EV vs ICE

[Pape]

If you look at the big picture:
I do not see heavy machinery, container carrier or super tanker running out of batteries.
Running any of this current bulky and heavy batteries will not be practical.
I know, I know batteries are evolving and we should have suitable batteries for those application in 10 to 15 years. From the look of it this is probably the time required to just move to Hydrogen and keep the current model of gas station running.

I personally, enjoy driving not looking at batteries charging that is just me.

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[Wbino]

Were un manipulated market forces allowed to prevail EV’s would simply be an additional choice for consumer needs, wants, and preference. With No Emotion Created. Regrettably

add - and willing accomplices

creating

with them being shoved up our a$$

You think you havent been in a manipulated market since you were born? ?

 

[THAW]

...whack-doodle declarative of 80% of buyers pushing thier box of dead batteries back to their dealership...

Not "return their Tesla", return to ICE at their next vehicle purchase. I believe the figure was estimated by some to be ~20% a few years ago, and is believed to have dropped a few percentage points since. Perhaps @Dusty Dude mistakenly inverted the ratio?

 

[2nd 392]

You think you havent been in a manipulated market since you were born? ?

Yes— but rapidly more extensive, blatant, and even now admittedly so. Close paraphrasing
“ the new mpg and emissions standards for 26- 32 are designed to incentivize EV adoption” not in effect and automatic annual 2% for cars, 4% for SUV’s and light trucks raising the fleet average to over 50 mpg by 32 proposed. Or “were not going to ban it, we’ll make it so expensive no one will want to use it” per “44” regarding fossil fuel energy policy. Date specific outright state ICE sales bans, with ICE 4dr Wranglers already not inventoried in CARB states- up to 18 +DC for 24.

 

[Jeep to EVC]

In a few years, next decade for sure, this argument will be moot. How? Why?
One word:

Hydrogen

It'll be interesting watching them learn how to effectively tax it.

https://www.bmw.com/en/innovation/how-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-work.html

Oh dear dog (intentional), please stop with the Hydrogen hard on - it's not going to ever be practical on the personal vehicle scale.

It's a giant maybe at industrial scale, it cost a LOT to make, it's insanely hard to keep in liquid form. It's energy density is abysmal on the scale we're all talking about.

AND I GET IT, the appeal is obvious, Hydrogen is literally everywhere. It's not easy to make - 4 ways:
- Thermal - uses natural gas to convert
- Electrolytic - separating from H2O - expensive and painful but can be used as a fuel cell in this process (kinda')
- Solar - this is a VERY cool way to clean / separate it out but not fully understood or really practical outside fleet deployment (mostly).
- Biological - little bug: microbes such as bacteria and microalgae

It's so much easier to invision very large Hydrogen generation facilities that convert and 'burn' hydrogen to generate electricity - grid scale stuff. The monster plant in Spain makes around 20MW of juice a year in a completely renewable process using the 2nd and 3rd process listed above.

One last thought about hydrogen in practical terms - when you're run out of it in your rig, your vehicle is dead till you can tow it to a Hydrogen station. There is NO on trail solution.

 

[Jeep to EVC]

Yes— but rapidly more extensive, blatant, and even now admittedly so. Close paraphrasing
“ the new mpg and emissions standards for 26- 32 are designed to incentivize EV adoption” not in effect and automatic annual 2% for cars, 4% for SUV’s and light trucks raising the fleet average to over 50 mpg by 32 proposed. Or “were not going to ban it, we’ll make it so expensive no one will want to use it” per “44” regarding fossil fuel energy policy. Date specific outright state ICE sales bans, with 4dr Wranglers already not inventoried in CARB states- up to 18 +DC for 24.

AGAIN, for this topic - who cares????

You aren't buying a new one.

Nobody is making you change.

Keep your Jeep, please.

It's not your job, fight the fight you can win, not the fight that nobody cares about. EV, in whatever form, is here. It won't go away, I'm sorry.

Apples to Apples - EV vs ICE that's the thread.

NOT 'Fossil fuel generation vs battery charging origins'.

How go-go juice gets into your 'tank' is not the subject.

 

[Dusty Dude]

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT - just for one second, think about the absurdity of your last whack-doodle declarative of 80% of buyers pushing thier box of dead batteries back to their dealership - Tesla in 2022, produced 1,369,611 electric cars (up 47% year-over-year) *, if 1,095,689 of those were returned (80%), Tesla would already be out of business, done, dead, gone, your wet dream come to pass. AND that's 2022, spoiler alert, they made a BUNCH more in 2023 - shocker given how many they had returned...

But, just a quick check of the stock market, they're at 193.57 (down -22% YTD!!!), down a bunch but not dead. (NO, I own no Tesla stock or any other stock at all).

And look Dusty, I say again, powerful, strong and well reasoned AND constructive comments like you might have are valuable to the reader and ultimately Jeep mgt., but, when you say things, quote things that are soooo nutbaggery, it weakens your voice.

And has for my alleged 'whitewashing', I'll have you know, I ONLY use cold water so none of my colors run, no need to separate whites from colored in my all electric washing machine, proudly branded by American Maytag but fully built by them commie bastards in China or somewhere - GO AMERICA!

Anyway, silliness aside, if you go to my sited link below, you'll very quickly notice that this report while impressive, is by no means a glowing report card for Tesla. It points out how they've missed certain market benchmarks and might not see as much growth in 2024. I mention this ONLY so as to slow your knee-jerk reaction that I'm only pointing to shinny data to prove my point (which I don't have).

Footnotes:
* https://insideevs.com/news/703024/tesla-production-deliveries-graphed-through-2023q4/#:~:text=For reference, in 2022, Tesla,-term target of 50%.

No knee jerk reactions or wet dreams here. I have no dog in this race either. But it seems that I have struck a nerve. I have stated what is happening in the industry, and the realities of owning an EV in a cold climate. The people going back to ICE trade their EV’s in, and that has 0 effect on Tesla. Its called the used car market.

One of the reasons people are trading their EV’s in for an ICE is because of what you yourself just mentioned. Lack of charging infrastructure. Our government has not installed one new charging station in the last few years. Not one! Driving cross country in an EV is a disaster, whereas ICE’s have no problem at all.

Why did Tesla enact a large price cut? They are trying to keep their sold numbers up. That announcement made their stock drop. Every other major EV manufacturer has cut back their programs.

All you have to do is read or watch lots of “news” stories, and you will find that my wacky-doodle comment is not so whacked after all.

Oh dear dog (intentional), please stop with the Hydrogen hard on - it's not going to ever be practical on the personal vehicle scale.

One last thought about hydrogen in practical terms - when you're run out of it in your rig, your vehicle is dead till you can tow it to a Hydrogen station. There is NO on trail solution

Let’s substitute electric for Hydrogen in this last quote. Same argument…

 

[Jeep to EVC]

Le sigh.

 

[2nd 392]

AGAIN, for this topic - who cares????

You aren't buying a new one.

Nobody is making you change.

Keep your Jeep, please.

It's not your job, fight the fight you can win, not the fight that nobody cares about. EV, in whatever form, is here. It won't go away, I'm sorry.

Apples to Apples - EV vs ICE that's the thread.

NOT 'Fossil fuel generation vs battery charging origins'.

How go-go juice gets into your 'tank' is not the subject.

Correct- I intend to keep my present vehicles.
Correct- for now— until- “we’ll make it so expensive no one will want to use it”
Correct- even if relegated a week end enjoyment if DD becomes unaffordable requiring a DD alternative.
Correct- I don’t care what vehicle platform chosen for whatever reason- just want the same free opportunity for choice
Correct- Apples to Apples without mandate, production percentages, regulations, CAFE mpg and emissions standards, federal,state, utilities bribes, energy policies, date specific bans, no inventory policy, fuel tax levels- if a mileage tax is added, in addition too, not instead of likely, even preferred parking without chargers here in Ca. Designed to incentivize EV choice.
I didn’t mention power generation other than energy policies, but it does apply— Correct
BTW- I have off grid capable home solar and will consider replacing my GCSRT with an electrified vehicle in a few years when solid state batteries become production if the true market forces make it a good choice. But my V8 Wrangler is a keeper and destined family heirloom along with Dad’s 3A.

 

[ecidiego]

Only after BEVs hit the market did I start hearing about how "everyone" needs to drive cross country every day and they all, of course, have 400 mile daily commutes....


lol

 

[THAW]

Apples to Apples - EV vs ICE that's the thread.

NOT 'Fossil fuel generation vs battery charging origins'.

How go-go juice gets into your 'tank' is not the subject.

Now that's a "whack-doodle declarative" .

Did you happen to catch the video in the first post? The one by the member who titled the thread?

Why so adamant the topic shouldn't be discussed holistically?

 

[THAW]

Only after BEVs hit the market did I start hearing about how "everyone" needs to drive cross country every day and they all, of course, have 400 mile daily commutes....


lol

Only after BEVs hit the market did I start hearing about how people have a separate commuter and road trip car.

 

[Jeep to EVC]

Correct- I intend to keep my present vehicles.
Correct- for now— until- “we’ll make it so expensive no one will want to use it”
Correct- even if relegated a week end enjoyment if DD becomes unaffordable requiring a DD alternative.
Correct- I don’t care what vehicle platform chosen for whatever reason- just want the same free opportunity for choice
Correct- Apples to Apples without mandate, production percentages, regulations, CAFE mpg and emissions standards, federal,state, utilities bribes, energy policies, date specific bans, no inventory policy, fuel tax levels- if a mileage tax is added, in addition too, not instead of likely, even preferred parking without chargers here in Ca. Designed to incentivize EV choice.
I didn’t mention power generation other than energy policies, but it does apply— Correct
BTW- I have off grid capable home solar and will consider replacing my GCSRT with an electrified vehicle in a few years when solid state batteries become production if the true market forces make it a good choice. But my V8 Wrangler is a keeper and destined family heirloom along with Dad’s 3A.

Solid State batteries - RIGHT - now that's the solution we should all be rallying around!!!

 

[ecidiego]

Only after BEVs hit the market did I start hearing about how people have a separate commuter and road trip car.

25+ years for me.... why the fuk would I daily drive a Jeep?

 

[Obviousbicycleco]

“I’m just here for the thread.” - This electric utility worker

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