Return of Steering Challenges

[thadius65]

The shop that has been doing my work indicated that using these 1/4" longer Mopar LCAs is problematic due to it only pushing the bottom of the front forward and causing geometry issues elsewhere. Some many different opinions.....

I am going to remove the track bar first and replace with stock OEM and see what that does. Depending on that outcome will determine next steps.

Sponsored

 

[NPE102414]

The shop that has been doing my work indicated that using these 1/4" longer Mopar LCAs is problematic due to it only pushing the bottom of the front forward and causing geometry issues elsewhere. Some many different opinions.....

I am going to remove the track bar first and replace with stock OEM and see what that does. Depending on that outcome will determine next steps.

are you lifted or stock height?

 

[thadius65]

are you lifted or stock height?

All stock.

 

[Deadserial]

1/2"? That's terrible advice.

An 1/8” more than the updated factory recommended? It’s actually not terrible advice if you actually know what you’re taking about such as companies like steer smarts that recommend .5” as well.

 

[NPE102414]

All stock.

Longer control arms on stock height will increase caster which is good, but will also throw off your pinion angle which can cause driveline vibration in four-wheel-drive. But that doesn’t really have anything to do with your current issues. I would swap out that track bar and re assess. I am a huge TeraFlex fan but their track bar has some play in it which I don’t like. TeraFlex says it’s normal and I’m usually inclined to believe them but after switching to a Steer Smarts track bar I see how not normal it really is.

 

[word302]

An 1/8” more than the updated factory recommended? It’s actually not terrible advice if you actually know what you’re taking about such as companies like steer smarts that recommend .5” as well.

Are you talking degrees or inches? Cuz .5" of toe is insane.

 

[Deadserial]

Are you talking degrees or inches? Cuz .5" of toe is insane.

Oh wow... now who’s the idiot! Haha dang, yes I was referring to .5 degrees the whole time. If you’re setting it yourself set it to 1/8” toe in to get that around that number.

 

[NPE102414]

Are you talking degrees or inches? Cuz .5" of toe is insane.

I’m certain he doesn’t mean .5 inches. More than likely .05 degrees.

 

[NPE102414]

An 1/8” more than the updated factory recommended? It’s actually not terrible advice if you actually know what you’re taking about such as companies like steer smarts that recommend .5” as well.

Steer Smarts only recommends that if you’re using their tire rod though. I spoke to them at length about this because it goes against everything I’ve known but I agreed to try it because I am using their tie rod, drag link and track bar and it worked out well. I set mine at .06 total and it drives great.

 

[quietpeen]

The shop that has been doing my work indicated that using these 1/4" longer Mopar LCAs is problematic due to it only pushing the bottom of the front forward and causing geometry issues elsewhere. Some many different opinions.....

I am going to remove the track bar first and replace with stock OEM and see what that does. Depending on that outcome will determine next steps.

I would ask exactly where the longer lower control arms are throwing other geometry out? I’m sure many people have increased caster with only adjustable lower control arms and have had positive results(including me). Only difference for me is I installed a 2.5” spacer lift.

Did you install the track bar and lower control arms yourself? If not are you sure everything was torqued to spec? Is the new track bar length set to match the stock one exactly eye to eye? Since the alignment have you checked that the shop torqued everything they loosened back to spec?

I am not an expert by any means but have done a lot of reading and asked members a lot of questions and started making changes to my jeep myself and after my alignment today my jeep drives amazing compared to the day I drove it off the lot.

 

[NPE102414]

I would ask exactly where the longer lower control arms are throwing other geometry out? I’m sure many people have increased caster with only adjustable lower control arms and have had positive results(including me). Only difference for me is I installed a 2.5” spacer lift.

Did you install the track bar and lower control arms yourself? If not are you sure everything was torqued to spec? Is the new track but length set to match the stock one exactly eye to eye? Since the alignment have you checked that the shop torqued everything they loosened back to spec?

I am not an expert by any means but have done a lot of reading and asked members a lot of questions and starting making changes to my jeep myself and after my alignment today my jeep drives amazing compared to the day I drove it off the lot.

When a Jeep is lifted the stock control arms are to short pull the diff forward and out of proper geometry. When it’s not lifted and longer lower control arms are installed It pulls the difference back out of proper geometry, have to find the balance. I think they were probably just speaking in general terms because it really can’t knock anything else out of whack.

 

[quietpeen]

When a Jeep is lifted the stock control arms are to short pull the diff forward and out of proper geometry. When it’s not lifted and longer lower control arms are installed It pulls the difference back out of proper geometry, have to find the balance. I think they were probably just speaking in general terms because it really can’t knock anything else out of whack.

I agree but when it comes to caster vs. pinion angle you can’t have both, you either have good caster or a straight pinion angle or meet in the middle. Good thing for the JL’s is the FAD so that is not as much as a concern. That is the only geometry the alignment shop could have been talking about which wouldn’t cause wandering like he op described right?

I’m 100% not arguing with you lol, I am just hopefully stating properly what i have learned from this forum and knowledgeable members like you.

 

[NPE102414]

I agree but when it comes to caster vs. pinion angle you can’t have both, you either have good caster or a straight pinion angle or meet in the middle. Good thing for the JL’s is the FAD so that is not as much as a concern. That is the only geometry the alignment shop could have been talking about which wouldn’t cause wandering like he op described right?

I’m 100% not arguing with you lol, I am just hopefully stating properly what i have learned from this forum and knowledgeable members like you.

Well said my friend

 

[Jebb]

There is another steering geometry variable that I rarely see discussed and that is “camber”. Camber is the point at which the centerline of the tire contacts the road vs the vertical angle of the steering knuckle king pin.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/what-is-scrub-radius-and-why-is-it-important/

Wide tires and offset rims affect the camber. Many Jeeps run wide tires on offset rims which throws the camber way off. Small variations in the road surface - especially ruts and crowning - are amplified greatly when the “scrub radius” is excessive. More caster helps but can’t fix the issue.

Ideally the centerline of tire should contact the road at approximately the same point as the centerline of the kingpin. As I said above, most Jeeps, including stock are not set up like this. The result is that Jeep front wheels pivot in an arc (like wagon wheels) rather than rotating about a point on the road like a sedan. So steering wander and kick in a Jeep is more or less inevitable.

 

[word302]

There is another steering geometry variable that I rarely see discussed and that is “camber”. Camber is the point at which the centerline of the tire contacts the road vs the vertical angle of the steering knuckle king pin.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/what-is-scrub-radius-and-why-is-it-important/

Wide tires and offset rims affect the camber. Many Jeeps run wide tires on offset rims which throws the camber way off. Small variations in the road surface - especially ruts and crowning - are amplified greatly when the “scrub radius” is excessive. More caster helps but can’t fix the issue.

Ideally the centerline of tire should contact the road at approximately the same point as the centerline of the kingpin. As I said above, most Jeeps, including stock are not set up like this. The result is that Jeep front wheels pivot in an arc (like wagon wheels) rather than rotating about a point on the road like a sedan. So steering wander and kick in a Jeep is more or less inevitable.

You don't hear it discussed because it can't be adjusted without new ball joints/shims which most don't really recommend.

Sponsored