EV vs ICE

[BXFXJeep]

I think your right on most of that but not true on the affordable or reliable part, Chevy Bolt, $24,000. Love it, zero problems (so far).

I very doubtful they are making a sustainable profit from the Chevy Bolt.

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[AFD]

Really - two words to softly and respectfully call your comment hypocritical - block heaters.

If you need to plug in your damn ICE engine to keep it from freezing from within overnight, can't you give the burgeoning EV market just a bit of room to come up with a solution* ?

*(there already is one but not worth mentioning here at all)

Not really hypocritical since I've never once owned a block heater for any of my vehicles, but I've definitely had a few sub-0 mornings where my vehicle took a few tries to turn over, but afaik, that was mostly due to an already aging battery. And that's just with a standard old-school battery, which fairs a bit better than lithium in extreme cold.

Maybe a similar solution would work for keeping EV batteries warm? I'm honestly not sure, but it seems like a good idea that might work for colder climates. And to avoid further battery drain by running the heater while parked, maybe have it set to turn off or run less often unless the vehicle is actually plugged in and charging. Seems like it would be similar in idea to the coolant lines used to keep the lithium batteries temps in check, but somehow able to regulate both ends of the spectrum. Honestly not sure why this isn't a thing yet.

 

[Jeep to EVC]

I think we also need to look at vehicle ownership in the context of how many people actually know how to change a spare tire, and there in lies the problem, people are buying ? they know nothing about, and when they are left stranded it's the vehicle not them at fault.

EVs are like VCRs with the flashing 12:00

This is kinda' misleading, I'd say a half truth.

EVs, even the Jeep EVC I'm build all have built in Limp Home functions. ALL of them. Mostly dealing with running out of juice, usually below 20% SOC (State of Charge - the functional equivalent of the fuel lit flashing). That coupled with the VERY low side of the road fail rates (AAA numbers as a percentage of calls they get).

BUT, you are 100% correct - if your EV is disabled for any number of reasons, (condensation warning, over charge, under charge, interlock problem, tons of safety issues, etc.) - you're dead, call a tow truck, you can't fix it on the side of the road.

There is NO lift up the hood, spot the lose X and re-hook it up and off you go.

Now, that being said, it's the same for ALL modern ICE vehicles.

 

[BXFXJeep]

This is kinda' misleading, I'd say a half truth.

EVs, even the Jeep EVC I'm build all have built in Limp Home functions. ALL of them. Mostly dealing with running out of juice, usually below 20% SOC (State of Charge - the functional equivalent of the fuel lit flashing). That coupled with the VERY low side of the road fail rates (AAA numbers as a percentage of calls they get).

BUT, you are 100% correct - if your EV is disabled for any number of reasons, (condensation warning, over charge, under charge, interlock problem, tons of safety issues, etc.) - you're dead, call a tow truck, you can't fix it on the side of the road.

There is NO lift up the hood, spot the lose X and re-hook it up and off you go.

Now, that being said, it's the same for ALL modern ICE vehicles.

No one should put themselves in the position to be limping to a super charger in a cold snap.

Someone said it was dozen if them from the same company, management should have used that as an evaluation.

 

[Jeep to EVC]

I very doubtful they are making a sustainable profit from the Chevy Bolt.

Okay, so, this is a super sticky one for me.

I would like to remind EVERYONE that GM invented the EV1 and killed it.

Please consider what the automotive world would look like NOW if GM hadn't made the biggest mistake of any large company in history since the Wright Brothers failed to trademark commercial flight.

Elon would still be getting stoned with all his PayPal cash and not treating us to his general insanity (yes, SpacX is one of the most amazing things ever but, not important right now...).

Tesla lost money for a long time before it became VERY profitable (same with Amazon, not related..).

If they, the American Auto Co Collective, would be out of business if they ALL haven't invested HEAVEY in EV. Their per vehicle profits are HUGE compared to ICE vehicles for one reason alone - less parts which means less vendors.

They're getting punched in the nut sack on the battery manufacturing side - it's tough. That's why so many of them, if not all, are now partnering with battery manufactures and spending ungodly-gobs of cash to get to solid-state batteries to market.

Pray that happens.

 

[JLfromCA]

“Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas car”

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...rtz-sell-about-20000-evs-us-fleet-2024-01-11/

 

[Jeep to EVC]

No one should put themselves in the position to be limping to a super charger in a cold snap.

Someone said it was dozen if them from the same company, management should have used that as an evaluation.

Again, I think you're kinda' exaggerating the same problem with ICE, you are limping to a gas station, hopefully, right?? Out of gas is the same, si?

Also, you don't have to make it to a super charger. As long as you aren't below a certain level of charge, you can warm up the batteries, it's mostly automatic now, and charge anywhere.

SIDE NOTE, no, you can't charge in super cold conditions UNLESS you have a smart enough vehicle that 'conditions' the battery - warms it up to above 10C (50F, everything in EV is Celsius , YET another reason to hate all things EVs, pile on, go ahead, I hate converting in my head also!).

AND, come on, would you go out in crazy cold without a plan and a full tank? NO, you're smart, you'd make a plan, know your options.

Why would an EV owner be any different?!? When you buy an EV, it doesn't come with magical powers. More so, I would think, much more because of the obviousness of less service stations to help you out.

 

[2nd 392]

RIGHT, I know I'm off topic here but WTF with gas rates in SoCal!!! $6++/gal one day and $4 & change the next -forget it here, it's sooo stupid.

Sorry, really pisses me off.

Now back to our normally scheduled rants...

Yes— energy policies do matter significantly.
When do the laws of diminishing returns effect mpg and emissions regulation standards ?
Still have Dad’s 50 3A , it will likely outlast my 21
Already have range anxiety with my e-lawnmower that I can’t put a pint of gas in and finish the job
All propulsion options have pro’s and con’s , freedom of choice needed
Some of us Jeeper’s have more than one Jeep purpose. Jeep didn’t offer it so I stuffed it under the hood, a 63 Corv-illys MD, two friends also did Chevy, one Ford, even one Studebaker swap. Jeep truly never offered a performance option before the 392. Some may consider the V8 CJ’s as such but the smog V8’s were introduced with the same ~160 hp as the Buick V6 creeping up ~20 hp during production years.

 

[Jeep to EVC]

“Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas car”

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...rtz-sell-about-20000-evs-us-fleet-2024-01-11/

Come on, come on, come on - screaming in bold doesn't make it correct. That headline seems to be the only thing one side reads in that entire story. Open another adult beverage, settle into your favorite Lazy-Boy and read the entire post, down at the bottom it says this:

"Expenses related to collision and damage, primarily associated with EVs, remained high in the quarter," Hertz said in a regulatory filing on Thursday.
The company, which had earlier planned to order 100,000 Tesla vehicles by 2022 end and 65,000 units from Polestar over five years, said it would focus on improving profitability for the rest of its EV fleet.

German rental car company Sixt said in December it had not purchased Tesla vehicles since 2022 and was selling its fleet of Teslas "as part of our regular de-fleeting process".
It still plans to offer a range of electrified vehicles and "stick to our goal to electrify 70-90 percent of our rental fleet in Europe by 2030", it said on Thursday.

They turned around and bought MORE Bolts and Polestars, not cause they love them, they are just cheaper to rent and maintain.

NOWHERE does it say that Hertz or Sixt (or any other rental co.) is not continuing to buy and rent EVs - nowhere. The most interesting thing it does say is it's giving pause to the market as it relates to fleet purchases.

Tesla's are not cheap to fix for many reasons, not the least of which is a lot of the peripheral important parts are right on the edges of the car - sensors, small radiators, cameras, stuff. Small fender benders are not easy to just slap back together.

Once again, bring this back to me, because after all, isn't that what's truly impotent here, I've had 6 modern Land Cruisers. All killed by my sons or my good and kind Ex. With the exception of one of them, all the repairs were small to me but EVERY one was 'totaled' by the insurance company because they are just too damn expensive to fix. I HATE THIS about them but that's where we are in all modern cars.

 

[Jeep to EVC]

Not really hypocritical since I've never once owned a block heater for any of my vehicles, but I've definitely had a few sub-0 mornings where my vehicle took a few tries to turn over, but afaik, that was mostly due to an already aging battery. And that's just with a standard old-school battery, which fairs a bit better than lithium in extreme cold.

Maybe a similar solution would work for keeping EV batteries warm? I'm honestly not sure, but it seems like a good idea that might work for colder climates. And to avoid further battery drain by running the heater while parked, maybe have it set to turn off or run less often unless the vehicle is actually plugged in and charging. Seems like it would be similar in idea to the coolant lines used to keep the lithium batteries temps in check, but somehow able to regulate both ends of the spectrum. Honestly not sure why this isn't a thing yet.

EXACTLY, and some (most if not all) EVs do that now, completely automatically. Gotta' figure it out.

Here's a problem I hadn't heard of before, transport companies that move ICE and EVs across the county, sometimes taking a Chevy Bolt from GA to LA - through TX in the coldest snap ever. This happened to me...

The transport company knows now that all it's EV towage has to be fully charged for this exact reason.

I guess I'm sharing this because I think it point to the general problem with EVs and many (most) people on this site (and all others) - the fear of the unknown. We're wired this way, it's why we made it this far - change is scary has hell.

Saying that does little to assuage (put aside) the fears. BUT, there's usually a solution and it doesn't necessary require a lemming approach to running them all off a cliff (ooof, poor fishys).

 

[BXFXJeep]

Again, I think you're kinda' exaggerating the same problem with ICE, you are limping to a gas station, hopefully, right?? Out of gas is the same, si?

Also, you don't have to make it to a super charger. As long as you aren't below a certain level of charge, you can warm up the batteries, it's mostly automatic now, and charge anywhere.

SIDE NOTE, no, you can't charge in super cold conditions UNLESS you have a smart enough vehicle that 'conditions' the battery - warms it up to above 10C (50F, everything in EV is Celsius , YET another reason to hate all things EVs, pile on, go ahead, I hate converting in my head also!).

AND, come on, would you go out in crazy cold without a plan and a full tank? NO, you're smart, you'd make a plan, know your options.

Why would an EV owner be any different?!? When you buy an EV, it doesn't come with magical powers. More so, I would think, much more because of the obviousness of less service stations to help you out.

I'm not talking in general, I'm just referring to the Chicago dozen making news

As for limping to a gas station, you can just call a buddy to bring a bucket of gas.

 

[JLfromCA]

Come on, come on, come on - screaming in bold doesn't make it correct. That headline seems to be the only thing one side reads in that entire story. Open another adult beverage, settle into your favorite Lazy-Boy and read the entire post, down at the bottom it says this:

"Expenses related to collision and damage, primarily associated with EVs, remained high in the quarter," Hertz said in a regulatory filing on Thursday.
The company, which had earlier planned to order 100,000 Tesla vehicles by 2022 end and 65,000 units from Polestar over five years, said it would focus on improving profitability for the rest of its EV fleet.

German rental car company Sixt said in December it had not purchased Tesla vehicles since 2022 and was selling its fleet of Teslas "as part of our regular de-fleeting process".
It still plans to offer a range of electrified vehicles and "stick to our goal to electrify 70-90 percent of our rental fleet in Europe by 2030", it said on Thursday.

They turned around and bought MORE Bolts and Polestars, not cause they love them, they are just cheaper to rent and maintain.

NOWHERE does it say that Hertz or Sixt (or any other rental co.) is not continuing to buy and rent EVs - nowhere. The most interesting thing it does say is it's giving pause to the market as it relates to fleet purchases.

Tesla's are not cheap to fix for many reasons, not the least of which is a lot of the peripheral important parts are right on the edges of the car - sensors, small radiators, cameras, stuff. Small fender benders are not easy to just slap back together.

Once again, bring this back to me, because after all, isn't that what's truly impotent here, I've had 6 modern Land Cruisers. All killed by my sons or my good and kind Ex. With the exception of one of them, all the repairs were small to me but EVERY one was 'totaled' by the insurance company because they are just too damn expensive to fix. I HATE THIS about them but that's where we are in all modern cars.

you seem triggered, I didn’t write the headline or the article.

 

[BXFXJeep]

Okay, so, this is a super sticky one for me.

I would like to remind EVERYONE that GM invented the EV1 and killed it.

Please consider what the automotive world would look like NOW if GM hadn't made the biggest mistake of any large company in history since the Wright Brothers failed to trademark commercial flight.

Elon would still be getting stoned with all his PayPal cash and not treating us to his general insanity (yes, SpacX is one of the most amazing things ever but, not important right now...).

Tesla lost money for a long time before it became VERY profitable (same with Amazon, not related..).

If they, the American Auto Co Collective, would be out of business if they ALL haven't invested HEAVEY in EV. Their per vehicle profits are HUGE compared to ICE vehicles for one reason alone - less parts which means less vendors.

They're getting punched in the nut sack on the battery manufacturing side - it's tough. That's why so many of them, if not all, are now partnering with battery manufactures and spending ungodly-gobs of cash to get to solid-state batteries to market.

Pray that happens.

The big 3 cannot make a profitable affordable car period gas or EV

The 10 cheapest vehicles sold in America today are all non big 3.

Their ATP is something like $50,000

 

[JLfromCA]

“Hertz dumping 20,000 EVs is a warning to electric-car owners everywhere”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/new...to-electric-car-owners-everywhere/ar-AA1mSpng

 

[JLfromCA]

“EVs are running out of customers — and some dealers don't want them anymore”
https://www.businessinsider.com/dea...ctric-cars-demand-cools-inventory-2023-8?op=1

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