Adding an Aftermarket Amp(s)

[JEEF]

@Sting_NC_USA

There’s a lot of good information there. Thank you for your help.

I realize that you don’t have the Alpine system.

I know I’m going to have to use some type of LOC. I’m just not sure which one yet. I’ll probably end up calling PAC and JL Audio and asking them some questions. I’m not sure when I’ll be able to get around to calling them, but I will definitely report back here with what I find out.

It does make sense that I would get all of the chimes, etc. through the JL Fix with it being installed after the factory Alpine amp. If it’s getting to the speakers, it’s going to get to the Fix.

On JL’s product page for the Fix units, it says they will except line-level, or speaker-level inputs. I’m just not sure what’s going on with the Alpine system and its separate amplifier.

When I look at the wiring diagrams that were posted on here somewhere, it appears that there are four audio signals coming out of the factory head unit and going into the amplifier. Left and right front and left and right rear. PAC’s product page for the Amp Pro says something about the head unit putting out fixed, line level signals to the amplifier and that the volume is controlled over CAN bus.

I know, I’m pretty obsessive compulsive about this type of stuff. LOL.

I know that a lot of factory audio systems (the alpine system included) do things like roll off the bass response as you turn the volume up. It may do other things as well like time alignment and I think that the EQ/sub level of the system changes when you remove the hardtop also. I think it changes when you unplug the connector at the back. I could be wrong about that though. I just thought I heard that somewhere on these forums. There may also be some loudness curve going on also.

I will probably end up having to get an RTA and check some of this stuff out, unless the guys at PAC and JL Audio know for sure what’s going on.

My hope is that the four signals coming out of the factory head unit are flat and level and that any processing of the EQ and that sort of thing is done in the amplifier. That way I could just use the PAC by itself as pull the signal before the amp. If not, I may have to do like you suggested in your response to my #4 and use the Amp Pro and feed that signal into a Fix to level out the system EQ and any time alignment, phase stuff, etc.

I really don’t want to use the Fix after the amplifier. I know for a fact that the bass is rolled off when you turn the volume up and I would really like to use my factory volume knob. I don’t want to have to set my volume to the point right before the bass rolls off in order to calibrate the Fix and then use the Fix or DSP volume knob. If I can pull the signal before the amplifier (if that is where the factory processing is taking place) then I think that would be a better way to go to get a clean signal for my processor/DSP.

I’ve been looking into the TWK processor a little bit more and I don’t think that you can use them with the VXi hub. The VXi amps have 2 JLid ports on them. Comm and Control. The Fix units only have one for control. That’s a bummer. I’m sure their marketing department came up with that idea. They want to push you into the VXi amps. I do think you can use 2 TWK units together, you just have to adjust them in 2 separate Tün sessions and use one knob for each unit to change presets. I’m just not sure if the audio signals going into them would come out timed perfectly. The VXi hub synchronizes the digital clocks in those amplifiers.

Like I said, I’m kind of obsessive about this sort of thing. i’m just going to have to call JL.

I should probably just use the VXi amps. They are just so expensive and won’t quite put out the power that I was hoping to run in this system. not for the subs anyway. I may just have to dial it back a bit for the sake of convenience.

I think these VXi amps are about the coolest things out right now. JL knows that and that’s why they get so much for them.

I wish they made some larger monoblocks that looked like the VXi amps, but without the processing since you can already send a processed signal out of the multi-channel ones.

Thanks for the link to that thread by @NYknowledge. I’ll look into that Metra AX-DSP-X unit as well.

I’m not sure if what I’m looking to do is going to be possible or not. I just want a clean, flat signal from the factory head unit that doesn’t have any time alignment, bass rolloff, or any other funny stuff going on, but still has the factory chimes, nav audio, etc.


Thanks again and I’ll report back whenever I have any more info.

-Jeff

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[StaindReality]

Question. On the line out converter. Do I connect the remote switch that it has along with the negative and positive on the converter to the amp. Or just the neg. pos. To amp and run a remote switch line out to the cigaret lighter up front for the amp? Does it matter? Wouldn’t the remote switch work if used from converter to amp since when the Jeep is off. No power goes to speakers? I guess I don’t see why I wouldnt use it instead of running a remote switch all way to lighter from amp instead

 

[Sting_NC_USA]

Question. On the line out converter. Do I connect the remote switch that it has along with the negative and positive on the converter to the amp. Or just the neg. pos. To amp and run a remote switch line out to the cigaret lighter up front for the amp? Does it matter? Wouldn’t the remote switch work if used from converter to amp since when the Jeep is off. No power goes to speakers? I guess I don’t see why I wouldnt use it instead of running a remote switch all way to lighter from amp instead

David, the LOC's "Remote" wire can be tapped into the same switched wire you're using for the amp's remote turn on source, assuming you're mounting them close together and the source is providing a full 12V. I generally use the front 12V Outlet's modular plug as a source for the remote wiring and a direct battery connection for all 12V constants. For the ground, just find one of the Jeep's provided grounding posts.

If you don't already have one, it's good practice to run a fused, 4ga or larger wire from the battery to the area where your amp and accessories are located. At the end of that battery wire, consider installing a distribution block, so that you're able to run your amp, and any other 12V accessories, from the block instead of connecting the extra stuff directly to your amp.

 

[It’ll do]

Ok I just finished installing a set of C2-650 in Metra pods in my jlu. I used the wires behind the kick panel speakers for the inputs of the crossover ( installing a 47ohm resistor). I ran new wires from the crossover to the woofer and tweeter. I‘m not using the factory tweeter wires right now. My issue is the new speakers are very muffled and there are no highs out of the tweeters at all. Any suggestions?

 

[Goosed]

Update after a couple months of use on my system:

Installed a Polk 4 channel amp @125x4 rms to front and rear C2’s JL audio component speakers.

1000w JL Audio amp for the JL 10w7 sub.

Routed through the PAC audio interface.

So far it is obviously so much better than stock, the sub is insane if you want it to be, and I am happy with the JL component tweeters.

I still, after adjust gains and reducing the PAC to 3v pre amp settings, deal with a hiss. This is disappointing but tolerable.

One of my JL Component Mids blew, and of course it’s the driver dash one which is the hardest to get into and replace. That being said, these kick panel speakers can barely be heard.

The PAC route is easiest to use if you’re going aftermarket, but definitely not the best.

Been trying to adjust my 4 channel to get more mid range because the head unit uses the basic 3 band tuning adjustments (treble, mid, bass). Cannot get this thing to really even out the highs and lows, so they mask any mid range sound.

Long story short, I have come to some conclusions here: Gotta do it right the first time.

1: If you want full out crisp digital sound, go with either a DSP amp or JL Fix 86 for signal to the amp.

2: do the dash speakers right the first time. Tearing the dash apart is not fun, but going with okay speakers is a big no no. Do it right and go with a 3 way setup. 6.5 woofer in the kick panel, 3.5 in the upper dash, and mount the tweeter on top of the mid over the mesh.

3. Sting USA and I differ on one item, and that is the sound bar speakers. I believe you do get some decent sound out of them. If you convert this to 6.5’s go full component with the SSV works adapters, you can cut a hole in the adapters to mount a tweeter.

So I spent about $2,300 on my current setup. Now about to spend another $2,000 to correct the issues I am having by upgrading to a 3 way Focal front component speaker, JL DSP amp, and associated labor to make it better than ever.

Just don’t have frequency and channel separation that gives you the crisp, clean sound that I thought I would be getting.

Really cannot stress enough that if you aren’t putting a lot of thought into your install and aren’t 100% sure it’s the correct route, don’t move forward.

Again, you need a DSP setup for truly clean sound and signal. The AmpPro is not going to give you anything other than a more simple way to go aftermarket.

 

[winchreadyAZ]

Ok I just finished installing a set of C2-650 in Metra pods in my jlu. I used the wires behind the kick panel speakers for the inputs of the crossover ( installing a 47ohm resistor). I ran new wires from the crossover to the woofer and tweeter. I‘m not using the factory tweeter wires right now. My issue is the new speakers are very muffled and there are no highs out of the tweeters at all. Any suggestions?

Yep. Remove the resistors.

The JL C2-650 uses a passive crossover located at the speaker placement area (downstream of the amp).

The passive crossover is already matched to the speakers resistance and will show the radio's amp a standard 4-Ohm load. Think of it as the radio sees the crossover as a speaker with a proper resistance and then the crossover splits the highs and lows and sends them out to the components.

Resistors are required when you are trying to send the radios speaker signal to a signal processor in order to trick the radio into seeing a "speaker" resistance.

Thats my take. Good luck.

p.s. I have also heard of people getting a better result (from the soundbar at least) by combining the two sets of speaker wires and attaching them both to the crossover. FWIW.

 

[Sting_NC_USA]

Ok I just finished installing a set of C2-650 in Metra pods in my jlu. I used the wires behind the kick panel speakers for the inputs of the crossover ( installing a 47ohm resistor). I ran new wires from the crossover to the woofer and tweeter. I‘m not using the factory tweeter wires right now. My issue is the new speakers are very muffled and there are no highs out of the tweeters at all. Any suggestions?

As @winchreadyAZ mentioned, you might not need resistors, but that's only if the resistance of the speaker's cross-over matches the Ohm tolerances acceptable by uConnect. I've tested aftermarket resistance blocks by JL Audio and AudioControl, and they didn't work. That said, the resistors are not causing the sound issues.

The stock amp does not have enough power to properly manage C2's. When a higher end speaker is under-powered it can sound terrible. But, both the woofer and tweeter should still be playing, so I think you have a wiring issue. Before we go any further with trouble-shooting, are you running the base or premium system?

 

[It’ll do]

I have the premium system. I tried switching the jumper on the crossover and I could hear the speaker making noise when I switch to the new one ie -2,0,2. Am I wrong by thinking the knee speaker is processed by the Uconnect and doesn’t have highs on that wire? Or could my polarity be backwards I use the wiring diagram off from the Forums they said that the wire with the yellow stripe was the negative. the wires I got from the Metra pods didn’t have the same color wires?

 

[It’ll do]

 

[It’ll do]

I did try removing a resistor. no change to the tweeter. The front speakers did start turn off intermittently. So I put it back in.

 

[Sting_NC_USA]

I have the premium system. I tried switching the jumper on the crossover and I could hear the speaker making noise when I switch to the new one ie -2,0,2. Am I wrong by thinking the knee speaker is processed by the Uconnect and doesn’t have highs on that wire? Or could my polarity be backwards I use the wiring diagram off from the Forums they said that the wire with the yellow stripe was the negative. the wires I got from the Metra pods didn’t have the same color wires?

If you have the premium system, and you're running the kick panel wires into your crossover, you're likley not getting a full range signal going into the crossover. You may be better off connecting the stock wires directly to each speaker, skipping the crossover until you amplify your system.

 

[It’ll do]

I wasn’t sure if the signal in the dash would damage the new tweeter. I installed the factory speakers back in the dash for now. Like you said I’ll wait until I install an amp to install the tweeters. Thanks for the help. I’m sure I’ll have more questions as I go along.

 

[winchreadyAZ]

Yep. Remove the resistors.

The JL C2-650 uses a passive crossover located at the speaker placement area (downstream of the amp).

The passive crossover is already matched to the speakers resistance and will show the radio's amp a standard 4-Ohm load. Think of it as the radio sees the crossover as a speaker with a proper resistance and then the crossover splits the highs and lows and sends them out to the components.

Resistors are required when you are trying to send the radios speaker signal to a signal processor in order to trick the radio into seeing a "speaker" resistance.

Thats my take. Good luck.

p.s. I have also heard of people getting a better result (from the soundbar at least) by combining the two sets of speaker wires and attaching them both to the crossover. FWIW.

I should have caveated this post with I have the NON-PREMIUM system. Therefore, there is no external amp, which means the passive crossovers work just fine with factory HU.
FWIW, I'm running:
Infinity reference 3032CFX 3.5" in the top of the dash -- $69
JBL GTO 629 6.5" in the knee panels (with metra pod adapters) -- $109 + $59
Infinity reference 6530CX 6.5" components in the sound bar (with SSV adapter) -- $100 + $99
Rockville SS8P 8” powered subwoofers (one under each front seat) $89 ea

I chose these speakers specifically for two reasons - impedance and sensitivity.
1) These are 3 ohm speakers which will suck the most power out of my factory non-premium head unit with factory speaker wiring, and 2) they all have sensitivity greater than 91 dB for a 1 Watt input signal.
These help produce the most sound possible with the factory head unit (non-premium).

 

[zeebo56]

WINCHREADYAZ probably has the solution for a budget install to make everything sound much better which I would recommend for people not trying to add aftermarket amps and other things.

Just to add my 2 cents to this thread on my aftermarket install.

You can go 2 way and still have amazing sound, 3 way just makes it a little more easier to separate frequencies rather than trying to find the sweet spot for a 2 way setup to where the mid can still play low and go to a point that the tweeter can play low to as well.

Equipment
Pioneer GM-D8604 - 4 channel amp for my mids and tweeters ($70 on offerup)
Arc Audio XDI 1100.1 for subwoofer (also got it for cheap on offerup $60, was a steal but I had to sand and repaint it, looks new now) Expect sub amp to be around $200
Stevens audio MB6 mids ($88 each = $176)
SB Acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4 tweeters ($80 pair used from diymobile forum)
Stereo integrity 15" subwoofer ($270 shipped)
15" ported box made myself ($100 materials)
HELIX DSP MINI (perfect for 2 way plus sub setup, has high level inputs, auto eq, great DSP $400 shipped)
Metra pods to fit 6.5" up front (needed to make custom baffle to fit the mids in and also cut part of the pods out to fit the magnet $50)
Wiring for everything $100 probably (power wire, speaker wire, RCAs, resistors, etc)
About $1500 is what I spent

Suggestions/Advice
1. Buy the connectors to plug into the stock mid connectors or the stock tweeter connectors
2. Get the resistors to install prior to the LOC or DSP if it has high level inputs
3. Run power wire from battery to driver side into cabin through grommet you can see behind steering wheel against firewall. I just poked a hole and squeezed my power wire through it and put the grommet back.
4. Doors don't need to be removed but removing the driver seat helps to hide wiring if you install the 4 channel amp and dsp under the driver seat.
5. Couple good ground locations either near center console that you can see easy when you remove the driver seat or also another where the rear bottom plastic panel is by the rear seats if you have a 4 door.
6. Run the new wiring you will use for the aftermarket speakers through the dash to hide it easily and give some extra length as you run through dash down whatever side of the vehicle you want to go. I went down driver side to the 4 channel amp.
7. Label the speaker wires with electric tape or a label maker to know which ones are for what speaker if you use the same colored speaker wire for the aftermarket speakers.

*If you have a DSP that has high level inputs you only need to use the two mids for left and right which can easily be the signal for all speakers as they are full range signal or you can also use the tweeter signals with the mids. I think the tweeter signals are probably full range also.

My install
1. Tweeters in stock location (I had to make a wood cutout as a template the same size as the stock speaker and then mounted my tweeter to that and bolted to stock location.
2. Made a baffle for the metra pods and installed my 6.5" mids. Cut a hole out of the metra pods for the magnets and also to open up the pods as they are likely too small sealed for most mids.

CAUTION: Be careful when modifying the metra pods as there are side screws for mounting and you don't want to cut out that screw location. Also the driver side has three small screws/bolts on the back of it as well so do mess with those screw locations. I almost did as I modified my metra pods without taking out the stock pods first.

3. 0 gauge power wire from battery through driver side under the driver seat with a distribution block.
4. DSP has the tweeter wires going into it with the resistors before the DSP.
5. 4 channel amplifier has rcas from DSP to it, also has power wire and ground accessible under the driver seat since my distribution block is there and ground location is there.
6. I ran new wires from 4 channel amplifier to the stock locations
7. Subwoofer amplifier is mounted to my sub box.

Tweeters and mids alone sounded much better and could get loud to where I could hear the music clearly with my windows down going 80mph, something I couldn't do with the stock speakers. Of course bass was lacking.

8. My 15" ported box takes up most of the trunk space when the rear seat is up. Honestly the 15" ported is too loud for regular listening, it shakes the whole jeep, rattles a bunch since the hardtop already rattles by just tapping it. I am going to try to fire it downwards and then maybe use some bolts and chains to go around the roll bar for securing the box as well as trying to deter thieves a little even though they will likely take whatever they want to if they try. A 12" sealed or even 10" sealed/ported would fill in the bass and make the system sound great with a quality 2 or 3 way system.

I am planning on using a quick disconnect for the subwoofer amplifer so I can take it out whenever even though my box+amp+sub combo weighs over 100 lbs easy and is difficulty to haul in and out.

With rear seats down I still have room for my dogs to chill at the rear windows.

I don't care for the rear fill sound and mainly fade my sound to the front. I left the soundbar alone.

The Helix DSP MINI allowed me to auto EQ my system in about 20-30 min and it sounds great to me, especially for the budget I used which is only around $1500. The Helix DSP is very user friendly and one of the best I have used so far.

The installation takes a while, it definitely is tedious. Taking apart the dash to get to the mids and then installing the metra pods as well as running all the wiring took time. I had to remove most of the dash to do the install the way I wanted to. It took me 2 solid days to do it all.

I hope this helps someone and I am willing to answer any questions any one has as well.

 

[sknyfats]

For those struggling with the wiring polarity, the factory tweeters have a small capacitor wired to the positive terminal. Mark the side of the factory connector that connects to the capacitor and make sure that connects to the positive terminal of the new speakers.

You’ve got that backwards. When doing the 9v battery test on the 3.5 top dash speakers, positive is the non-capacitor side of the speaker.

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