Ecodiesel Eco-nomics & Issues

[treillw]

I've been reading a ton about the Ecodiesel. Trying to decide between it and the V6. Based on what I see, operation costs between the V6 and Turbo 4 are pretty much the same. I feel that the V6 is the safer bet, because it's time tested and naturally aspirated (less to go wrong in my mind). Initially I thought the Diesel would be cheaper to drive, since it gets better gas mileage. Others have stated high costs for DEF and oil change. I wanted to see how the numbers add up, so I just broke down all the operation costs. Based on my math, the diesel costs about $0.013 more per mile to drive than a V6 or T4 (please check my estimates below and let me know if anything is glaringly wrong). If you are frugal and order mass quantities of oil, DEF, etc when it is on sale, I would think you might be able to get the diesel to cost the same as the gas engines, but never cheaper - unless fuel/gas costs reverse, which can go both ways. So my thoughts on the diesel are it builds more torque and will be more fun to drive, but don't expect it to save you money.
I have a couple of additional questions. What is the cheapest quality oil people are using for the diesel? Are there any cheaper alternative sources for oil filters?

Another noteworthy item is that I'm not seeing a tremendous cost increase for the diesel motor itself. I want an automatic either way and am leaning towards the V6 Etorque. Using the costs on jeep.com I'm seeing that the diesel only costs $1,760 more, however I don't believe this reflects the recent price increases. Using the forum's pricing spreadsheet, I'm seeing the diesel costs $2,760 more. Why are so many people/car review articles saying that the diesel is $4,000 more? Am I missing something??

Further thought process: It will cost a hair more to operate, or if I'm lucky the same. The initial cost for the initial power (motor cost) isn't that bad. So I could justify purchasing it. But then I'm reading about the overheating issues while going over mountains (I live in Montana...), the computer incorrectly calculating how much DEF you have and shutting the engine down in remote locations (I live in Montana), finding DEF in remote locations (did I say I live in Montana?), etc. Just seems like it could be a real pain and princess of a motor to take care of. The reason I want to buy this vehicle is to keep me from getting stranded in my current vehicle in the absolute middle of nowhere with no cell service and a 10 mile minimum walk to the nearest house (who hopefully won't shoot me when I'm knocking their door down at 2am).

The diesel sounds like it could be a ton of fun. But it might be much less of a headache to get the V6. Is Jeep planning on fixing any of these issues, as I'm sure are aware of them? If I'd buy a 2022 and they would fix it, would mine be upgraded based on warranty?

Any advice on which to choose?

Thanks!

		Diesel				Etorque V6/Turbo 4
	Diesel Fuel Cost	3.75	$/gal		Gas Cost	3.34	$/gal
	Combined Diesel Efficiency	25	mpg		Combined Gas Efficiency	21	mpg
	Cost Per Mile	$0.150			Cost Per Mile	$0.159
	DEF Cost	9.6	$/gal
	DEF Efficiency	900	mpg
	Cost Per Mile	$0.011
	Diesel Oil Cost	81	($9/qt)		Oil Cost	23
	Diesel Oil Filter Cost	63	($38 on sale)		Oil Filter Cost	12
	Oil Change Interval	10000			Oil Change Interval	10000
	Cost Per Mile	$0.014			Cost Per Mile	$0.004
	Total Cost Per Mile	$0.175			Total Cost Per Mile	$0.163
			$12.52	more to drive 1000 miles

Sponsored

 

[BDinTX]

We've got two JLURs, a 2.0T and the 3.0T. Between the two I like driving diesel better. My theory is the additional weight in the front helps the camber do it's job resulting in better vehicle handling.

I haven't experienced the overheating issue, but I also haven't driven overloaded over mountain passes yet. I also haven't seen the wonky DEF range messages, but I top off my DEF tank when it gets to 1/2. I'm not concerned with turbo longevity, since it is a pretty mature engine technology.

I believe the weak link is the abundance of electronics in new vehicles. That you're going to have whichever engine you choose. If you read around the forum enough, you'll hear horror stories with all three engines.

 

[Ruby Mike]

Not sure where you are getting your DEF, but down here in socal DEF is selling for $14.00 for 2 1/2 gallons. Then again I am also paying $4.65 gallon for diesel. Regular is $4.75 and up. My DEF use is not bad, using about one jug every 5k

 

[treillw]

Not sure where you are getting your DEF, but down here in socal DEF is selling for $14.00 for 2 1/2 gallons. Then again I am also paying $4.65 gallon for diesel. Regular is $4.75 and up. My DEF use is not bad, using about one jug every 5k

Using your numbers for DEF, I get that the diesel is $0.005 more per mile than a gas engine for me to operate at current gas prices.

FYI if your interested, if I enter your fuel costs & def costs, I get that it's $0.026 cheaper per mile for you to drive the diesel.

So I guess depending on your fuel costs around the country there could be a slight edge in operation costs either way. I wouldn't say the costs are different to the point where it should make much of a difference in which engine I choose.

 

[SolarWizard]

If you’re buying the diesel for economic reasons, don’t.
however if you’re going to 37s or bigger the mpg delta is clearly bigger on the diesel side (I get 21-22 mpg on 39s). I’ve yet to see a V6 JL or JT that gets more than 16 on 37s and most are in the 14s

get the diesel because it drives like a Jeep always should have. It’s reminiscent of the venerable 4L I-6 with way way more power and a beastly superior trans (better automatic vs the V6 is also a plus for the diesel). which was the best engine Jeep put in wrangler until the diesel arrived.

get the diesel because you like crawling over obstacles at idle, pulling trailers or other vehicles off road with ease. Because you like the sound of a diesel. because you like truck stops. Because you like telling people it’s a diesel and watching them make a weird face.

but dont buy the diesel to save money

 

[Capricorn]

As an Ecodiesel owner, its operational cost may be a little higher than the gasser but the phenomenal torque offers a wider smile per mile than the 3.6L.
I love the 3.6L engine too as it is incredibly reliable and has decent power when mated with the JL's automatic transmission, and its requires less care specially if you drive short distances and mostly on city streets.
But if your commute has a high proportion of highway/freeway miles, the Ecodiesel will shine as a daily driver plus off roading benefits due to its low end torque.

 

[Oilburner]

If you’re buying the diesel for economic reasons, don’t.

get the diesel because it drives like a Jeep always should have.




but dont buy the diesel to save money

This guy gets it.

 

[BroncoHound]

I've been reading a ton about the Ecodiesel. Trying to decide between it and the V6. Based on what I see, operation costs between the V6 and Turbo 4 are pretty much the same. I feel that the V6 is the safer bet, because it's time tested and naturally aspirated (less to go wrong in my mind). Initially I thought the Diesel would be cheaper to drive, since it gets better gas mileage. Others have stated high costs for DEF and oil change. I wanted to see how the numbers add up, so I just broke down all the operation costs. Based on my math, the diesel costs about $0.013 more per mile to drive than a V6 or T4 (please check my estimates below and let me know if anything is glaringly wrong). If you are frugal and order mass quantities of oil, DEF, etc when it is on sale, I would think you might be able to get the diesel to cost the same as the gas engines, but never cheaper - unless fuel/gas costs reverse, which can go both ways. So my thoughts on the diesel are it builds more torque and will be more fun to drive, but don't expect it to save you money.
I have a couple of additional questions. What is the cheapest quality oil people are using for the diesel? Are there any cheaper alternative sources for oil filters?

Another noteworthy item is that I'm not seeing a tremendous cost increase for the diesel motor itself. I want an automatic either way and am leaning towards the V6 Etorque. Using the costs on jeep.com I'm seeing that the diesel only costs $1,760 more, however I don't believe this reflects the recent price increases. Using the forum's pricing spreadsheet, I'm seeing the diesel costs $2,760 more. Why are so many people/car review articles saying that the diesel is $4,000 more? Am I missing something??

Further thought process: It will cost a hair more to operate, or if I'm lucky the same. The initial cost for the initial power (motor cost) isn't that bad. So I could justify purchasing it. But then I'm reading about the overheating issues while going over mountains (I live in Montana...), the computer incorrectly calculating how much DEF you have and shutting the engine down in remote locations (I live in Montana), finding DEF in remote locations (did I say I live in Montana?), etc. Just seems like it could be a real pain and princess of a motor to take care of. The reason I want to buy this vehicle is to keep me from getting stranded in my current vehicle in the absolute middle of nowhere with no cell service and a 10 mile minimum walk to the nearest house (who hopefully won't shoot me when I'm knocking their door down at 2am).

The diesel sounds like it could be a ton of fun. But it might be much less of a headache to get the V6. Is Jeep planning on fixing any of these issues, as I'm sure are aware of them? If I'd buy a 2022 and they would fix it, would mine be upgraded based on warranty?

Any advice on which to choose?

Thanks!

		Diesel				Etorque V6/Turbo 4
	Diesel Fuel Cost	3.75	$/gal		Gas Cost	3.34	$/gal
	Combined Diesel Efficiency	25	mpg		Combined Gas Efficiency	21	mpg
	Cost Per Mile	$0.150			Cost Per Mile	$0.159
	DEF Cost	9.6	$/gal
	DEF Efficiency	900	mpg
	Cost Per Mile	$0.011
	Diesel Oil Cost	81	($9/qt)		Oil Cost	23
	Diesel Oil Filter Cost	63	($38 on sale)		Oil Filter Cost	12
	Oil Change Interval	10000			Oil Change Interval	10000
	Cost Per Mile	$0.014			Cost Per Mile	$0.004
	Total Cost Per Mile	$0.175			Total Cost Per Mile	$0.163
			$12.52	more to drive 1000 miles

I swear I'm not stalking you through this forum; it just seems to be that you're posting about things that I've recently been working through myself; plus, it's nice to "talk" to a fellow Montanan. I presently have a 3.6L/manual transmission JLUR and have a 3.0L JLURD on order, so I've recently investigated a bunch of this.

- 3.6L vs 2.0L: Naturally aspirated engines struggle at elevation. Depending on where in the state you live and travel, the Pentastar will feel pretty gutless in the mountains. Now with the automatic behind it you'll have lots of gears to help compensate, but the 2.0L will feel much more powerful at elevation and the higher you go the more drastic the difference will be. Plus forced induction engine technology has been in passenger vehicles for 30+ years now, even up in Montana, so it isn't unproven and unreliable technology. I'd personally be more unsure of the 48V ETorque system bolted onto the 3.6L than I would be the complexity of a little turbo-4. Forced induction isn't wizardry; beyond some extra piping and a little hair dryer under the hood, it really isn't that much more complex a design. After having the Pentastar in both my JKR and my JLUR (and having supercharged the 3.6L in my JKR and feeling the difference before FI and after) in Montana, I personally would've opted for the 2.0L on my 2022 Jeep if I hadn't chosen the diesel option instead.

- DEF: DEF can't really be ordered in bulk for cost savings as an individual user because it has a relatively short shelf life (typically listed as 2 years, but that timeframe drops dramatically if exposed to direct sunlight or stored above 68degF). The urea separates from the water and crystallizes if left on the shelf for a while. So, life with a modern diesel consists of stopping by a Wal-Mart every couple of months (depending on how often you drive) to pick up a box of DEF. Or, filling up at a truck stop every 5-8 fillups to top off with their DEF pumps. Is it an extra hassle over a gas engine passenger vehicle? Yeah. Is it the catastrophic hazard that some make it out to be? No. Is it the insane extra cost that can make or break a family's finances if not taken into account? Nah.

- DEF gauge issues: This seems to be a fairly rare issue but IS an issue with some diesel Wranglers and one I suspect Jeep will have a software fix for eventually. When that fix comes available, it'll either be released as a TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) or a recall. If it's a recall, you'll be able to get the update free of charge no matter how long you've owned the Jeep or what warranty is remaining. If it is a TSB and you're under bumper-to-bumper warranty, you shouldn't have any issue with getting the work done for free at a Jeep dealership. If you're out of warranty, some dealerships might charge you an hours labor or whatever, but if that ever becomes the case, I can point you to several Jeep dealerships in Montana that will take care of a TSB free of charge.

- Oil/filters: The oil needs to have the specific MS-12991 euro-spec classification. This is the oil I plan to use:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TXFCC3Q/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_5?smid=A1KGK42RKCGLZP&th=1

Currently $43 for 6 quarts, so about $65 for the 9qts needed for an oil change. The oil filters are expensive, but I suspect prices will go down once some of the major aftermarket manufacturers like Wix start producing quality replacements. Still certainly a higher price than the 3.6L, but not as astronomical as the dealership tries to make it out to be by charging $200 for an oil change. When it comes to shopping for oil filters, keep an eye out on the usual online sources like eBay or Amazon. Just make sure they are the original Mopar filters with housing. These have a shelf life of basically infinity, so if you find a deal on them, load yourself up. I have half a dozen Fleetguard oil filters for my old Cummins pickup in my garage at any given time; when I see them on sale, I grab 3-4 so I always have surplus. Same for the oil really, though I generally don't keep more than 2x oil changes worth in the garage at a time.

- Diesel engine upgrade cost: Your math is correct; all else being equal on a base Rubicon Unlimited, the delta between the 3.6L ETorque/Automatic and the 3.0L Ecodiesel is $1760 (before the 17th price hike). This is because the 8-speed auto behind the Pentastar is a higher priced option than the automatic behind the Ecodiesel (don't ask me why; the automatic behind the Ecodiesel is the stronger of the two transmissions) and the ETorque option on the Pentastar also has an increased cost over the non-ETorque engine (which is only available with the manual transmission now) so that offsets the costs. When folks are referring to the $4000-6000 price increase of the diesel engine, they are generally either just looking at the base cost increase of the engine ($3510 as listed on the Jeep builder tool) or comparing it to a Pentastar/manual transmission combo (which makes it a $5000 total cost option based on pricing listed on Jeeps builder tool). Interestingly enough, the cost delta between the 2.0L turbo and the Ecodiesel is $3,010, which makes the 2.0L turbo the cheapest option available for a Jeep with an automatic transmission. One more point for the 2.0L, if you were interested in sticking to a gasser.

- Overheating in the mountains: This is also a documented issue that affects some diesel Wranglers and was probably my biggest concern before placing my order. However, these are the conclusions I personally came to:
-- Small percentage with issues - double edged sword here, because the fewer number of vehicles experience the issue, the less motivated Jeep is to producing a fix for it.
-- Heavily loaded/towing - nearly all of the documented issues seem to be on vehicles that were heavily upfitted (37" tires, racks, roof tents, camping gear, trailers). Granted, I intend to load my Jeep down fairly well for longer trips too, but I think it can be managed a bit better than some of the YouTubers that have documented their experience with the issue.
-- Gearing - this has been a discussion since the start of the Ecodiesel threads and the general consensus is that you don't really need to change gearing for bigger tires because of all the power available with the Ecodiesel and 8-speed. I don't agree. My experience with diesel pickups has always been that you can get away with alot more due to the extra power, but there is still always benefit to be had. I think if the majority of the rigs running bigger tires were geared to get them back close to stock final drive, we'd see much fewer of the temperature issues.
-- Manually shifting of the transmission - it seems to me that the transmission programming behind the Ecodiesel is set such that it holds shorter gears longer for fuel economy but this can be detrimental too. My plan, when approaching large grades on the freeway, is to manually drop the transmission down to direct (6th gear) BEFORE the start of the grade; this should keep the RPM high enough to prevent the heat soak while keeping the overall engine load a bit lower. Will this work? I'll know once I get my Jeep, throw on my 35's and roof rack, and head for the mountains.
-- Jeep support - I'm not convinced yet that Jeep won't produce some kind of software correction or fix for the overheating and derating issues, as they clearly are happening often enough (and to folks on YouTube which seems to get their attention) to warrant investigation. No guarantees there, but I'm holding out hope (possibly naively).
-- Aftermarket support - I believe it is @AZ-Chris that has contacted a shop that is looking at solutions through aftermarket oil cooling. From what I've been able to piece together from looking on the internet and briefly crawling around an Ecodiesel Wrangler i found locally last week, I think the aftermarket "fix" will likely involve a larger oil cooler, possibly a different turbo (eventually), and underhood ventilation via hood scoops, fender vent mods, fender liner modifications, etc. Turbo diesel engines make a BUNCH of underhood heat (exhaust gas temps in excess of 1000degF quite often when under load) and the Wrangler platform has a disadvantage with a very narrow engine bay and very inadequate heat dissipation. Being able to bleed off excess heat through oil circulation is part of the solution, but I think the biggest gains will eventually be had from either a different turbo or some way of creating better ventilation underhood.

- Cost delta: Everyone calculates things out a bit different, but I performed a fairly simplistic cost delta calculation based on my hand calculated fuel economy with my current JLUR (Pentastar/manual) and what I realistically expect to have with an Ecodiesel JLUR. Now, let me preface this by saying that all these calculations are inherently flawed; fuel prices change, fuel economy changes based on weather, fuel types change over the course of a year (winter fuel = less economy), oil price fluctuates, everything is too variable. Some parts of the state, diesel is cheaper than regular unleaded. Other parts its $1/gal more. And all of that could change this afternoon, or next week, or next month. So it is impossible to accurately predict cost of ownership between the two, but you can get ballpark. Basically my ballpark was that it would take 130,000-158,000 miles of driving the Ecodiesel to pay for the cost delta between purchasing the Ecodiesel versus keeping my Pentastar/6MT Jeep. Is it possible I'll keep the Ecodiesel that long? Sure, I tend to hold on to vehicles for a while (my 2020 JLUR notwithstanding), but certainly isn't a guarantee. For me, it was justified in the decision that, if I was going to break down and submit to driving an automatic transmission, I wanted the most fun platform I could afford with it (the 392 is outside of my budget and I don't trust the 4XE technology enough yet) and I am an old dieselhead who looooooves torque and engine rattle so the decision was ultimately fairly easy.

- What should you do? Based on what you've said about wanting your new Jeep to take you deep into the woods and get you home reliably and without cause for concern, I think maybe the 2.0L turbo4 powerplant is the right choice. Good fuel economy/range, more torque than the Pentastar, cheaper, reliable, low cognitive cost. I certainly wouldn't classify the diesel engine as a princess (though who knows, this particular one may well be; i don't know for certain yet) as diesel engines in general LOVE to be worked and are generally robust and powerful and rudimentary powerplants, but they do require a bit more of a cognitive load to operate. You have to THINK about your engine/powerplant while you're driving it more than you do for most gas engines. Even in the older, simpler days, diesel engines could very easily melt themselves into a lump of iron if you just put your foot on the throttle on didn't pay attention; they make tons of power, and power is heat. This has always been the "cost" of operating a diesel engine, particularly once diesels started getting turbocharged in the 80's and 90's. Now, for someone who is into the mechanical side of things, this is a fun and enjoyable part of the driving experience, but it isn't for everyone. Plenty of folks derive fun in other ways from their vehicles and they'd prefer to "set it and forget it" in a manner of speaking. For those that prefer the latter, I think the 2.0L is the better powerplant choice.

 

[treillw]

One other thing I forgot to mention.... I saw some people talking about trip lengths and burn off cycles, or something along those lines.

Is there an issue with taking short trips in the diesel? The majority of our daily traveling is 20 minute trips - they involve about 5 minutes going 70 on the highway, 7 minutes of going 30 on back roads, and 8 minutes of stop and go traffic though town.

Other trips will involve driving 1 to 1.5 hours to the nearest city at 80mph on the highway - these probably happen once a month.

Is this any cause for concern?

 

[TX_Ovrlnd]

One other thing I forgot to mention.... I saw some people talking about trip lengths and burn off cycles, or something along those lines.

Is there an issue with taking short trips in the diesel? The majority of our daily traveling is 20 minute trips - they involve about 5 minutes going 70 on the highway, 7 minutes of going 30 on back roads, and 8 minutes of stop and go traffic though town.

Other trips will involve driving 1 to 1.5 hours to the nearest city at 80mph on the highway - these probably happen once a month.

Is this any cause for concern?

There is not, that is part of the forum fear they like to bring up to keep people from buying the diesel. Your trips will see the needed time for DPF burn. It should give you a message to keep driving if your commute is ever too short during one of the burn times, but it will keep trying each drive time until it completes when it needs to.

 

[treillw]

I swear I'm not stalking you through this forum; it just seems to be that you're posting about things that I've recently been working through myself; plus, it's nice to "talk" to a fellow Montanan. I presently have a 3.6L/manual transmission JLUR and have a 3.0L JLURD on order, so I've recently investigated a bunch of this.

- 3.6L vs 2.0L: Naturally aspirated engines struggle at elevation. Depending on where in the state you live and travel, the Pentastar will feel pretty gutless in the mountains. Now with the automatic behind it you'll have lots of gears to help compensate, but the 2.0L will feel much more powerful at elevation and the higher you go the more drastic the difference will be. Plus forced induction engine technology has been in passenger vehicles for 30+ years now, even up in Montana, so it isn't unproven and unreliable technology. I'd personally be more unsure of the 48V ETorque system bolted onto the 3.6L than I would be the complexity of a little turbo-4. Forced induction isn't wizardry; beyond some extra piping and a little hair dryer under the hood, it really isn't that much more complex a design. After having the Pentastar in both my JKR and my JLUR (and having supercharged the 3.6L in my JKR and feeling the difference before FI and after) in Montana, I personally would've opted for the 2.0L on my 2022 Jeep if I hadn't chosen the diesel option instead.

- DEF: DEF can't really be ordered in bulk for cost savings as an individual user because it has a relatively short shelf life (typically listed as 2 years, but that timeframe drops dramatically if exposed to direct sunlight or stored above 68degF). The urea separates from the water and crystallizes if left on the shelf for a while. So, life with a modern diesel consists of stopping by a Wal-Mart every couple of months (depending on how often you drive) to pick up a box of DEF. Or, filling up at a truck stop every 5-8 fillups to top off with their DEF pumps. Is it an extra hassle over a gas engine passenger vehicle? Yeah. Is it the catastrophic hazard that some make it out to be? No. Is it the insane extra cost that can make or break a family's finances if not taken into account? Nah.

- DEF gauge issues: This seems to be a fairly rare issue but IS an issue with some diesel Wranglers and one I suspect Jeep will have a software fix for eventually. When that fix comes available, it'll either be released as a TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) or a recall. If it's a recall, you'll be able to get the update free of charge no matter how long you've owned the Jeep or what warranty is remaining. If it is a TSB and you're under bumper-to-bumper warranty, you shouldn't have any issue with getting the work done for free at a Jeep dealership. If you're out of warranty, some dealerships might charge you an hours labor or whatever, but if that ever becomes the case, I can point you to several Jeep dealerships in Montana that will take care of a TSB free of charge.

- Oil/filters: The oil needs to have the specific MS-12991 euro-spec classification. This is the oil I plan to use:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TXFCC3Q/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_5?smid=A1KGK42RKCGLZP&th=1

Currently $43 for 6 quarts, so about $65 for the 9qts needed for an oil change. The oil filters are expensive, but I suspect prices will go down once some of the major aftermarket manufacturers like Wix start producing quality replacements. Still certainly a higher price than the 3.6L, but not as astronomical as the dealership tries to make it out to be by charging $200 for an oil change. When it comes to shopping for oil filters, keep an eye out on the usual online sources like eBay or Amazon. Just make sure they are the original Mopar filters with housing. These have a shelf life of basically infinity, so if you find a deal on them, load yourself up. I have half a dozen Fleetguard oil filters for my old Cummins pickup in my garage at any given time; when I see them on sale, I grab 3-4 so I always have surplus. Same for the oil really, though I generally don't keep more than 2x oil changes worth in the garage at a time.

- Diesel engine upgrade cost: Your math is correct; all else being equal on a base Rubicon Unlimited, the delta between the 3.6L ETorque/Automatic and the 3.0L Ecodiesel is $1760 (before the 17th price hike). This is because the 8-speed auto behind the Pentastar is a higher priced option than the automatic behind the Ecodiesel (don't ask me why; the automatic behind the Ecodiesel is the stronger of the two transmissions) and the ETorque option on the Pentastar also has an increased cost over the non-ETorque engine (which is only available with the manual transmission now) so that offsets the costs. When folks are referring to the $4000-6000 price increase of the diesel engine, they are generally either just looking at the base cost increase of the engine ($3510 as listed on the Jeep builder tool) or comparing it to a Pentastar/manual transmission combo (which makes it a $5000 total cost option based on pricing listed on Jeeps builder tool). Interestingly enough, the cost delta between the 2.0L turbo and the Ecodiesel is $3,010, which makes the 2.0L turbo the cheapest option available for a Jeep with an automatic transmission. One more point for the 2.0L, if you were interested in sticking to a gasser.

- Overheating in the mountains: This is also a documented issue that affects some diesel Wranglers and was probably my biggest concern before placing my order. However, these are the conclusions I personally came to:
-- Small percentage with issues - double edged sword here, because the fewer number of vehicles experience the issue, the less motivated Jeep is to producing a fix for it.
-- Heavily loaded/towing - nearly all of the documented issues seem to be on vehicles that were heavily upfitted (37" tires, racks, roof tents, camping gear, trailers). Granted, I intend to load my Jeep down fairly well for longer trips too, but I think it can be managed a bit better than some of the YouTubers that have documented their experience with the issue.
-- Gearing - this has been a discussion since the start of the Ecodiesel threads and the general consensus is that you don't really need to change gearing for bigger tires because of all the power available with the Ecodiesel and 8-speed. I don't agree. My experience with diesel pickups has always been that you can get away with alot more due to the extra power, but there is still always benefit to be had. I think if the majority of the rigs running bigger tires were geared to get them back close to stock final drive, we'd see much fewer of the temperature issues.
-- Manually shifting of the transmission - it seems to me that the transmission programming behind the Ecodiesel is set such that it holds shorter gears longer for fuel economy but this can be detrimental too. My plan, when approaching large grades on the freeway, is to manually drop the transmission down to direct (6th gear) BEFORE the start of the grade; this should keep the RPM high enough to prevent the heat soak while keeping the overall engine load a bit lower. Will this work? I'll know once I get my Jeep, throw on my 35's and roof rack, and head for the mountains.
-- Jeep support - I'm not convinced yet that Jeep won't produce some kind of software correction or fix for the overheating and derating issues, as they clearly are happening often enough (and to folks on YouTube which seems to get their attention) to warrant investigation. No guarantees there, but I'm holding out hope (possibly naively).
-- Aftermarket support - I believe it is @AZ-Chris that has contacted a shop that is looking at solutions through aftermarket oil cooling. From what I've been able to piece together from looking on the internet and briefly crawling around an Ecodiesel Wrangler i found locally last week, I think the aftermarket "fix" will likely involve a larger oil cooler, possibly a different turbo (eventually), and underhood ventilation via hood scoops, fender vent mods, fender liner modifications, etc. Turbo diesel engines make a BUNCH of underhood heat (exhaust gas temps in excess of 1000degF quite often when under load) and the Wrangler platform has a disadvantage with a very narrow engine bay and very inadequate heat dissipation. Being able to bleed off excess heat through oil circulation is part of the solution, but I think the biggest gains will eventually be had from either a different turbo or some way of creating better ventilation underhood.

- Cost delta: Everyone calculates things out a bit different, but I performed a fairly simplistic cost delta calculation based on my hand calculated fuel economy with my current JLUR (Pentastar/manual) and what I realistically expect to have with an Ecodiesel JLUR. Now, let me preface this by saying that all these calculations are inherently flawed; fuel prices change, fuel economy changes based on weather, fuel types change over the course of a year (winter fuel = less economy), oil price fluctuates, everything is too variable. Some parts of the state, diesel is cheaper than regular unleaded. Other parts its $1/gal more. And all of that could change this afternoon, or next week, or next month. So it is impossible to accurately predict cost of ownership between the two, but you can get ballpark. Basically my ballpark was that it would take 130,000-158,000 miles of driving the Ecodiesel to pay for the cost delta between purchasing the Ecodiesel versus keeping my Pentastar/6MT Jeep. Is it possible I'll keep the Ecodiesel that long? Sure, I tend to hold on to vehicles for a while (my 2020 JLUR notwithstanding), but certainly isn't a guarantee. For me, it was justified in the decision that, if I was going to break down and submit to driving an automatic transmission, I wanted the most fun platform I could afford with it (the 392 is outside of my budget and I don't trust the 4XE technology enough yet) and I am an old dieselhead who looooooves torque and engine rattle so the decision was ultimately fairly easy.

- What should you do? Based on what you've said about wanting your new Jeep to take you deep into the woods and get you home reliably and without cause for concern, I think maybe the 2.0L turbo4 powerplant is the right choice. Good fuel economy/range, more torque than the Pentastar, cheaper, reliable, low cognitive cost. I certainly wouldn't classify the diesel engine as a princess (though who knows, this particular one may well be; i don't know for certain yet) as diesel engines in general LOVE to be worked and are generally robust and powerful and rudimentary powerplants, but they do require a bit more of a cognitive load to operate. You have to THINK about your engine/powerplant while you're driving it more than you do for most gas engines. Even in the older, simpler days, diesel engines could very easily melt themselves into a lump of iron if you just put your foot on the throttle on didn't pay attention; they make tons of power, and power is heat. This has always been the "cost" of operating a diesel engine, particularly once diesels started getting turbocharged in the 80's and 90's. Now, for someone who is into the mechanical side of things, this is a fun and enjoyable part of the driving experience, but it isn't for everyone. Plenty of folks derive fun in other ways from their vehicles and they'd prefer to "set it and forget it" in a manner of speaking. For those that prefer the latter, I think the 2.0L is the better powerplant choice.

Thank you very much for putting so much time into writing that. I appreciate it and the stalking haha.

I thought the exact same thing about 37s with the stock gears, just because it can turn them doesn't mean it's ideal. You can let a manual diesel idle in high gear at 5mph and it won't stall, but the gears have to be screaming and ready to blow.

I think I'm leaning towards the diesel. I want to put 35 or 37" tires on it and I just feel like the other motors could be dogs while trying to go over the divide.

One other concern which I didn't mention previously is cold weather startup. How do these things fire up at 20 below zero? Last thing I want to do is spend a few days in the backcountry and come back out to not have my vehicle start because it's too cold.

I haven't checked around town for DEF at the gas stations. How likely are you to find them in town?

I'll be making a post on my lift research shortly. Maybe we've crossed paths here as well - stay tuned haha.

Thanks!

 

[Wrangler man]

I've been reading a ton about the Ecodiesel. Trying to decide between it and the V6. Based on what I see, operation costs between the V6 and Turbo 4 are pretty much the same. I feel that the V6 is the safer bet, because it's time tested and naturally aspirated (less to go wrong in my mind). Initially I thought the Diesel would be cheaper to drive, since it gets better gas mileage. Others have stated high costs for DEF and oil change. I wanted to see how the numbers add up, so I just broke down all the operation costs. Based on my math, the diesel costs about $0.013 more per mile to drive than a V6 or T4 (please check my estimates below and let me know if anything is glaringly wrong). If you are frugal and order mass quantities of oil, DEF, etc when it is on sale, I would think you might be able to get the diesel to cost the same as the gas engines, but never cheaper - unless fuel/gas costs reverse, which can go both ways. So my thoughts on the diesel are it builds more torque and will be more fun to drive, but don't expect it to save you money.
I have a couple of additional questions. What is the cheapest quality oil people are using for the diesel? Are there any cheaper alternative sources for oil filters?

Another noteworthy item is that I'm not seeing a tremendous cost increase for the diesel motor itself. I want an automatic either way and am leaning towards the V6 Etorque. Using the costs on jeep.com I'm seeing that the diesel only costs $1,760 more, however I don't believe this reflects the recent price increases. Using the forum's pricing spreadsheet, I'm seeing the diesel costs $2,760 more. Why are so many people/car review articles saying that the diesel is $4,000 more? Am I missing something??

Further thought process: It will cost a hair more to operate, or if I'm lucky the same. The initial cost for the initial power (motor cost) isn't that bad. So I could justify purchasing it. But then I'm reading about the overheating issues while going over mountains (I live in Montana...), the computer incorrectly calculating how much DEF you have and shutting the engine down in remote locations (I live in Montana), finding DEF in remote locations (did I say I live in Montana?), etc. Just seems like it could be a real pain and princess of a motor to take care of. The reason I want to buy this vehicle is to keep me from getting stranded in my current vehicle in the absolute middle of nowhere with no cell service and a 10 mile minimum walk to the nearest house (who hopefully won't shoot me when I'm knocking their door down at 2am).

The diesel sounds like it could be a ton of fun. But it might be much less of a headache to get the V6. Is Jeep planning on fixing any of these issues, as I'm sure are aware of them? If I'd buy a 2022 and they would fix it, would mine be upgraded based on warranty?

Any advice on which to choose?

Thanks!

		Diesel				Etorque V6/Turbo 4
	Diesel Fuel Cost	3.75	$/gal		Gas Cost	3.34	$/gal
	Combined Diesel Efficiency	25	mpg		Combined Gas Efficiency	21	mpg
	Cost Per Mile	$0.150			Cost Per Mile	$0.159
	DEF Cost	9.6	$/gal
	DEF Efficiency	900	mpg
	Cost Per Mile	$0.011
	Diesel Oil Cost	81	($9/qt)		Oil Cost	23
	Diesel Oil Filter Cost	63	($38 on sale)		Oil Filter Cost	12
	Oil Change Interval	10000			Oil Change Interval	10000
	Cost Per Mile	$0.014			Cost Per Mile	$0.004
	Total Cost Per Mile	$0.175			Total Cost Per Mile	$0.163
			$12.52	more to drive 1000 miles

If price isn't a factor I would definitely do the 392 Rubicon with the extreme Recon package. The Recon package gives you just about everything you need without doing any further mods. Dollar-for-dollar without getting the Recon package and wanting to build like most off-road enthusiasts especially living in Montana you're going to be about the same price in the end. The Recon package is not available in the diesel platform. Having your owned several Wranglers I wanted the best driving experience on and off road. The absolute best bang for the buck, and absolutely the best wangler experience is the Wrangler EcoDiesel. I chose the budget version but also makes it the best bang for the buck. JLUAD. With the EcoDiesel you automatically get the Dana 44s front and back. That's why I bought the sport it's almost like a freebie I have the same gear ratio as the Rubicon EcoDiesel just missing the electronic sway bar and electric lockers which are both problem prone. The EcoDiesel also comes with the beefier 8-speed automatic transmission. This is because of the huge torque that's produced by the EcoDiesel the same transmission is also put in the 392 and the 4XE. If you go with a 3.6 version which I agree is a fantastic engine just missing the torque and Power and as a result of increasing tire size you're going to have to re gear now you're spending more money then if you would have bought the EcoDiesel out of the gate I'm running 37's no regear no problem and still getting over 20 miles a gallon even a 3.6 re geared cannot touch that. I haven't even touched on the power that still being sent to the rear tires through the torque that the EcoDiesel pumps out. Fully loaded and yes exceeding the max payload
which we all do. The torque and power EcoDiesel is phenomenal climbing hills, passing slower vehicles everything you need is there in the EcoDiesel. No more high engine revs as you find in the 3.6 and the 2.0. The EcoDiesel just holds climbs and goes effortlessly. Those who have driven them know what it's like and there's no comparison unless you went to the 392. If you run a good fuel treatment additive your def consumption will be far less and hardly noticeable. Your total available range (miles) even with a slightly 3 gal less fuel tank still surpasses the gasser. I have not had any overheating concerns to date and currently have 26000 miles. I have had zero issues other than this steering issue which was a early JL problem and was remedied at the dealership under warranty with a complete new steering box. A very reputable company Banks makes a great plug-in play without reprogramming anyting. This allows me to set personal preferences and parameters that I could watch on a gauge as well as 50 more horsepower and a solid throttle response. This is unlike the Tazer JL which you must unmarry and remarry when going to and from dealer visits. And the Tazer does not give you horsepower increase. I strongly recommend you just test drive a diesel JL and then the Gasser JL. Then imagine your cargo and your payload added to that with 35s or 37's and tell me which one would you choose then. Then throw the Banks system on and try not to smile and laugh out loud when you mash the pedal.. keep us posted which you decide and if you're happy with that purchase once you've traveled across the Montana highways and Backroads.

 

[BroncoHound]

Thank you very much for putting so much time into writing that. I appreciate it and the stalking haha.

I thought the exact same thing about 37s with the stock gears, just because it can turn them doesn't mean it's ideal. You can let a manual diesel idle in high gear at 5mph and it won't stall, but the gears have to be screaming and ready to blow.

I think I'm leaning towards the diesel. I want to put 35 or 37" tires on it and I just feel like the other motors could be dogs while trying to go over the divide.

One other concern which I didn't mention previously is cold weather startup. How do these things fire up at 20 below zero? Last thing I want to do is spend a few days in the backcountry and come back out to not have my vehicle start because it's too cold.

I haven't checked around town for DEF at the gas stations. How likely are you to find them in town?

I'll be making a post on my lift research shortly. Maybe we've crossed paths here as well - stay tuned haha.

Thanks!

Anecdotally, my old 2008 Ram 2500 with a Cummins diesel and G56 manual transmission had 3.42 gears from the factory. I eventually had 37" tires on that pickup and, while bobtail, she barely noticed the difference from the stock tires to 37's. However pulling a trailer, even a fairly light load (~10000lbs), the EGT's would get HOT when pulling a grade. I swapped the gearing to 4.10's and it made a night and day difference when pulling. Same speeds, same trailer, same mountains, sometimes nearly twice the trailer weight and the EGT's would be 300-400degF difference.

My old 2nd gen Cummins pickup still has the factory 3.55 gears with an NV4500 transmission and 35" tires. It sure is nice to purr on down the freeway at 75mph and 2000rpm in an 8000lbs pickup getting 22mph, but before I put the truck bed camper I'm looking to buy next year in the back, I'll be swapping out for 4.10 gears. Gearing matters, even in diesels.

I wouldn't say the gasser variants would necessarily be dogs pulling the grades, especially with the 8-speed auto transmissions, but the Ecodiesel will absolutely feel orders of magnitude better pulling those passes.

A modern diesel won't have any more of an issue cold starting in -20degF weather than a modern gasser would. Your batteries giving up will be more of an issue than the engine failing to kick over. That said, I've always been a fan of block heaters with diesel engines and will install one on my Ecodiesel once it arrives. Won't help you out in the backcountry (unless you have a big assed portable power source to hook it to), and is realistically more about cutting down the warmup time in cold weather than helping a cold start, but it makes me feel better to use it when its practical.

Where in the state do you live? I'm from the Bitterroot originally, though have lived in Helena for a bit and spent a year in Bozeman a while back. Most of the bigger Town Pump's in town seem to have boxes of DEF but the only places you're likely to find DEF at the pump will be the bigger truck stops along I-90 near Billings, Bozeman, Butte, or Missoula. You can find boxes of DEF at any Wal-mart, OReilly, Car Quest, AutoZone, etc too. Hell, I think even Super 1 has them.

 

[BDinTX]

Around here you can get the blue def box at pretty much any station that sells diesel. Walmart and Home Depot carry them too. As somebody mentioned, it does have a shelf life so pay attention to how it’s stored. Inside or outside, and if there is a layer of dust on the boxes.

You’ll probably get a lot of opinions on lift kits. I hear good things about Rock Crawler, but personally put the AEV kit on. To it, I added front and rear adjustable track bars to center the axles. An important item to maintain good handling is either extended or adjustable lower control arms or geometry correction brackets to reuse your existing LCAs.

 

[Deleted member 59498]

I feel that the V6 is the safer bet

Ok then why the wall of text?

No one else can decide really.

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