FORM - What Can Jeep Do to Improve Customer Interface

[Dabrakeman]

Having gotten into FORM for about 3 weeks for the first time recently on a vehicle owned since April 2022 I have had the delightful opportunity to learn a lot about fuel/oil refresh mode and why it occurs. Other than what is in the manual the attached file directly from Jeep Cares is perhaps the best official overview that I have seen. With most owners even after doing a fair amount of pre-purchase general research on the vehicle it is understandable that most will not know too much about this because it is not typically covered in major magazine comparative reviews and certainly not during the dealership buying experience. I would venture to say that most 4xe buyers do it primarily to handle their short trips in electric mode while having the ICE to enable worry free long hauls. So, most go through the process of getting into FORM, seeing the changes in electric usage allowances, trying to figure out what is happening and why and then getting hugely frustrated in the process of trying to figure out how to get out of it. So, the detail provided in the attached from Jeep is good, but, still to me the biggest missing element is some direct feedback from the vehicle to the driver as to where he or she stands relative to the whole entry and exit criteria of FORM. If this information were available perhaps somewhere in the Hybrid Apps windows I think much of the anxiety created by wondering what has happened to your $60k+ vehicle could be alleviated, making it easier on both customers and dealers. There is an algorithm calculating your exact status relative to FORM for both gas and oil for both entry and exit so the vehicle already knows this information, Jeep just needs to share the status (not the algorithm ? ) with the end customer.

Below is an example of what I at least think would be a hugely beneficial update to the onboard screens from Jeep:

Whether there is any space in the chip sets to do this I don't know but hopefully it would be something that could be implemented through a software TSB for current owners.

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[GATORB8]

I wonder if it's not a live monitorable data point in the OBD system. If so, you could at least get a glance at it if you know what you are looking for.

 

[Dabrakeman]

Seems if it were then dealers would be doing it?

 

[GATORB8]

Seems if it were then dealers would be doing it?

There is a ton of data available if you are looking for it, I wouldn't be surprised most haven't bothered to look.

 

[Dabrakeman]

There is a ton of data available if you are looking for it, I wouldn't be surprised most haven't bothered to look.

Have you seen any such data through OBD? Please share if you have.

 

[GATORB8]

Have you seen any such data through OBD? Please share if you have.

I wasn't specifically looking for FORM data, but there was live data in every module IIRC. I could literally see the active feedback from each of the parksense sensors individually.

My wife is out of town with the Jeep this week, but I'll try my fairly basic Foxwell NT210 when it's back to see if it can pull it. I was using a borrowed Autel last time I was hunting issues, and that's where I was able to get in the modules.

Maybe someone with JScan can try too.

 

[Dabrakeman]

I saw on another forum that PID's can be found relating to when you can or cannot use electric or turn off the engine. Specifically the Burnoff_Allow_EO if FALSE then you get the FORM message (for oil dilution). However, I do not know whether or not it can be determined what criteria is being evaluated and whether the "relative" result of that evaluation to the TRUE or FALSE threshold is available.

 

[alphawolff]

Seems if it were then dealers would be doing it?

There's actually an entire section dedicated to FORM in wi-tech. Under OBD2 monitors I believe. It'll list every condition that could cause it and what's currently causing it. I'm unaware if you're actually able to see stuff like oil dilution in a % though

 

[Dabrakeman]

Again it is the proximity to entry and exit that would be beneficial. Confirmation through PID that you are in or not in FORM and just what type seems of limited value. Fill your tank and if still in FORM then you know it is oil dilution.

I had always kept my E-Save in the non-charge mode but that seems to allow more prevalence of stop start cycles in city traffic so may be best to leave it in charge mode unless on the highway and don't need charge.

 

[Kfamous]

Having gotten into FORM for about 3 weeks for the first time recently on a vehicle owned since April 2022 I have had the delightful opportunity to learn a lot about fuel/oil refresh mode and why it occurs. Other than what is in the manual the attached file directly from Jeep Cares is perhaps the best official overview that I have seen. With most owners even after doing a fair amount of pre-purchase general research on the vehicle it is understandable that most will not know too much about this because it is not typically covered in major magazine comparative reviews and certainly not during the dealership buying experience. I would venture to say that most 4xe buyers do it primarily to handle their short trips in electric mode while having the ICE to enable worry free long hauls. So, most go through the process of getting into FORM, seeing the changes in electric usage allowances, trying to figure out what is happening and why and then getting hugely frustrated in the process of trying to figure out how to get out of it. So, the detail provided in the attached from Jeep is good, but, still to me the biggest missing element is some direct feedback from the vehicle to the driver as to where he or she stands relative to the whole entry and exit criteria of FORM. If this information were available perhaps somewhere in the Hybrid Apps windows I think much of the anxiety created by wondering what has happened to your $60k+ vehicle could be alleviated, making it easier on both customers and dealers. There is an algorithm calculating your exact status relative to FORM for both gas and oil for both entry and exit so the vehicle already knows this information, Jeep just needs to share the status (not the algorithm ? ) with the end customer.

Below is an example of what I at least think would be a hugely beneficial update to the onboard screens from Jeep:

Whether there is any space in the chip sets to do this I don't know but hopefully it would be something that could be implemented through a software TSB for current owners.

Thank you for posting the attachment, super helpful!!!

 

[wibornz]

They could hire young children with ADHD. I am sure that it would not hurt them. Probably may improve service some.

 

[BXFXJeep]

Again it is the proximity to entry and exit that would be beneficial. Confirmation through PID that you are in or not in FORM and just what type seems of limited value. Fill your tank and if still in FORM then you know it is oil dilution.

I had always kept my E-Save in the non-charge mode but that seems to allow more prevalence of stop start cycles in city traffic so may be best to leave it in charge mode unless on the highway and don't need charge.

I used to do E-Save charge, now I use the manual shifter, in the city, within 30 minutes I can get the temp to 100

I hate the stop|start that's why I was using e-save charge.

Before I put it in manual, I e-save charge to get it warmed up, then shift to manual, then put it in Hybrid.

When I'm back at a charger, I'll take it out of manual, take of the HVAC, then put it back in electric before shutting down.

I find E-Save charge only gets the temperature to around 90, vs manual 95-100 range.

 

[Dabrakeman]

Although I got out of FORM last week I have only learned qualitatively what promotes entry and exit and as a result am probably driving overall less efficiently than if I know where I stood exactly relative to reentry into FORM. Unless I know for a fact I can finish my trip in electric I now do the whole trip in gas mode. Say my trip is 30 miles. Will 10 miles getting oil up to ~170F help me or hurt me relative to FORM??? Don't know. What about 7 miles and 160F or 15 miles and 175F...

 

[jmccorm]

I've made mentioned this discussion over at the JEEP HACKING CAN-C / CAN-UDS ! (Reverse Engineering) thread.

The idea I had was that we could arrive a since Average Engine RPM figured based upon data already collected by the BCM for Oil Change Statistics. By using Engine Revolutions (since oil change) and Hours (since oil change), we could then calculate an Average Engine RPM (since oil change).

Engine RPMs would be tied to engine heat, which would be tied to the cookoff temperature for fuel in the crankcase oil.

But there are a lot of unknowns, and we'd need one of our good hackers like @redracer with a 4xe and some CAN bus hacking tools to try it out to see if he can get anywhere with a number.

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