Manual Transmission - Issues shifting into 1st & Reverse (Compilation thread)

[basemodel]

Not to drag you down, but there are people with the internal throwout bearings who report the same issues as everyone else. I hope yours works out OK. But that's why Toycrusher's theory is sounding so compelling...

I think his theory is correct, at least after looking at things first hand. I’m just hoping that it will at least hold up to heat from long drives combined with trail driving better than the factory set up.

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[GabeBoyTheGreat]

Nice. I'm definitely interested in the livernois tune and how well it controls rev hang

There is also a member on the forum who is a tuner. You can find his thread here: https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...26-jl-3-6-models-etorque-included-now.164496/

It would probably be more expensive overall, but the bonus is that he will review your datalogs to make sure everything is running correctly. He also periodically sends updates tune files with new features, and the tune can be customized to your liking, such as changing throttle response or cooling fan settings.

Without a doubt, his customer service is absolutely top of the line, which is very important to me.

 

[RubiSc0tt]

Circling back:
I spoke with my shop last week and they said they deal with both South Bend (mostly diesel trucks) and McLeod (Mostly Hotrods) and they're going to contact them, ask questions based on our conversations about the Jeep clutch, and see what they have to say. I'll be following up with them tomorrow or the next day.

That said: Does anyone here have extended experience with the updated South Bend or McLeod designs? Looking for community feedback here as well.

 

[RubiSc0tt]

Adding to the thread: Noticing the time it is most difficult to get the Jeep in gear is when I'm at a dead stop at a red light. Won't go in to 1/2 easily, so i have to put it into 3, then shift into 1/2. Sometimes blipping the throttle works, sometimes it doesn't.

If I understand it right, I think this might support Toycrusher's theory.

 

[Reflektr]

Adding to the thread: Noticing the time it is most difficult to get the Jeep in gear is when I'm at a dead stop at a red light. Won't go in to 1/2 easily, so i have to put it into 3, then shift into 1/2. Sometimes blipping the throttle works, sometimes it doesn't.

If I understand it right, I think this might support Toycrusher's theory.

Hey, I’ve got one for you - And this goes along with that same theory of the clutch getting stuck and not releasing - And I imagine you’re probably like me and have tried everything under the sun to get it to shift smoothly - But have you at any given time briefly tried driving it a little more aggressively, then noticed a difference in how it behaves afterwards?

I kind of bopped mine around a little bit the other day on the way home from work, then noticed the rest of the drive home it drove like a normal stick-shift. Of course the next morning it was back to its old inconsistent self again.

 

[RubiSc0tt]

Hey, I’ve got one for you - And this goes along with that same theory of the clutch getting stuck and not releasing - And I imagine you’re probably like me and have tried everything under the sun to get it to shift smoothly - But have you at any given time briefly tried driving it a little more aggressively, then noticed a difference in how it behaves afterwards?

I kind of bopped mine around a little bit the other day on the way home from work, then noticed the rest of the drive home it drove like a normal stick-shift. Of course the next morning it was back to its old inconsistent self again.

I'll have to give it a shot and see. I've noticed it more at lower speeds, and I've noticed it's harder going into gear in traffic unless I really shove it into 2/3.

 

[Toycrusher]

Adding to the thread: Noticing the time it is most difficult to get the Jeep in gear is when I'm at a dead stop at a red light. Won't go in to 1/2 easily, so i have to put it into 3, then shift into 1/2. Sometimes blipping the throttle works, sometimes it doesn't.

If I understand it right, I think this might support Toycrusher's theory.

Yes, that has always been my symptoms and seems to mirror most of the issues experienced by ones on this forum.

The way this was fixed in my current clutch, (entirely my speculation) is that CF went with a "less sticky" friction material. Conventional theory for a hi-performance clutch is as aggressive of a material as possible and as much pressure plate pressure as possible to hook up like an on/off switch, minimal slip for maximum acceleration and torque holding power.

Because of the low-drag free-spinning nature of the input shaft in this transmission (once again no data to back up my assumption), it is necessary to use a "not-so-sticky" friction material to "soften" the engagement and allow the disc and input shaft to release from the flywheel at a much lower drag level.

** OE Clutch Failure **

This could also explain the OE clutch failures. If someone sits at a light with their foot on the clutch, one of the discs may remain engaged forcing the other to slip continually, building excess heat in the intermediate pressure plate which over time fatigues the metal and results in the spectacular "Rapid Unscheduled Dissasembly" demonstrations

 

[basemodel]

After putting ~1000 miles on my McLeod so far, I’m mostly liking it. It feels far better than stock. My only complaint is that it is still difficult to get into first and reverse. It’s not every time, but I think it’s worst when I have been sitting in neutral for a minute. The clutch is definitely dragging, as sometimes if I start it in first gear my Jeep will roll forwards. I think that the theory that the input shaft spins too well (low drag due to design) might be correct because waiting a short time usually allows me to get into gear. I’m wondering if switching out the ATF for gear lube would help. I’m considering trying that in the near future, so I’ll keep everyone posted.

 

[Toycrusher]

After putting ~1000 miles on my McLeod so far, I’m mostly liking it. It feels far better than stock. My only complaint is that it is still difficult to get into first and reverse. It’s not every time, but I think it’s worst when I have been sitting in neutral for a minute. The clutch is definitely dragging, as sometimes if I start it in first gear my Jeep will roll forwards. I think that the theory that the input shaft spins too well (low drag due to design) might be correct because waiting a short time usually allows me to get into gear. I’m wondering if switching out the ATF for gear lube would help. I’m considering trying that in the near future, so I’ll keep everyone posted.

Keep us posted on it!

 

[Reflektr]

Yes, that has always been my symptoms and seems to mirror most of the issues experienced by ones on this forum.

The way this was fixed in my current clutch, (entirely my speculation) is that CF went with a "less sticky" friction material. Conventional theory for a hi-performance clutch is as aggressive of a material as possible and as much pressure plate pressure as possible to hook up like an on/off switch, minimal slip for maximum acceleration and torque holding power.

Because of the low-drag free-spinning nature of the input shaft in this transmission (once again no data to back up my assumption), it is necessary to use a "not-so-sticky" friction material to "soften" the engagement and allow the disc and input shaft to release from the flywheel at a much lower drag level.

** OE Clutch Failure **

This could also explain the OE clutch failures. If someone sits at a light with their foot on the clutch, one of the discs may remain engaged forcing the other to slip continually, building excess heat in the intermediate pressure plate which over time fatigues the metal and results in the spectacular "Rapid Unscheduled Dissasembly" demonstrations

Your theory makes more and more sense every time I drive it. Every once in awhile I’ll just be cruising along and get a whiff of what smells to me like burnt clutch. Sometimes take-offs and shifts feel grossly underpowered and spongy, and sometimes the thing really hooks up and goes. Shifter feel vastly improves when it hooks up and goes, and this is also when all drivetrain backlash disappears between shifts.

 

[roaniecowpony]

After putting ~1000 miles on my McLeod so far, I’m mostly liking it. It feels far better than stock. My only complaint is that it is still difficult to get into first and reverse. It’s not every time, but I think it’s worst when I have been sitting in neutral for a minute. The clutch is definitely dragging, as sometimes if I start it in first gear my Jeep will roll forwards. I think that the theory that the input shaft spins too well (low drag due to design) might be correct because waiting a short time usually allows me to get into gear. I’m wondering if switching out the ATF for gear lube would help. I’m considering trying that in the near future, so I’ll keep everyone posted.

Isn't the transmission a fully synchronized box (all fwd gears)?

 

[Toycrusher]

Isn't the transmission a fully synchronized box (all fwd gears)?

It's fully synchronized but they aren't designed to handle the stress of the input still being driven

 

[eastern]

Also, if the hydraulics were giving up and unable to hold the pressure plate open, then tricks like sliding the shifter into 3rd before reaching for 1st would have no benefit.

EXACTOMUNDO !


Your explanation of possible issue makes sense, but I do not think it covers the entire picture.

In my and others experience, the problem progressively and exponentially worsens over time. Once the gear lockouts start, for roughly a month of daily driving the shifting will continue to degrade. Eventually it becomes difficult enough that force is required to move the shifter out of certain gears. Then eventually it progresses into gear grinding, and later even 3rd and 4rd begin to lock out.

There is also another factor, when shifting already experiences the worst symptoms and vehicle is practically undrivable, there would be an odd day when it drives and shifts smooth as butter, make that make sense. Also when vehicle stops for a few minutes after a trouble-free drive and begins to experience some of the worst lock outs.

I am pulling my transmission out for the 4th time this Saturday and putting back original clutch. Just like the last 3 times, after i experience 1st signs of lock outs, it took about a month of daily driving and now having to use force on shifter to get out of the gears. In my case, it is 1st and Reverse that are difficult to get out of.

Seems like you are on the right track, but there are also other factors in play. My theory is the friction material from disc degrading lubricating quality of grease on the shaft also plays role.

 

[RubiSc0tt]

@eastern which clutch are you currently running again?

 

[eastern]

@eastern which clutch are you currently running again?

ACT,

Will also mention that this is 2nd kit i got from them, because someone earlier claims to have trouble free experience with "revised" version.

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