving and expending much energy and being sedentary, its the same thing with the heartbeat of our Jeeps, the battery.

 

[Spinrite]

2 things:
first: i have no reason to believe that the dealership would replace your failing batteries with anything other than the same junk JL(U)s came with new, so i wouldn't expect any different performance from the replacements. (and experience has shown that batts tied together will pull each other down if one fails, so they need to be replaced together.)

secondly; could it be that your "pampering all these batteries" by charging them multiple times a month is actually causing the problem?
i don't know anyone whose batts have died as fast as what you report, and i don't know anyone who charges a vehicle multiple times/month, unless perhaps there's already something wrong with their batts.

in my case, when i started getting weird error messages less than 2 years after i got my J**p, knowing that OEM batts suck, and having seen so many reports of ESS systems weirding out when either of the batts were getting tired, i replaced both batts with the best AGMs i could get from a major retailer in the areas i was most likely to travel. since then, no troubles. (and even though i don't drive my J**p daily, i have never used any kind of charger, and would not likely do so except as a temporary measure if i were dealing with a problem.)

I don't believe in this unless we don't use our rides on a regular basis.

 

[Spinrite]

I’m not even sure what the Aux battery does. It’s only 12AH. Looks just like the battery that I used in my Harley Davidson. Additionally I’ve always read that with Dual battery systems both batteries should be the same size.

I wouldn't worry and don't overthink about the unequal sizes, if there was valid concerns with the design the jeep engineers wouldn't have done it. You think I'm worried about that? On consumable parts is where car manufacturers chinch out and these can give us headaches with bugs with our electronic features because the batteries can't power a proper load. Be more concerned the brand and qualities of the batteries your buying to install in the Jeep, period. It's all about quality of of the replacement parts we install on our Jeeps. Get rid of the garbage factory battery and replace it a quality agm battery and you'll be golden.

 

[jeepoch]

Totally agree, nearly all of my ESS troubles have basically been solved with new, modern, AGM batteries. However, I'm right near the one year mark of having this set. In the past I was replacing the factory OEM supplied units (from the dealership) like chicklets. More than once per year with the typical Cluster EVIC ESS complaints such as 'Battery Charging' and 'Battery Protection Mode' issues.

However, I am the true Jeeper oddball. Even though I despise the JL's ESS design, I do keep it enabled and enjoy it (when it does work). It keeps me on my toes on letting it engage (or not) when stopping at traffic signals. I really remain more lazer focused on the intersection dynamics and overall situational awareness at playing the 'Seven Second' rule. Do I keep the engine running before the light turns green or hedge that I can save fuel (and the tailpipe emissions) if I let it auto stop the engine. I've become very good at minimal brake pedal pressure holding the vehicle stopped if I decide to keep the motor running. To the techie nerd in me, it's fun. Or at least way more so than just mind-numbingly losing the meaning of life while stopped at red lights. I have 32 of these bad-boys on my normal commute. So playing with the Jeep is better than letting these many (many) minutes per day go to complete waste.

Also the AUX is supplying all of the accessory power to the radio, lights, power chargers, cabin fans, etc. when the engine is Auto Stopped. It's relieving the Main battery to just reserving power for engine cranking as it starts back up. So (in theory), the Main is dedicated for engine start and vehicle control, Engine, Transmission and overall Powertrain Module management and the AUX is then picking up responsibility for powering everything else. At least when the engine is stopped. Of course with the ignition running, they both contribute since they're connected in parallel. However, it's really the alternator (or generator if eTorque equipped) that's supplying the most energy when the motor is spinning.

Also, @Rhinebeck01 thanks for the heads-up on the Amazon Cyber Monday deal. I just ordered the NOCO Genius 10. They said they'll even ship it today. So I hereby bequeath my EverStart Maxx to my wife's GMC Terrain. I can now charge both our vehicle's batteries at once. Woo-hoo...

An early Christmas present to myself. Happy Holidays.
Jay

 

[zouch]

wow; that was a lot of words without really any new information.

point is; you're going through batts faster than anyone i can remember seeing reporting here, and fussing with charging them more than anyone i can remember hearing of.
we see reports of people who leave their vehicles sitting for months at a time and don't have any problems starting, and others that use theirs daily and don't have any problems.
comparatively, i gotta' say; looks like your routine isn't working out for you very well.

you mention daily driving, and lots of stops on your commute. unless there's something else unusual about your regular usage (as you said, "outside expected anticipated usage"), namely that you have an *extremely* short commute, i suspect you're expecting too much from the POS factory batts, overthinking what's going on ("sense that my alternator is working harder than usual"?) and possibly contributing to the early failures of your batts with the extra power cycles.

i know you've got more years on yours that many of us, but i'd be curious to hear what happens if you were to just put a couple of quality AGMs in there and just drive it.

@zouch,

Battery maintainers are used to supplement the battery's charge. A reputable Smart Charger even helps condition them so that they hold their charge state longer and even helps them recharge more effectively during their normal lifespans. Most premature battery degradation occurs when battery charge cycles or charge conditions fall outside expected anticipated usage. Batteries each have their own 'natural' charging characteristics and behaviors. The physics and chemical processes involved with acquiring, storing and providing electrical energy is not trivial. Each and every battery manufactured has it's own unique conditions. Especially different types and sizes.

I use a Smart 15A Quick Charger / 3A Maintainer when I sense that my alternator is working harder than usual at trying to charge both batteries. Since these two dissimilar sized units have different charging rates and discharge characteristics it's very difficult for the Engine Controller to manage the alternator's output when either battery doesn't charge consistently. Cluster EVIC Battery Voltage readings that are routinely in the mid to high 14V range is very indicative of charging trouble.

So letting a Smart Charger help the system charge them externally overnight is not a bad thing. However, in order to charge them properly, each battery needs to be charged independently (and thus disconnected). The vehicle's ESS design is certainly not going to provide for that condition. While the ignition is on, both batteries are connected in parallel until an Auto Stop ESS event is activated. (And during a small time window before cranking to allow the Intelligent Battery Sensor and Engine Controller to sense each battery's voltage uniquely.) However, when an ESS event is active the engine is stopped. So at no point can these batteries be charged properly (whatsoever) under normal driving situations.

So to be 'religious' about charging things properly, yes I disconnect the Main and Aux Negatives and charge each battery independently one at a time. In this way the Smart Charger / Maintainer is able to monitor and control the charging current as properly required for each battery (at their own rate). I typically do the AUX first since it charges faster, I then leave the Main to charge overnight. I know when the charger is finished, it indicates that it's 'Floating' and no longer pumping in any charge current.

I certainly do this more often as the frequency of Cluster EVIC ESS 'Battery Charging' and 'Battery Protection Mode' complaints start to go up. Or when the 'Battery Voltage' remains excessively high.

My assessment is that this is a design flaw and only marginally works if superior (expensive) batteries are used. By introducing cheap OEM units only exacerbates the design deficiencies of charging these batteries in parallel.

That's essentially the genius behind the dual battery systems from Genisys and others. They allow the Batts to be disconnected and both charged and discharged separately. Unfortunately, I despise their six cycle ESS limit. I have about 5x that number of stop lights on my daily commute.

So I do take all of this into account. And in summary the JL ESS system as federally mandated is the biggest piece of shit (POS) implementation of any electrical system on any vehicle ever sold at any point in the history of automobiles.

They should instead of naming it ESS, it should have been named EDSEL. Nah, on second thought the JL's ESS actually makes the Ford Edsel look fantastically awesome in engineering comparison. At least that jalopy had a good solid working charging system.

Jay

 

[Sand Flea]

For all that want a Noco 10 at a very good price ... it is on Cyber Monday sale right now for
$79.96. Usually sells for about $100.

Thanks for the link.
Just ordered one for my FL car that sits in the summer and is my DD in winter.
I pull the battery when I leave in late spring and this maintainer will be perfect to keep the battery healthy in storage.

 

[KCSgtMaj]

I’ve watched the voltage during an ESS episode. Voltage drops considerably. Less than 12.2V which is considered 50% and a rate that you never want to get below in a lead acid battery. I’m not really concerned about it, just curious why two batteries with two completely different charging parameters with no separation when the ignition is off. One can drain the other when trying to equalize. Based on my own experiences.

 

[jeepoch]

wow; that was a lot of words without really any new information.

point is; you're going through batts faster than anyone i can remember seeing reporting here, and fussing with charging them more than anyone i can remember hearing of.
we see reports of people who leave their vehicles sitting for months at a time and don't have any problems starting, and others that use theirs daily and don't have any problems.
comparatively, i gotta' say; looks like your routine isn't working out for you very well.

you mention daily driving, and lots of stops on your commute. unless there's something else unusual about your regular usage (as you said, "outside expected anticipated usage"), namely that you have an *extremely* short commute, i suspect you're expecting too much from the POS factory batts, overthinking what's going on ("sense that my alternator is working harder than usual"?) and possibly contributing to the early failures of your batts with the extra power cycles.

i know you've got more years on yours that many of us, but i'd be curious to hear what happens if you were to just put a couple of quality AGMs in there and just drive it.

You didn't read my post very well. I did infact replace both my batteries, about a year ago from the factory OEM junk to really good AGM's. I have yet had any issues since.

I gave you the backstory of when I let the dealership take care of it, they did anything but. Only when I departed the Mopar crap and started taking care of things on my own has the ESS been more reliable.

I'm at the point where I've had these newer AGM's longer than any other set of batteries that I've ever had in this JL. My point is:

Is it time to start worrying? Or how long will this set hold up? I've yet to experience the 2 to 3 years of longevity that others have observed. At no time within the four years of ownership have I had any battery last longer than 9 months. One set was just 6. So this is the longest I've not had to replace the batteries. Good, bad or indifferent.

I'm just wondering how long this current set will perform well. Whether my JL just eats them, I am somehow much harder on them, or I just have an uncommon daily commute cycle, I've yet to share the same experience of others (perhaps you included).

Let me reiterate and be more clear. As of right now, I still have good ESS functionality on this set for about a year now. The primary difference being that I'm using much better than the factory or Mopar replacement batteries and staying the hell away from the dealership altogether.

Jay

 

[zouch]

either i didn't make myself clear enough (or you didn't read my post very well);
i said "put a couple of quality AGMs in there and just drive it. "

sounds like you're following everyone advice on the batts now.

continuing to mess with all the additional charging if you're not having any issues now sounds like a 'Solution in search of a problem'.

You didn't read my post very well. I did infact replace both my batteries, about a year ago from the factory OEM junk to really good AGM's. I have yet had any issues since.

I gave you the backstory of when I let the dealership take care of it, they did anything but. Only when I departed the Mopar crap and started taking care of things on my own has the ESS been more reliable.

I'm at the point where I've had these newer AGM's longer than any other set of batteries that I've ever had in this JL. My point is:

Is it time to start worrying? Or how long will this set hold up? I've yet to experience the 2 to 3 years of longevity that others have observed. At no time within the four years of ownership have I had any battery last longer than 9 months. One set was just 6. So this is the longest I've not had to replace the batteries. Good, bad or indifferent.

I'm just wondering how long this current set will perform well. Whether my JL just eats them, I am somehow much harder on them, or I just have an uncommon daily commute cycle, I've yet to share the same experience of others (perhaps you included).

Let me reiterate and be more clear. As of right now, I still have good ESS functionality on this set for about a year now. The primary difference being that I'm using much better than the factory or Mopar replacement batteries and staying the hell away from the dealership altogether.

Jay

 

[jeepoch]

@zouch,

Yep, preventive maintenance. Something you obviously don't believe in. Am I searching or minimizing the potential of a problem that's been plaguing me for a long time? You bet.

I enjoy performing maintenance on my vehicles. It's part of the fun of owning them. Especially when I've discovered a way to keep something functioning properly due to really poor design. Am I professional mechanic? Nope, but I do what my skill and ability provides.

I need not defend my approach to ESS operation to you. I really do enjoy it overall but seriously hate it's implementation. So I've described my experience and the solutions I've invested in maintaining it for the possible benefit of those who may also be struggling with this as well.

You're so narrow sighted that it must just be me in search of a problem. Have you read the thousands of other ESS complaints in many dozens of ESS related threads within this forum? Of course not.

I'll keep responding to your trolls. How do you stand up to bullies? Is this what I'm needing to do here?

So yes, I'll continue to share my JL knowledge and experience with this fine community of JL people. You included. If you don't like my input, tune to another thread. Read about someone else's not so perceived ESS struggles. Do your own searching for trouble.

Regards,
Jay

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