Jeep Values - Massive Decline

[Zandcwhite]

You are so confused on the actual state of the economy. It's you who is misled because it's actually doing well. And that's why interest rates are high right now, interest rates act as a braking mechanism for a hot economy.

You may not be doing well, but several of us have taken advantage of the good times and have more money in our pockets as a result.

Record inflation isn't a sign of a good economy. Wages for most aren't keeping up. Don't worry I'm doing fine. Sales of expensive suvs and trucks are down, shitbox sales are up...because most people can't afford gas. One could argue those people couldn't afford the expensive vehicles in the 1st place but the historic low interest rates allowed them to pretend like they could. I don't own a vehicle that gets more than 13mpg, but most Americans simply cannot afford that right now.

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[papapanny77]

They won't lower prices. They'll push incentives with rebates and financing to get the out-the-door money lower. On the back end they'll reduce production to get the supply glut cleared out. Then roll back incentives.

I think you’ll see prices fall on other a Stellantis products, Wrangler is a niche vehicle and suspect prices and value will persist ( market conditions are always cyclical)

 

[The Last Cowboy]

Record inflation isn't a sign of a good economy. Wages for most aren't keeping up. Don't worry I'm doing fine. Sales of expensive suvs and trucks are down, shitbox sales are up...because most people can't afford gas. One could argue those people couldn't afford the expensive vehicles in the 1st place but the historic low interest rates allowed them to pretend like they could. I don't own a vehicle that gets more than 13mpg, but most Americans simply cannot afford that right now.

Investments have done quite well during this time. Shitbox car prices are a result of supply and demand. And gas prices haven't been bad in quite some time, except in the anomalous market of California and a few other locals. For example much of the center of the nation has seen gas fluctuating between $2.30 and $3.00 for quite some time. Gas prices in California will never be closer to the average in the center of the country due to taxes and the shutdown of a major refinery there.

You do have a good point about wage stagnation, or even in some cases salary cuts. Some union workers got raises, but they were stagnant for quite some time before that. That's a contractual issue though, that they vote on. Inflation on goods has also been very real, and has an effect on most everyone who are wage earners.

So, even though investments have performed well during the last few years, consumer buying power has seriously eroded while wages, for the most part, have remained flat. The only thing that will improve wages is a demand for workers. And with improved wages comes inflation. It's a vicious cycle. If any of you aren't participating in 401/457/Roth investments, then do so. For the price each month of a car payment, in the long run you will gain much more than you put in. If you don't own your residence, buy one. Although real estate is currently not the investment it once was, it is still better to own than rent in the long term.

And that's what makes the economy of the last few years strange. High inflation, flat wages, while the investment markets perform well. So we haven't been in a true recession, although on the surface things seem otherwise.

 

[NWJeepr]

Investments have done quite well during this time. Shitbox car prices are a result of supply and demand. And gas prices haven't been bad in quite some time, except in the anomalous market of California and a few other locals. For example much of the center of the nation has seen gas fluctuating between $2.30 and $3.00 for quite some time. Gas prices in California will never be closer to the average in the center of the country due to taxes and the shutdown of a major refinery there.

You do have a good point about wage stagnation, or even in some cases salary cuts. Some union workers got raises, but they were stagnant for quite some time before that. That's a contractual issue though, that they vote on. Inflation on goods has also been very real, and has an effect on most everyone who are wage earners.

So, even though investments have performed well during the last few years, consumer buying power has seriously eroded while wages, for the most part, have remained flat. The only thing that will improve wages is a demand for workers. And with improved wages comes inflation. It's a vicious cycle. If any of you aren't participating in 401/457/Roth investments, then do so. For the price each month of a car payment, in the long run you will gain much more than you put in. If you don't own your residence, buy one. Although real estate is currently not the investment it once was, it is still better to own than rent in the long term.

And that's what makes the economy of the last few years strange. High inflation, flat wages, while the investment markets perform well. So we haven't been in a true recession, although on the surface things seem otherwise.

Is the wage piece really that weird? Historically (for a long time, now) wages haven't followed in step with productivity, or inflation. The new normal is if you want to increase your wage in a good economy, you'd better move and shake as a worker, renegotiate with a different employer, refuel, level-up, and command a better package. And do savvy things like actually invest and play longer games with money. Just staying in your role unless you're already well compensated AND with compensation tied to performance that can be influenced by market conditions, you're going to be stuck with nominal raises that can be outpaced by bigger economic conditions.

it's so perplexing, though. UAW workers did exactly as described above- renegotiated their contract relative to the market-, and people beat them with a stick on here. Jealousy, or lack of education?

Basic Wranglers really didn't increase that much in price. However, in the same time period, you were able to buy a Hybrid version, a 392 version, Wranglers with insane options. $60k Wranglers were always too expensive given the intended demographic, and now even fewer people can swing them. Stella is going to have to chase her core customer again.

 

[Lemo]

That is absolutely a factor. But Stellantis raised prices like crazy during Covid so their problem is compounded. A Grand Cherokee is the price of a BMW X5. Sorry Stellantis isn’t close to the fit and finish as well as luxury reputation of BMW. Bottom line IMO they, as well as many of their dealers, got greedy. Took advantage of their consumers because of low supply. Now it’s backfiring big time and honestly I love seeing it backfire, well deserved lesson learned.

 

[Lemo]

That is absolutely a factor. But Stellantis raised prices like crazy during Covid so their problem is compounded. A Grand Cherokee is the price of a BMW X5. Sorry Stellantis isn’t close to the fit and finish as well as luxury reputation of BMW. Bottom line IMO they, as well as many of their dealers, got greedy. Took advantage of their consumers because of low supply. Now it’s backfiring big time and honestly I love seeing it backfire, well deserved lesson learned.

Completely agree. You want to charge a ton for vehicle, it had better be very popular and very well built. Wrangler has one, but not the other.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Completely agree. You want to charge a ton for vehicle, it had better be very popular and very well built. Wrangler has one, but not the other.

It might be better these days, but years ago none of the luxury brands were known for reliability. I don't know that I agree with that premise. Although, there's no other vehicle available from anyone else that I'd take 100 miles out dirt roads in the desert or run tough trails in moab when it's 104⁰ solo like we do regularly in the Jeep so I'd say they are very well built in my experience. Name 1 other vehicle you'd take through the Rubicon trail by yourself bone stock? We did just that in our 2022 with the xr package, and it is a $65k vehicle complete with stitched leather and seat heaters and adaptive cruise. 38k trouble free miles later it's lifted and rides on 39s. Show me the better built vehicle that's more reliable...after a Rubicon trail trip.

 

[Lemo]

It might be better these days, but years ago none of the luxury brands were known for reliability. I don't know that I agree with that premise. Although, there's no other vehicle available from anyone else that I'd take 100 miles out dirt roads in the desert or run tough trails in moab when it's 104⁰ solo like we do regularly in the Jeep so I'd say they are very well built in my experience. Name 1 other vehicle you'd take through the Rubicon trail by yourself bone stock? We did just that in our 2022 with the xr package, and it is a $65k vehicle complete with stitched leather and seat heaters and adaptive cruise. 38k trouble free miles later it's lifted and rides on 39s. Show me the better built vehicle that's more reliable...after a Rubicon trail trip.

I agree with you that there is no other bone stock I would take on the rubicon trail. For the other 99% of activities though…..

 

[Zandcwhite]

I agree with you that there is no other bone stock I would take on the rubicon trail. For the other 99% of activities though…..

But again, for those other activities how's their reliability after that trail trip? We won't even get into the body and paint damage they'd likely have. I wouldn't buy a Jeep if I was never going to wheel it... and yet that's all we currently own so clearly they work fine for the other 99% Those other manufactures can't get the full 100% no matter how hard they try.

 

[Lemo]

But again, for those other activities how's their reliability after that trail trip? We atomy even get into the body and paint damage they'd likely have.

What vehicles are you talking about? Also, not sure what you meant in your second sentence? What is “atomly”? Thanks.

 

[The Last Cowboy]

I agree with you that there is no other bone stock I would take on the rubicon trail. For the other 99% of activities though…..

And this is a problem for Jeep. No one needs a Jeep, or needs to travel the Rubicon trail. The trick is to make people want to spend money on a vehicle that can. And they will if the price is right. Festooning one with options and driving prices into luxury territory is not working. No matter how many options you can load into a Wrangler, it’s still rough around the edges. It’s not the vehicle that get’s put right out front at the valet parking lot. And, there are so many on the road today that it’s not even unusual to see one. So it doesn’t even have that going for it.

Jeep can cut a lot of content and let the aftermarket fill the gap. Hell, aftermarket leather and radios are better anyway. So is an aftwrmarket lift that allows for 35s. But, making those options factory has earned money for Jeep, and preserved some resale for those who didn’t want
To mess with a lift, wheels and tires. The question now is, will buyers be happy to modify to get what they want, or does everyone want a $70k Jeep for $45k dollars?

 

[Zandcwhite]

What vehicles are you talking about? Also, not sure what you meant in your second sentence? What is “atomly”? Thanks.

It was a typo, fixed it already. Any other vehicle. Take a stock bronco through the trail, tell me how the steering holds up not only for the trip but the next several thousand miles. Stock 4runner? Don't think you'd even make it. Rivian tried taking 3 through, 2 didn't make it and the 1 that did needed a tie rod replaced on the trail. Being boring and reliable in the Starbucks drive through doesn't impress me at all. It also doesn't interest me in the least bit. That's where Toyota earned its legendary reputation for reliability... boring vehicles that were mostly unchanged for decades. I've seen just as many broken Toyotas (percentage wise as obviously there's are far fewer out there) on tough trails as I have Jeeps. Anything you use hard can and will break. If you aren't going to use it hard, drive whatever floats your boat. I'm a firm believe in the saying "life's too short to drive boring vehicles", but you do you.

 

[Lemo]

And this is a problem for Jeep. No one needs a Jeep, or needs to travel the Rubicon trail. The trick is to make people want to spend money on a vehicle that can. And they will if the price is right. Festooning one with options and driving prices into luxury territory is not working. No matter how many options you can load into a Wrangler, it’s still rough around the edges. It’s not the vehicle that get’s put right out front at the valet parking lot. And, there are so many on the road today that it’s not even unusual to see one. So it doesn’t even have that going for it.

Jeep can cut a lot of content and let the aftermarket fill the gap. Hell, aftermarket leather and radios are better anyway. So is an aftwrmarket lift that allows for 35s. But, making those options factory has earned money for Jeep, and preserved some resale for those who didn’t want
To mess with a lift, wheels and tires. The question now is, will buyers be happy to modify to get what they want, or does everyone want a $70k Jeep for $45k dollars?

I personally would pay 60k-65k for a third wrangler IF it were more reliable. Sometimes it’s not even the big or expensive repairs that drive you crazy. It’s the little stuff, too. Water pump at 40,000 miles, wheel sensor at 8,000 miles, rainwater leaks beginning at 23,000 miles, constant pop ups on my ‘24 telling me there‘s a problem with the new infotainment system at 50 miles and ORP app that takes 7 months to fix via OTA update.

 

[Lemo]

It was a typo, fixed it already. Any other vehicle. Take a stock bronco through the trail, tell me how the steering holds up not only for the trip but the next several thousand miles. Stock 4runner? Don't think you'd even make it. Rivian tried taking 3 through, 2 didn't make it and the 1 that did needed a tie rod replaced on the trail. Being boring and reliable in the Starbucks drive through doesn't impress me at all. It also doesn't interest me in the least bit. That's where Toyota earned is legendary reputation for reliability... boring vehicles that were mostly unchanged for decades. I've seen just as many broken Toyotas (percentage wise as obviously there's are far fewer out there) on tough trails as I have Jeeps. Anything you use hard can and will break. If you aren't going to use it hard, drive whatever floats your boat. I'm a firm believe in the saying "life's too short to drive boring vehicles", but you do you.

OK, thanks. If you were driving back roads and camping from Alaska to Florida with no hard trails anticipated, would you opt for a wrangler, or would you take something else?

 

[Zandcwhite]

And this is a problem for Jeep. No one needs a Jeep, or needs to travel the Rubicon trail. The trick is to make people want to spend money on a vehicle that can. And they will if the price is right. Festooning one with options and driving prices into luxury territory is not working. No matter how many options you can load into a Wrangler, it’s still rough around the edges. It’s not the vehicle that get’s put right out front at the valet parking lot. And, there are so many on the road today that it’s not even unusual to see one. So it doesn’t even have that going for it.

Jeep can cut a lot of content and let the aftermarket fill the gap. Hell, aftermarket leather and radios are better anyway. So is an aftwrmarket lift that allows for 35s. But, making those options factory has earned money for Jeep, and preserved some resale for those who didn’t want
To mess with a lift, wheels and tires. The question now is, will buyers be happy to modify to get what they want, or does everyone want a $70k Jeep for $45k dollars?

You act like those options are standard equipment or mandatory? Buy a base sport if that's what you want? Why/how do you envision them increasing sales by offering us less options and only the base model we can already buy... for under $40k. They had record profits until the last couple years because most buyers want... and will gladly pay for those options from the factory. The manual is thousands cheaper than the auto... and makes up less than 10% of sales. Nobody wants a 4dr vehicle with manual windows and locks.

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