Speaker replacement upgrade

[jeeplaw]

Yea, once we capture the signal before the amp we effectively remove all signal processing. For years I did that in my CTS-V and my Scatpack but then I had to feed it to a DSP (Rockford Fosgate 360 was what I used) and an amp . Now, the market has caught up to our needs and are fitting higher end amps with quality adjustable DSPs.

To her point though, you van effectively run the whole system off one 5 channel amp if you want and be happy...maybe lol

I'm so used to running 8" drivers in my doors, 6.5 and 3" drivers up front (love me a widebander like the HAT L3SE) and then a single 10 or 12 sealed in the rear. The jeep though just poses a different conundrum..solvable, but different.

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[JLsport2019]

Yea, once we capture the signal before the amp we effectively remove all signal processing. For years I did that in my CTS-V and my Scatpack but then I had to feed it to a DSP (Rockford Fosgate 360 was what I used) and an amp . Now, the market has caught up to our needs and are fitting higher end amps with quality adjustable DSPs.

To her point though, you van effectively run the whole system off one 5 channel amp if you want and be happy...maybe lol

I'm so used to running 8" drivers in my doors, 6.5 and 3" drivers up front (love me a widebander like the HAT L3SE) and then a single 10 or 12 sealed in the rear. The jeep though just poses a different conundrum..solvable, but different.

Just buy a DSP amp?

Does this Alpine AMP have DSP?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007VSXGOQ/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A3LLMZ9K72U9P2&psc=1

 

[carstereochick]

I didn't know we had to use a preAMP to equalize (to zero on eq), then add a aftermarket DSP amp :-(

If you have the premium Alpine set up it's easy with the Pac AP4-CH41, but if you have the non amplified one, I prefer to use the JL Audio Fix-86 first to de-equalize and flatten out to get the clean pre-amp signal and then use your DSP to fine tune. Technically it's just the easier, cleaner sounding way to do it. Over the years I've done it both ways with a variety of DSP processors, but we have always gotten the best results with the two combined (Fix-86 combined with Twk-88 or Vxi amp or other DSP amp).

In some vehicles, it's not necessary to use a pre-amp (certain BMW's have a flat signal that does not vary with volume level). I haven't had a JL come in yet without the stock amp to test this, but if it's like the JK models and most Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge models, it will 100 percent need it. You can use an RTA and pink noise to see what the output looks like on the stock head unit and see how it varies depending on what volume level the radio is at.

The other factor at play is most stock head units adjust automatically for handsfree calling, the Fix-86 has a fix for that so that your DSP tuning doesn't throw off your handsfree calling function. Most stock head units are attenuating and constantly adjusting depending on volume level and whether or not you're in a phone call and you will see the curve change on the RTA.

But look at everything the Fix-86 does on its own (from the owner's manual). This is why even without a DSP, it can be used to completely upgrade a stock sound system:

• FiX 86 will measure the frequency response of the Front L&R and Rear L&R summed signals and automatically equalize them to a flat frequency response. These digital-domain corrections can vary from subtle to dramatic, depending on the amount of equalization engineered into the factory audio system.
• A simple calibration process initiates the automatic level adjustment, time correction, signal summing and equalization tasks.
• Once calibrated, the FiX 86 delivers corrected analog signals to your aftermarket signal processor or amplifier(s) via six low-distortion, line-level RCA-type outputs with 4-volt (RMS) capability. Front L&R, Rear L&R and non- fading (front + rear) subwoofer outputs permit retention of the OEM fader’s functionality while also offering dedicated subwoofer outputs.
• Differential-balanced input architecture ensures noise immunity and compatibility with most analog output OEM source units or amplifiers.
• Selectable turn-on options for activation include: conventional 12-volt trigger, automatic via Signal-Sensing or automatic via DC Offset-Sensing.
• FiX 86 provides a dedicated remote turn-on voltage output for activating aftermarket amplifiers or signal processors.
• JLidTM Controller Port allows connection of the optional DRC-205 (recommended - emphasis mine) Digital Remote Controllers (each sold separately), adding Master Volume Control and/or Subwoofer Level Control, Handsfree Optimization Mode and LED Status Reporting capabilities from the driver’s seat.
• USB port provides access to update firmware and advanced options.

I am not aware of any DSP amps that have this kind of functionality built in which is why we recommend using both.

 

[carstereochick]

Just buy a DSP amp?

Does this Alpine AMP have DSP?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007VSXGOQ/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A3LLMZ9K72U9P2&psc=1

No it doesn't, but it is a good amp. The JL Audio VX1000/5vi has the DSP built in so you could do that plus the FIx-86. Oh and look at that it's on sale right now.

 

[JLsport2019]

That JL Audio "Fix 86" module should the first thing someone should buy
when upgrading to a sound system!

A must from what I read

 

[Varilux]

Hey Pete - if you have the stock non-premium set up, the amp should be built into the head unit so you'd want to go the DSP route and attach it to the speaker level output from the factory radio. Probably the easiest way to add on a 4-channel amp and DSP is the Metra AX-DSP. I think it's not listed yet for 2019, Metra probably haven't tested/verified it yet. You can always call them and ask. Sometimes they just don't update their website right away.

Many thanks! I visited the Metra site and plugged in my vehicle info (I have a 2018, so they had everything vehicle specific listed).
I've cut and spliced a few amplifiers over the years, and the Metra plug-n-play looks just simple enough to motivate me to take it on.

So, let's make sure I'm following your reco to the letter... The plan is to purchase:
AX-DSP-CH5 harness and the AX-DSP processor
Alpine PDX-V9

If I'm understanding correctly, all I'll need to do is remove the radio, plug in the Metra harness and DSP processor, then run RCA cables out and back from the AX-DSP to the amp and that's it for wiring. I want to make sure I understand that properly, because that's a LOT easier than any amp I've ever installed! I already ran a 2 gauge power wire for the powered sub, so I'm guessing I can just feed the little sub and the amp with that.

I believe the 31 channel equalizer will enable me to get the mid-range I currently feel is lacking, so I may be able to live with the factory 4" speakers (or they'll make a nice item to put on the Christmas list for Santa :^).

 

[carstereochick]

Many thanks! I visited the Metra site and plugged in my vehicle info (I have a 2018, so they had everything vehicle specific listed).
I've cut and spliced a few amplifiers over the years, and the Metra plug-n-play looks just simple enough to motivate me to take it on.

So, let's make sure I'm following your reco to the letter... The plan is to purchase:
AX-DSP-CH5 harness and the AX-DSP processor
Alpine PDX-V9

If I'm understanding correctly, all I'll need to do is remove the radio, plug in the Metra harness and DSP processor, then run RCA cables out and back from the AX-DSP to the amp and that's it for wiring. I want to make sure I understand that properly, because that's a LOT easier than any amp I've ever installed! I already ran a 2 gauge power wire for the powered sub, so I'm guessing I can just feed the little sub and the amp with that.

I believe the 31 channel equalizer will enable me to get the mid-range I currently feel is lacking, so I may be able to live with the factory 4" speakers (or they'll make a nice item to put on the Christmas list for Santa :^).

Hey Pete - there's a little more to it than that. Of course you still have to run speaker wiring to your 4 channel and there are quite a few settings in the DSP itself. You can definitely use a fused distribution block to branch off of the 2 gauge power wire you've already ran.

I don't know how much power I'd put to the stock 4" speakers though, err on the lighter side. If you feel confident using the 31 band EQ to correct the factory output, the Metra AX-DSP may be the best solution for you. However, if you've never used an RTA and pink noise to set up a 31 band EQ, it may make more sense for you to go the JL Audio Fix-86 route because it self calibrates. From a sound quality perspective, I prefer the JL audio products, but I can understand the attraction of the Metra t harness and price point.

Take a peak at the install guide and harness guide for the Metra DSP to better understand what's involved in the app and setting it up and it would be helpful to also take a look at the install guide of the Fix-86. I just think the self calibration of the Fix-86 makes it more fool proof in getting a flat clean signal rather than trying to analyze the stock signal with an RTA and pink noise and then using the 31 band EQ to get the proper curve. And keep in mind if you want the fine tune control of an EQ you can always add the Twk-88 to the Fix-86.

I guess I'm just partial to the sound quality and set up of the JL Audio products over the Metra, but the Metra has an attractive t-harness and price point and convenient app for set up. I haven't tried the Metra DSP in the Jeep, tried it once in a Honda Civic EX-T coupe and the customer was very happy with the end result, but personally for me I would have preferred the Fix-86 and Twk-88.

 

[Sting_NC_USA]

No it doesn't, but it is a good amp. The JL Audio VX1000/5vi has the DSP built in so you could do that plus the FIx-86. Oh and look at that it's on sale right now.

+1 on this. I've been running the JL Audio VX800/8i fed by the JL Audio Fix86 since purchasing the Jeep, and the blend of control is impressive. Most are still learning that the VXi series provides full cross-over and EQ-ability for each of the channels, and it's adjustable on a Tablet, PC and some phones. There are also some great add-ons that allow you to change presets with a button push, or connect to your amp's controls via Bluetooth. Fun stuff!

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

 

[Varilux]

Hey Pete - there's a little more to it than that. If you've never used an RTA and pink noise to set up a 31 band EQ, it may make more sense for you to go the JL Audio Fix-86 route because it self calibrates. From a sound quality perspective, I prefer the JL audio products, but I can understand the attraction of the Metra t harness and price point.

I just think the self calibration of the Fix-86 makes it more fool proof in getting a flat clean signal rather than trying to analyze the stock signal with an RTA and pink noise and then using the 31 band EQ to get the proper curve. And keep in mind if you want the fine tune control of an EQ you can always add the Twk-88 to the Fix-86.

Thanks again- great information. One question on the Fix-86 (which looks less frustrating on the set-up side). Will I need to install resistors in each channel (I believe I've read in other posts there is a need to install 32ohm resistors to keep the head unit from detecting a fault)?

Seems like the ideal solution would be a Metra-like harness that works with the Fix-86 (or just drive up to Connecticut and pay y'all to do an install :^)!

 

[carstereochick]

Thanks again- great information. One question on the Fix-86 (which looks less frustrating on the set-up side). Will I need to install resistors in each channel (I believe I've read in other posts there is a need to install 32ohm resistors to keep the head unit from detecting a fault)?

Seems like the ideal solution would be a Metra-like harness that works with the Fix-86 (or just drive up to Connecticut and pay y'all to do an install :^)!

Yeah, I've thought about that too using the Metra harness with the Fix-86. I assume so about the resistor, but I haven't had one come through our shop without the Alpine premium amp yet, so haven't had the opportunity to confirm. I have read that too about the radio needing to see a load first before it gives any output. I don't know that you need one on each channel though, but maybe the previous poster Sting NC USA who used a Fix-86 and Vxi amp can confirm that for us? Or maybe we need to open up a shop in Texas, I tell you this CT weather is killing me. Ridiculously long winters and should be finally getting nice here, but we haven't had a sunny day in 12 days and looks like rain/clouds for the next 5

 

[carstereochick]

+1 on this. I've been running the JL Audio VX800/8i fed by the JL Audio Fix86 since purchasing the Jeep, and the blend of control is impressive. Most are still learning that the VXi series provides full cross-over and EQ-ability for each of the channels, and it's adjustable on a Tablet, PC and some phones. There are also some great add-ons that allow you to change presets with a button push, or connect to your amp's controls via Bluetooth. Fun stuff!

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Thank you! Quick question on your install - did you have to put a resistor in line on the factory speaker lines to trick the radio into providing output? Or did the Fix-86 accommodate that? We haven't had a JL come through our shop with the basic audio system yet and I read on the Metra AX-DSP you need to create a load on the speaker lines to trick the radio into giving output.

 

[RubenZ]

So I decided to replace my Soundbar speakers with JL Audio C2 400 and 350's and I gotta say for the almost 200.00 I spent its shit. I'm going to be returning back to stock. In doing so, I also noticed the soundbar doesn't seem to really add anything to the overall sound. Its so weak compared to the Front speakers as can bee seen by just moving the balance. Honestly I'm not even sure what the purpose of the soundbar is in the non-Alpine systems. Unless I'm doing something wrong here that I don't know about.

 

[mlb777]

Thank you, glad I can help. Which stereo set up do you have? Just to clarify, you mean with them just being powered off the factory stereo?

Agreed..fantastic post! So I purchased the alpine 23wra upgrade because nobody around me could give me answers on an easier install for less than a couple grand. Here's my question. Additional Power via alpine amp is solid, new alpine tweeters and sub are a nice richer sound improvement and the power and sound quality of the existing knee speakers is good enough for a fairly critical ear. The roll bar speakers have and continue to be tinny with no real base and no clear highs. Is there any recommendation to now swap out the roll bar speakers to this setup that will improve that portion of the system? Thanks for any thoughts...

Oh...and if anyone is like me and wants a fairly easy 'plug and play option that does improve overall sound quality and power, you should NOT buy the alpine upgrade at current price (1200 or 1300???) The cost online seems to fluctuate up and down...I found mine via a new purchase from a reputable ebay audio company and sent them a 'best offer' that they accepted for several hundred dollars less than the 1200 offering. Probably still a bit pricey, but the easy plug and play to the non alpine radio made it pretty easy to put in...

 

[Steve Cornell]

So I decided to replace my Soundbar speakers with JL Audio C2 400 and 350's and I gotta say for the almost 200.00 I spent its shit. I'm going to be returning back to stock. In doing so, I also noticed the soundbar doesn't seem to really add anything to the overall sound. Its so weak compared to the Front speakers as can bee seen by just moving the balance. Honestly I'm not even sure what the purpose of the soundbar is in the non-Alpine systems. Unless I'm doing something wrong here that I don't know about.

These speakers that come factory in the Jeep, (while cheap) are engineered to produce the best sound in a small ported enclosure, the Engineers were given a mission to get the most sound at the cheapest price, the small ported enclosures are designed to produce decent lower frequencies and mid bass from a very small and cheap speaker (just like some of the small Bluetooth speakers seem to sound amazing for as small as they are)
The issue is that you are installing a much higher quality speaker in an enclosure designed for a completely different speaker, I'm sure the higher frequencies are much louder and cleaner but as you have found you lost all of your lower frequencies.
Every speaker has different parameters and while I plan to install a complete system in my new JL I haven't had the chance to experiment with speakers yet but I would bet it's going to take a lot more that placing another speaker in the existing enclosure, possible getting rid of the port and sealing up the enclosure or removing the enclosure all together.

 

[JLsport2019]

So I decided to replace my Soundbar speakers with JL Audio C2 400 and 350's and I gotta say for the almost 200.00 I spent its shit. I'm going to be returning back to stock. In doing so, I also noticed the soundbar doesn't seem to really add anything to the overall sound. Its so weak compared to the Front speakers as can bee seen by just moving the balance. Honestly I'm not even sure what the purpose of the soundbar is in the non-Alpine systems. Unless I'm doing something wrong here that I don't know about.

Yup,
I had that same set up in the SoundBar.
SoundBar needs to be as much as possible Dynamat, and PolyFiL cotton stuffed..

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