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Dusty Dude

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The electronic systems are fairly well monitored and spit out proper error codes most of the time.
And therein lies the problem - garbage in, garbage out. A sensor, etc. goes wrong, it will show it. If a module quits on you, all bets are off. The most you will get is a generic communication error if you are lucky.
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roaniecowpony

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I think a lot of people here are over estimating the repair complexity of electronic systems.

What dooms JLs is the mundane hinge/doors/hood corrosion, the stupid, low tech dual battery system, the poor steering and death wobble even in stock configuration, leaks and wind noise everywhere.

The electronic systems are fairly well monitored and spit out proper error codes most of the time.
All reasons not to call it a "car".
 

Blueliner3

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<snip>
The answer is not less technology. The answer is technology done right, how Tesla uses redundant central processing with remote SW updates to avoid the dozens of control units in legacy vehicles. BMW Neue Klasse is trying to do the same. That is how you reduce complexity - with more computing power and more powerful software define functions.
Agree, software instead of hardware is definitely the future/present ā€˜under the hood’(?), but it annoys me when Tesla pushes an update that 1) feels like it’s still in beta test, or 2) moves/changes some function that I have to go re-find or relearn how it works (iOS updates, anyone?). I’m sure these are all covered in the TOS, which I am expected to read after every push. šŸ˜

I feel like Tesla also forgot some important safety & ergonomic lessons by placing all vital info (speed, navigation, etc.) in the centrally-located touchscreen, with nary a single indicator in front of the driver. I have to look (i.e. turn my head) down and to the right for this and every adjustment to comfort/convenience buried in menu verticals. No wonder they want to make these things fully self-driving… we’re staring screens, searching for the fart noise (I wish I was kidding), at speed. (Progress?)

Fortunately, the Y is the wife’s DD, and my Jeep has more things resembling 1970s aviation HUD and HOTAS tech. At the risk of being called a luddite, I still like having buttons recorded in muscle memory to push when I’m zooming along at 70 MPH.

[Back on thread: My guess is the OP is more concerned with vehicle longevity than an austere driving experience.]
 

roaniecowpony

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Agree, software instead of hardware is definitely the future/present ā€˜under the hood’(?), but it annoys me when Tesla pushes an update that 1) feels like it’s still in beta test, or 2) moves/changes some function that I have to go re-find or relearn how it works (iOS updates, anyone?). I’m sure these are all covered in the TOS, which I am expected to read after every push. šŸ˜

I feel like Tesla also forgot some important safety & ergonomic lessons by placing all vital info (speed, navigation, etc.) in the centrally-located touchscreen, with nary a single indicator in front of the driver. I have to look (i.e. turn my head) down and to the right for this and every adjustment to comfort/convenience buried in menu verticals. No wonder they want to make these things fully self-driving… we’re staring screens, searching for the fart noise (I wish I was kidding), at speed. (Progress?)

Fortunately, the Y is the wife’s DD, and my Jeep has more things resembling 1970s aviation HUD and HOTAS tech. At the risk of being called a luddite, I still like having buttons recorded in muscle memory to push when I’m zooming along at 70 MPH.

[Back on thread: My guess is the OP is more concerned with vehicle longevity than an austere driving experience.]
When I'd speak to the old graybeards at the FAA about the foreign aviation bureaus, one thing that they often pointed out was that the U.S. aviation system of regulations was built on experiences, good experiences, and a lot of bad. They also pointed out that many of these countries are learning the same hard lessons the U.S. learned decades ago.

I had a front row seat to see generations of engineers come in and learn the old lessons. Fortunately, engineers are the type to document everything, or most everything.
 

Dusty Dude

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At the risk of being called a luddite, I still like having buttons recorded in muscle memory to push when I’m zooming along at 70 MPH.
You are not alone. On a non automotive social media site, my wife came across a thread where a huge amount of people were saying the exact same thing. The consensus was they wanted a simple car that was all buttons and no computer screens anywhere. Hondas and Toyotas from the 90’s/2000’s were brought up as an example many times.

As far as Wranglers are concerned, I’m in full agreement. If they want to keep using computers to control things, fine. BUT, if it can’t be set or adjusted using a simple button/knob, then it shouldn’t be an option.
 

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Heimkehr

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If they want to keep using computers to control things, fine. BUT, if it can’t be set or adjusted using a simple button/knob, then it shouldn’t be an option.
My take on the subject is that as dashboard tablets continue to get larger, and with gear shift levers now occupying the center console, there's increasingly less real estate available for analog-style controls. Thus the ever-increasing migration of HVAC controls to those accursed screens. Consider, for example, how awkward it can occasionally be for the Rube owners to reach down and around the transfer case lever, and/or the transmission gear lever, in order to press the locking axle button, and/or any of the four auxiliary switches.

I would love to see a return of analog gauges, in the manner evident in the YJ. Let them have electronic guts and functioning, as the JL-gen. speedometer and tachometer already do. Just make everything as intuitive as possible, so that any glance away from the windscreen is as brief and as informative as possible. I'm convinced this can be done, but I'm equally convinced that there may not be the institutional will to slow the Wrangler's continued descent away from its legacy identity and toward what's it's arguably too close to at this very moment: a small Tahoe with solid axles.
 

Blueliner3

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You are not alone. On a non automotive social media site, my wife came across a thread where a huge amount of people were saying the exact same thing. The consensus was they wanted a simple car that was all buttons and no computer screens anywhere. Hondas and Toyotas from the 90’s/2000’s were brought up as an example many times.
So, they want this, but in car form… :)
Jeep Wrangler JL xxx IMG_3391


Early 2000s Japanese UX/UI design was excellent, IMO.

We also have a ā€˜23 Kia Soul and a ā€˜24 Hyundai Kona that have a lot of mechanical commonality šŸ‡°šŸ‡·. The Soul is right in the sweet spot of comfort and control buttons, lane-keeping & auto-braking features, but most of the infotainment is via Apple/Android connectivity. The Kona on the other hand is the latest refresh and they’ve gone hard on screens and menus. I expect the Soul to hold up better long term; fewer gremlins.
 

Blueliner3

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When I'd speak to the old graybeards at the FAA about the foreign aviation bureaus, one thing that they often pointed out was that the U.S. aviation system of regulations was built on experiences, good experiences, and a lot of bad. They also pointed out that many of these countries are learning the same hard lessons the U.S. learned decades ago.

I had a front row seat to see generations of engineers come in and learn the old lessons. Fortunately, engineers are the type to document everything, or most everything.
100%, the US’s enviable civil aviation safety record is founded on a lifetime’s worth of reading in NTSB investigations & findings on design, manufacturing, maintenance, and operations. Western Europe is not far behind, but some differences have cropped up over the years, e.g. Air Inter 148. For that reason, I prefer US flag carriers and US (or Airbus) equipment when possible.

The need for expertise in safety and manufacturing does not go away. I’m concerned the current focus on political red herrings and the attention spans of the TikTok generation will erode that record in years to come.
 

gato

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[Back on thread: My guess is the OP is more concerned with vehicle longevity than an austere driving experience.]
And the average age of vehicles on road is at an all time high, because vehicles are lasting longer and longer and longer. Vehicles from the 80s or whatever were total junk that didn't last. Modern vehicles have unimaginable levels of reliability and safety compared to the past.

People just misremember things and fantasize about the past.

Now, the one thing that has gone downhill is the quality of service at non premium brands. No one wants to work 8-10 hrs a day with their hands and make a career working as a Stellantis tech. The turnover is insane. Stellantis book rates and warranty practices make every tech have to rush through things and get you out of there, knowing that you will return. They can't even be bothered to rotate tires without putting an airgun on your lugnuts and overtorquing them to the moon.

What some people think are overly complex and difficult to diagnose Jeep problems, is really down to stellantis practices. Any good tech would not put up with Stellantis - they can make $200K/year at a BMW dealership as a master tech, and actually be given the time to do it right.
 

Ron Texas

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In the novel War Day an EMP disabled every vehicle with electronic controls. I suppose if that was your worry an engine with 1960's technology would be your goal. As time progressed retrofit kits with carburetors became available. Maybe my stucco house is a faraday cage and I don't have to worry.
 

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ecomguy

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OP, you’re saying that you basically want a c. 2005 TJ. So you might wish to keep an eye on Gilbert’s outside of Huntsville, Alabama. Grant Gilbert runs a longstanding family business of seeking out especially TJs and ā€œlong jeepsā€ (LJs) and then doing some gentle rehabbing. They keep a fairly steady flow of ~2005 Jeeps, and (from what I saw in person) they’re pretty choosy about avoiding rusty frames.

I’m not affiliated in any way. I just liked what I saw down in Alabama a few years ago. Good luck.
Makes me glad that I’ve already put more miles (and trail rash) on my year-old Jeep than the many of the 20 year-old models at Gilbert’s.
 

Heimkehr

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Makes me glad that I’ve already put more miles (and trail rash) on my year-old Jeep than the many of the 20 year-old models at Gilbert’s.
Mm. There's a lot of pride on Gilbert's website.
 

Dusty Dude

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Now, the one thing that has gone downhill is the quality of service at non premium brands. No one wants to work 8-10 hrs a day with their hands and make a career working as a Stellantis tech. The turnover is insane. Stellantis book rates and warranty practices make every tech have to rush through things and get you out of there, knowing that you will return. They can't even be bothered to rotate tires without putting an airgun on your lugnuts and overtorquing them to the moon.

What some people think are overly complex and difficult to diagnose Jeep problems, is really down to stellantis practices. Any good tech would not put up with Stellantis - they can make $200K/year at a BMW dealership as a master tech, and actually be given the time to do it right.
Every brand has those same practices, even the ā€œpremiumā€ brands. Don’t for a minute think that the quality of service hasn’t suffered for all brands either. Good techs are now far and few between, just like good tradesman. Society treats them as lower class because they aren’t ā€œeducatedā€ even though they make more money than those ā€œeducatedā€ clowns.
 

gato

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Every brand has those same practices, even the ā€œpremiumā€ brands. Don’t for a minute think that the quality of service hasn’t suffered for all brands either. Good techs are now far and few between, just like good tradesman. Society treats them as lower class because they aren’t ā€œeducatedā€ even though they make more money than those ā€œeducatedā€ clowns.
Yes, it is hard to get techs - and we only have ourselves to blame, with the college obsession.

But, it is *not* the same at every brand. At BMW I get a detailed video walkaround of my car by the tech doing the work showing everything they did and everything they checked. I have watched them work, and no air gun went to my lug nuts - they were properly torqued with a torque wrench. I don't have a drop of oil any where after an oil change. I pull up for my appointment and get promptly taken care off - there are so many people in that service department just taking the cars in, it is insane. I can book appointments easily for the next day.

My Chevy dealer was in between Jeep and BMW.

My Jeep dealer is completely overwhelmed - their wait lists for everything is insane. You can't get an appointment for weeks. My Jeep drips oil for days after any oil change.

I love my Jeep. I like my service dealer. I have 2 very good Jeep dealers within 15 min driving distance from me - but they are totally overwhelmed. And on top of that Jeep/Stellantis makes their lives miserable on warranty work.

Service is the #1 reason that gives me pause recommending Jeeps for friends and family - not quality. I think Wrangler quality is actually very good. I drive/wheel the heck out of my JL and it does not have a single rattle and is mechanically very sound. But everything breaks at some point, and Jeep service is a nightmare.
 

Heimkehr

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...it is *not* the same at every brand. At BMW I get a detailed video walkaround of my car by the tech doing the work showing everything they did and everything they checked. I have watched them work, and no air gun went to my lug nuts - they were properly torqued with a torque wrench. I don't have a drop of oil any where after an oil change. I pull up for my appointment and get promptly taken care off - there are so many people in that service department just taking the cars in, it is insane. I can book appointments easily for the next day.
Very similar to our Honda dealership, from whom we've purchased 3 vehicles. The Service Writer will usually greet me just as I put it in Park, so that he/she can record the odometer reading and take ~4 exterior photos to document the aesthetic condition of the bodywork at drop-off.

I'll also usually receive a text msg with a link to a video walkaround of the vehicle, sometimes while it's on the lift. The tech who's actually spinning the wrenches does so, providing a brief verbal description of things (usually during the annual safety inspection appt.), and/or confirming that any special parts replacement that I wanted has been done.

While I do usually have to make an appt. 1 week out, that's rarely an issue for us.

Anyway, the experience has been consistently good. In comparison, I can't fault my CDJR dealer very much, but they also occupy a very distinct 2nd Place here.

Service is the #1 reason that gives me pause recommending Jeeps for friends and family - not quality. I think Wrangler quality is actually very good. I drive/wheel the heck out of my JL and it does not have a single rattle and is mechanically very sound. But everything breaks at some point, and Jeep service is a nightmare.
This is how you correctly play the long game: Service, not Sales. From experience, it's possible to spend more time having to talk to Svc Dept staff, regarding a single visit, than it is with a salesman during the sum of the purchase process. That's instructive.
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