Right To Repair

[yokramer]

This is a major issue not just in the automotive world. The tech oligarchs are fighting it just as hard as well as the farm equipment industry.

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[alphawolff]

That first hour isn't the issue. That's a given the moment the key fob leaves my hand. But why fix it in 5 minutes when you could spend that first hour dicking around prepping, inspecting, diagnosing and maybe fix it in that second hour... or third??? My point is efficiency is great for the customer when we're paying by the hour, but not so much for the business.

Or, I could spend that 55 minutes fixing five other vehicles and collecting an hour each. I don't like ripping people off.

 

[yokramer]

That first hour isn't the issue. That's a given the moment the key fob leaves my hand. But why fix it in 5 minutes when you could spend that first hour dicking around prepping, inspecting, diagnosing and maybe fix it in that second hour... or third??? My point is efficiency is great for the customer when we're paying by the hour, but not so much for the business.

Because you arent really paying by the hour you are paying by the flat rate hour. Being able to do 24 billable hours in a 9 hour day is good for the business.

 

[Ratbert]

That's interesting, but makes sense. I was taught to rotate 5 tires (bias-ply days) in the "Z" pattern: spare to RF->RF to RR->RR to LF->LF->LR->LR to spare. I still use this method today. But a few years ago my tire guy (not Discount Tire) said I only needed to rotate "front to back" on the Raptor radials because I did not include the spare, which is a different wheel/tire combo. Who knew? Not me, and I still may be doing it wrong.

Both methods get my front tires on the rear axles and the rear tires on the front axles. That's key for me because the front tire lugs on both vehicles wear in a feathered pattern from steering. It takes many 100's of miles with my front tires on the rear axle to smooth out on the Raptor when I go too long between rotations.

There's different methods/patterns to rotate tires, and they all can be "right." The only "wrong" way is not to rotate them at all.

I was a bit shocked he said clockwise. Like you, I was expecting some form of Z pattern. I'm guessing they picked the simplest approach due to the inability of their staff to fully grasp anything more complex. Note that free rotations and replacements came with my tires, so I'd rather comply with their defaults rather than risk having the rotation pattern vary each visit.

Front to back, however, has some issues (ignoring the (hopefully blatantly) obvious one of (WTF???) not including the spare). Roads are crowned for drainage, which causes different loads on the left and right. Alignment anomalies can easily make one side wear faster. And, of course, drivers typically take turns differently in one direction than the other. I'd bet there are other front to back issues that I can't think of right now. Fortunately our tires aren't typically directional, so we have better options.

 

[LSJKU]

I was a bit shocked he said clockwise. Like you, I was expecting some form of Z pattern. I'm guessing they picked the simplest approach due to the inability of their staff to fully grasp anything more complex. Note that free rotations and replacements came with my tires, so I'd rather comply with their defaults rather than risk having the rotation pattern vary each visit.

Front to back, however, has some issues (ignoring the (hopefully blatantly) obvious one of (WTF???) not including the spare). Roads are crowned for drainage, which causes different loads on the left and right. Alignment anomalies can easily make one side wear faster. And, of course, drivers typically take turns differently in one direction than the other. I'd bet there are other front to back issues that I can't think of right now. Fortunately our tires aren't typically directional, so we have better options.

I agree wholeheartedly with your blatantly obvious WTF? of not including the spare. But in the case of my Raptor, I was a cheap-ass and didn't buy the 5th Icon wheel and matching tire bc it would not easily fit between the frame rails beneath the bed w/o modifications. But I do most my own rotations, and still cross up the back tires on a 4-tire rotation before mounting to the front.

I have bought most of my tires/wheels at the same dealership for the last 30+ years. They know me and rotate my tires for free anytime I want it (I know, any tire dealer does that). I've only used them less than a few times in that 30+ years. The guy I buy from surprised me a couple years ago when he said they only go front to back and vice versa on 4-tire rotations these days. Something about rotating bias-ply vs radials. Of course, he's a great bullshitter too, so who knows. At least I know what I get from them. I still "X" mine up, even on a 4-tire rotation.

I'll crawl back in my hole now. This horse is officially dead. Thanks for your input and clarifications. I'll be more thoughtful in my responses going forward.

 

[Sandevino]

I still remember years (decades) ago I had a 1980 Subaru GL and it needed some service that the owners manual actually stated a special tool was required and to take it to the dealership. I can see something like this at some point. Certain parts are constructed with what will almost be tamper resistant methods to "require" a trip to the dealership.

I have three full drawers in my tool cabinet dedicated to diesel specialty tools you can’t find anymore.

 

[Flybaby]

Ford and GM both met with the president and he basically brushed them off. Elsewhere Farley had commented that they have about 6000 dealer bays empty due to lack of mechanics and that was where dealers make most of their money. The vehicles are so complicated that most existing mechanics are having difficulties repairing anything. At the same time, they don’t want to pay mechanics for all the education they need to work on these computers on wheels.

I agree with Dusty Dude in that there is a great qualified mechanic shortage in the U.S. and one of the main factors for that is the educational system itself. The other is that the Manufacturerers want to pay rates to the Dealerships for warranty repairs that are sometimes only half of what it takes in hours to repair. Who eats the remaining hours, you gussed it, the mechanics. Not only that, but the mechanics have to pay for the their own tools and educational loans which in themselves is outlandish, but then they get caught in between the Manufacturer and the Dealership work-hour discrepancy and the mechanics take the hit.

Now they are pushing to eliminate the independent mechanic with all the push against the Right-To-Repair that will only lead to less then a diservable wage for the mechanics. Frankly, I do not trust many dealerships at all, not even with sales let alone repair.You have to be vigilante in everything you do with them. People need to speak up like the farmers against John Deer. This would lead to nothing short of a Communistic style take over of all automotive repair in America. This B.S. needs to be stopped in it's tracks. I urge all Jeep owners to write to your state represenatives before it's to late.

 

[RubiSc0tt]

It's not like the dealership service are any good, especially when you factor in the money they charge, the have all the fancy diagnostic equipment, yet they mostly get it wrong, my experience is with Ford, Pontiac, Jeep.

30+ years I've very rarely gone back to the dealership for service or repairs after purchasing.

This 4xe is obviously a different ball of worms.

You forgot the part where they have some sheisty, non-technical, pissant come out to tell you what is wrong with your Jeep, why they can't fix it, and either try to sell you a service plan, a new vehicle, or tell you all the parts need to be replaced with "genuine mopar" in order to fix it. I honestly don't know if I can sit through another one of those interactions and remain civil, knowing I know more than that kid.

most dealership employ morons OR they dont pay much of anything to real mechanics and hence employ morons.

I have a buddy in my Jeep club. 2nd generation Jeep owner, grew up wrenching with his dad (who I have wheeled with for years). Great dude, smart kid, works his ass off. Picked up a job after tech school at a Jeep dealership local to him. Worked there for 3 or so years (if I recall right), then bailed to go work for a State agency.

The reasons he gave for leaving? They stuck the young guys with all the bullshit work. All the old guys got the bigger jobs, and half of them were retiring within a few years so they weren't particularly interested or enthused nor did they want to train/ mentor. He wanted to learn and do more, regularly asked for the opportunities, and they (management) wouldn't give him anything other than oil changes and the occasional warranty replacement, until right before he left. He was also stuck on every evening shift and Saturday, and it was an absolute bear for him to get time off.
When the state agency made him the offer of M-F 7-3, with State pay, Benefits, retirement, and the option to work on everything from Lawnmowers to HD Trucks- he jumped at it.

I realize some of this is currently "industry standard" and "dealership service life" but these companies are going to have MAJOR problems if they don't up those standards for their employees. You can't treat people like that and expect them to stay at these jobs.

Just like you can't treat your customers like idiots and expect them to keep coming back. I wish I could find a good dealer around me, it would make my life so much easier for certain work.

 

[AlgUSF]

This is a major issue not just in the automotive world. The tech oligarchs are fighting it just as hard as well as the farm equipment industry.

Try to by HVAC parts other than commodity parts almost impossible. "Uh, we don't sell to homeowners, AC stuff is dangerous". I've been able to get commodity parts like A/C induction motors and capacitors, but specific part like ECM motors and such are near impossible.

When we bought our house 8 years ago the ECM blower motor went out and it was a communicating motor with the system board. It had to be the EXACT Carrier ECM motor or no-go. I called dozens of places within 100 miles, nothing "uh, we don't sell to homeowners you need a business license". I found a place in Indiana that drop shipped me the motor direct from Carrier. My friend went to Grainger to pick up a split AC capacitor (one with the herm and fan connections), and they told him he needed to see his business license. I order caps online from Grainger and they never asked me when i came by to pick up.

Cars are becoming like this, disappointing.

 

[Sandevino]

You forgot the part where they have some sheisty, non-technical, pissant come out to tell you what is wrong with your Jeep, why they can't fix it, and either try to sell you a service plan, a new vehicle, or tell you all the parts need to be replaced with "genuine mopar" in order to fix it. I honestly don't know if I can sit through another one of those interactions and remain civil, knowing I know more than that kid.



I have a buddy in my Jeep club. 2nd generation Jeep owner, grew up wrenching with his dad (who I have wheeled with for years). Great dude, smart kid, works his ass off. Picked up a job after tech school at a Jeep dealership local to him. Worked there for 3 or so years (if I recall right), then bailed to go work for a State agency.

The reasons he gave for leaving? They stuck the young guys with all the bullshit work. All the old guys got the bigger jobs, and half of them were retiring within a few years so they weren't particularly interested or enthused nor did they want to train/ mentor. He wanted to learn and do more, regularly asked for the opportunities, and they (management) wouldn't give him anything other than oil changes and the occasional warranty replacement, until right before he left. He was also stuck on every evening shift and Saturday, and it was an absolute bear for him to get time off.
When the state agency made him the offer of M-F 7-3, with State pay, Benefits, retirement, and the option to work on everything from Lawnmowers to HD Trucks- he jumped at it.

I realize some of this is currently "industry standard" and "dealership service life" but these companies are going to have MAJOR problems if they don't up those standards for their employees. You can't treat people like that and expect them to stay at these jobs.

Just like you can't treat your customers like idiots and expect them to keep coming back. I wish I could find a good dealer around me, it would make my life so much easier for certain work.

Yep…. 25 year HD diesel technician and retired from the industry 5 years ago. The FNG’s are treated like shit and the lucky ones learn from the old guys.

 

[azjl#3]

No, I did not want to get too specific with the technicians. Some owners do, some don't. I do rotate my spare into the mix.

If I included the spare in the rotation sequence, no way the technician would remember a multi-step mantra. He would probably end up putting every tire on the carrier at some point in the process. So I applied the KISS theory, leaving the spare decision to each owner.

I apologize to all tire technicians out there for the lack of specificity and clarity I displayed above.

Had to stand next to bay and keep showing kid rotating tires the picture how i wanted a 5 tire rotation, pretty funny.

 

[azjl#3]

You misspelled technicians. Dealers have technicians. Mechanic != technician. Techs can look at a computer and do what it says. A mechanic is someone who can figure out an issue without a computer. There might be one of those at a dealer, but he's likely too busy answering all the techs asinine questions and working on harder shit to work on your vehicle.

No, he is the guy actually rebuilding an axle with replacement gears.

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