Jeep Clubs Liability?

[wcjeep]

Locally to me insurance might be required depending on which Federal Land or State Land is being used and the size of the group. We have had to split in two groups to avoid needing a permit and insurance for a casual non competitive Saturday run. We also do not allow alcohol on the trail. There is one trail system near me that attracts certain antics that should be avoided.

Sponsored

 

[roaniecowpony]

WTF was that spotter doing with his hands?

In our club the spotters explicitly ask if you want their assistance every time. If you don't confirm you don't get assistance.

IMO, that spotter's signals directly led to the driver rolling her jeep. Any of us with even modest experience would have ignored that spotter and told him to get out of our way. But the lady driving was clearly inexperienced and totally relying on him. I can't figure that guy out. Maybe it was his wife and he wanted to off her.

 

[Kbinspections]

I would not be on a board of any organization w/o D&O insurance, like others have stated.
I would think the club would have to be a not for profit.

Insurance is great protection for serious accidents but I also feel it does attract low level/bogus claims. Most attorneys won’t take a case with knowing there are assets or insurance to payout.

 

[Old Jeeper]

I'm a member of a Jeep club. We are not incorporated but do have club officers and by-laws. I occasionally lead runs and often spot or winch others. What, if any, liability is incurred a result of Jeep club activity. I'm aware that we can sue anyone for anything at anytime, God Bless America. Specifically, do I need some type of insurance beyond my vehicle and homeowners policy?

Be careful on this: Ok you are not Incorporated, but, BUT you have Officers and By-Laws. So you may not be Inc'd but you are operating as if you were by having officers and by-laws.

Skip the officer stuff and drop the by-laws. Here is how. you do it: Randy Rockman is the coordinator for the runs. So if want to nominate a run and or you want to lead the run you nominate just shoot Randy a e-mail giving him the dates and time to assemble at the meet-up place and Randy will shoot out an e-mail to all the folks that have provided an e-mail addy.

If Randy is off on vaca or a business trip, then Larry LowRider will take over from Randy till he gets back.

Note Randy and Larry are just VOLUNTEERS for an undetermined amount of time and somewhere may pass it on to someone else.

We assemble at the air-down spot at 9 am, we leave at 9:30 on the nose.

Who leads? JimBob nominated the Run on JeepBeater Trail. He says he will lead OR he does not want to lead but at the air down he will ask for a volunteer and if no one else wants to lead on that DANGEROUS trail then ole Cowboy Don will step up, he always does.

Here is how I do it:

I post a run to Moab. I will arrive at the City Market Parking lot at 9 am on Sunday (week-long) I will lead all 6 days M-S, I will be your spotter and I will be the guy with the winch when needed.. We will meet at City Market every morning at 9 am and leave by 9:30 exactly. No one is obligated to run every day, I will lead every day whether you show up or not. I ask that you come with a full tank of gas and anything you want to eat for when we take a lunch break. In the event of breakage, we will not leave you on the trail if at all possible, just ensure you Jeep and yourself are prepared for 7+ rated trails, we decide which trail each morning by vote.

See ya at city market Monday 25 April. I will check in at the Empty Arms Inn on Sunday and I will arrive around 3 pm give me a call when get there if wish, we eat at Zaks Pizza around 6 or so...

I always give a safety briefing at the trailhead, then Follow Me!

No officers no by-laws just volunteers that want to do something and invite others along for the ride.

 

[MtCamper]

Old Jeeper, I don't see how your method would do anything to prevent suits. Let's say you are spotting and Nancy Newbee tips over. She thinks it is because of the route you told her to take, so she hires an attorney. I'm reaching the point where I fear nothing can be done. I already pay over 10 grand a year for various insurances and I'm still not sure any of them would protect me.

 

[tomk62]

At the end of the day I don't think there's actually anything you can do to prevent lawsuits. The best you can do is limit them and protect yourself both legally and financially.

 

[azwjowner]

I have my own waiver for vehicle recoveries. It only covers property damage and not personal injury, which I intentionally left out as it's just for pulling a stuck vehicle out of the sand or such, not spotting on trails or leading trail runs, and if tugging on a stuck Jeep causes injury, that's what I have insurance for, and I didn't want to put people in the position of prospectively waiving personal injury claims. It is worth exactly as much as you would expect from a random anonymous guy on an internet forum, so you should consult a lawyer if you want legal advice.

Actual offroading with spotting is a different activity where participants are voluntarily assuming risks of injuries, and I would include personal injury in that kind of waiver.

 

[MtCamper]

It pisses me of to say so, but that's probably not a bad idea. I know I've passed several stuck vehicles for fear of liability. I usually make the stuck vehicle driver attach the shackle.

 

[Av8Chuck]

A lot of things have been conflated in this conversation and I don't want to add more but I'd like to give a different perspective.

Incorporation is a form of insurance. If your a corporation in good standing then you have a corporate veil that protect the shareholders. What that also gets you is access to affordable liability insurance. I own an Industrial Inspection company, we collect remote data for engineering purposes and travel off road for large utilities, oil pipelines, remote transmission towers etc., and a $10M liability policy is not that expensive. As a club you probably only need $2M.

If your a serious club with 50+ members, it's probably a good idea to be incorporated, with liability insurance and if I were an officer on that club I would want to offer training for recovery, spotting first aid etc.. Not so much to cover my ass from being sued but to mitigate as much risk as practicable on the trail to prevent serious injury. If your not willing to take these or other similar steps, that's fine - no one says you have to, then just meetup in a parking lot and go as a group of friends. But keep in mind that if your events are scheduled then the people responsible for organizing that schedule are at risk of being held responsible.

We had a employee lose control of one of our vans, go off the road and end up about 200 feet below in a farmers field. The driver required a medivac and the only way to recover the totalled van was through a farmers field. To say that he was pissed off is an understatement. We removed all the equipment from the van we cared about and two weeks later when things dried out the farmer cut a road through his field so the recovery vehicles could remove the van.

It's probably a good idea that once a "club" starts to have regularly scheduled events, over a certain size of members - I don't know what that number is (?), to start running it like a business. Not simply to mitigate risk but to better manage it. You might not want some new enthusiastic jeep owner being a spotter or driving in the lead.

 

[Old Jeeper]

Old Jeeper, I don't see how your method would do anything to prevent suits. Let's say you are spotting and Nancy Newbee tips over. She thinks it is because of the route you told her to take, so she hires an attorney. I'm reaching the point where I fear nothing can be done. I already pay over 10 grand a year for various insurances and I'm still not sure any of them would protect me.

The way I do it...I post lets say on the forum. I am going to Moab, be there 25 Apr, wanna go, fine, no need to notify me, just be there a city market and either come with me or go as you please.

At the trailhead I assum responsiblity, why? Because I have done so much that I know how to spot, winch and get you over the trail in safety....Been doing this for over 20 years and I have run every trail we will run: Forwards and Backwards, by myself, repeatedly until I know the trail.

Pritchett Canyon. At the end of the week we PC and since almost everytime no one has ever done before. So all week we doing tough trails and I see who is good, better, best driver and the of PC its typically I get over the obstacle and move my Jeep out of the way and bring each Jeep over by spotting them.

I put down requirements to make the 7++ run: 3-4 in lift, 37 tires must be actual Off road tires, lockers F & R, wheels that can be aired down to 18 lbs min or Bead Locks which does knock some of the folks out for the PC run.

Beleive me I have seen a LOT of carnage out on the trail and in more often than not alcohol is involved. Which is why anogther rule is NO DRINKIN on the trail. I have seen 2 people get killed, drinking and stupidity: Hold my beer watch this! Leg cut off, hands managled, fingers lost.

That is why I take responsibility for those runs Iead and I have NEVER had any hurt, everyone has made it thru the run with little or no damage and I only lead on the difficult runs. If a 6 or less I just go to the back of the line and roll with it there.

 

[azwjowner]

It pisses me of to say so, but that's probably not a bad idea. I know I've passed several stuck vehicles for fear of liability. I usually make the stuck vehicle driver attach the shackle.

It shouldn't piss you off at all. Because here's what people don't realize - let's say you pull out a stuck vehicle and in doing so the bumper tears off. The folks you helped realize you were doing your best and so tell you not to worry about it. You part ways.

A few days later, they learn that with all the newfangled electronic sensors, the bumper replacement is $3000. They have comprehensive insurance with a $500 deductible, so they figure they'll just make an insurance claim under their comprehensive policy (not claiming liability against you). But their insurance company asks how it happened and when they say it was pulled off getting unstuck, the insurance company sees a way to recoup its loss on the claim, so they ask them if they have your contact info. They have to comply with their insurance company's requests or the claim gets denied. Maybe they don't know your license plate or name, so you're safe. But if they do have your info, now suddenly their insurance company files against yours, claiming that you're liable for the damages (called subrogation).

So even if you help people and those people don't want to cause any trouble for you, they still may accidentally implicate you and cause a claim against your insurance.

If you get a written waiver, the release of liability means there's no claim. If the above scenario happened, you would at least be able to present that waiver and extricate yourself from liability.

Now does this happen for a small claim like this? Probably not. But subrogation happens all the time and out of an abundance of caution, I'd rather have the waiver. The waiver isn't because I don't trust the person being helped; it's because I don't trust the insurance companies.

Sponsored