Auxiliary battery delete problems

[SargeDiesel]

Andy, let's take a stroll down memory lane. First you accuse me of selling the idea of 2 batteries in the JL. I did not such thing. I explained to you how I did no such thing.

Then above you claim that I've ignored the trouble that having 2 batteries causes.

First---it's not two batteries that's IMHO technically the problem with the dual AGM battery JL design. It's two batteries hooked up in parallel of dissimilar size, which IMHO should have been of larger size, like the Genesis Offroad kit (yes, I'm aware that the kits Group 25 batteries are individually smaller in size that a JL's H6, let along H7 stock main battery), and ideally swapped periodically, physically or electronically in their roles as Aux and Main battery.

Wait, let me revise that before you go claiming that the (original) Genesis Offroad cut has voltage cutoffs unlike the factory dual AGM battery JL...the new Genesis https://www.genesisoffroad.com/2018-Jeep-JL-JT-Stock-Battery-Replacement-Kit_p_295.html which leaves the factory wiring intact, just substituting Group 25 batteries for both the main and Aux battery.

Second, check the opening of my second to last paragraph where I write " And of course I get that this two battery system stinks in design." Notice my use of the word "this." I dislike the dissimilar size battery design, not having two batteries.

The other forums for vehicles with one battery running ESS systems, and few complaints, are by in large composed of vehicles (the Bronco being the exception) not outfitted with the (amount of) energy hungry appliances Wrangler owners can tend to add.

These are my tenants as seen in many posts here.

* I run two factory batteries and ESS. I also trickle charge wtih a solar panel on my roof. I outdoor park. I don't recommend you do what I do or not. I simply think that if you aren't going to change the factory setup that you trickle charge: shore or solar based. I also look into changing my batteries about every 3 years or sooner even if they are doing great.

* I recommend, when replacing the main battery, that if you're running an H6 size, move to an H7. It's the same price and provides more power.

* If you want to get rid of the ESS battery I recommend that you turn off the ESS system by button push or tech, and pull Fuse 42. I do not recommend simply disconnecting the ESS battery, not pulling Fuse 42, and letting the vehicle turn the ESS off for you via a warning light in the dash as Jebiruph, the author of these one battery techniques (the original being jumpering N1 and N2 in the Power Distribution Center) feels that the vehicle's display of this light can be indicative of other problems that owners forcing it on but just disconnecting the ESS battery can mask. (In early 2018s this will strand you.)

* I am fine with people just turning ESS off but point out that it won't of course address the issues with dual parallel dissimilar size batteries. I advocate, if you are turning ESS off and committed to not using it, that you are better off disconnecting the ESS battery, which if you want to remove as well, is fine with me, just insulate lose end cables.

* I fully acknowledge problems with the dual battery system in the dual AGM battery JLs (not be confused with dual battery E-Torque models) and am all for people who adopt one of Shane's offerings at Genesis Offroad, although I tell them that if they are buying his original JL kit (not the 2 new offerings) just for ESS, that such a decision is IMHO overkill. My primary issue with this factory system, again, are the dissimilar size of the batteries hooked up in parallel.

* I fully acknowledge that a similarly energy hungry appliance rich Bronco runs on one battery. I don't know this vehicle as well as the Wrangler (not that I'm a Wrangler expert) and won't advocate running ESS on one battery in dual AGM battery JLs because the cost/benefit analysis IMHO suggests the savings in fuel doesn't justify the risk exposure of getting stranded in an ESS event, despite the 12.4 volt cutoff you cite, given the potential for JL owners to have large power draws above and beyond engine cranking.

I hope we are done.

Andy,

Sometimes, you have to learn/know when to hold-em' and walk away

I'm still working on this myself. Don't get pulled down the rabbit hole, especially when there is alternative actions in play.
ENOUGH of my unsolicited advice.

I know this subject has been discussed as well, but since we are talking batteries and trickle charging...
Question:
How are you guys making your connections when trickle/maintenance charging ?
I remember @ShadowsPapa talking about this. But I need a refresher.

Are you disconnecting the negatives of the main/aux , and passing the IBS, charging them independently ?
Or
Are you leaving everything connected and charging both batteries at the same time ?

First -
As I understand it, you connect to the positive terminal of the main battery regardless of which method you choose.

I can see advantages to both.

Just connecting to the main, is easier but in my mind would take longer to charge. The downside, if there was an issue with one of the batteries, it would be more difficult to diagnose plus your voltage reading is both batteries combined and possibly not the same as they would be individually.

By separating the negatives, you bypass the IBS and get direct connections to each battery.
This would allow for diagnostics to be used for the maintainers that have recovery/repair/"tune-up capabilities. You also get the true voltage of each battery.

Is there a correct way ? Are both ways acceptable ?
Pro / cons of each method ?

Thanks

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[BRuby]

Seems 99% posting on this forum charge them together - while I charge them and desulfate them separately. Easy peasy just disconnect the ESS neg lead and use 2 smart chargers. Posted long ago on this topic with pics and everything showing my exact set-up.

Have 6# - 12V batteries for various mundane duties and all hold and drain down like new. Impossible I know. But it is what it is.

 

[AndySpill]

Andy,

Sometimes, you have to learn/know when to hold-em' and walk away

I'm still working on this myself. Don't get pulled down the rabbit hole, especially when there is alternative actions in play.
ENOUGH of my unsolicited advice.

I know this subject has been discussed as well, but since we are talking batteries and trickle charging...
Question:
How are you guys making your connections when trickle/maintenance charging ?
I remember @ShadowsPapa talking about this. But I need a refresher.

Hi Michael:

Irrespective of the number of AGM batteries your JL has, either by factory or owner design (i.e. removing the Aux) you simply cannot go wrong by hooking the trickle charger up to the main battery's terminals to charge all connected batteries.

If you have disconnected your Aux batter the trickle charger will only trickle charge the main battery. If you have a dual AGM battery JL and have kept it that way the vehicle keeps the two batteries in parallel while it is parked, so your trickle charger hooked up to the main battery's terminals will trickle charge both the main and Aux battery. If you've disconnected the batteries that gets discussed below.

Are you disconnecting the negatives of the main/aux , and passing the IBS, charging them independently ?

I've merely attached the eyelets that are on my trickle charger to the bolts on each of the main battery terminal's post brackets, leaving everything factory connected. But I run with a working ESS battery.

If you've disconnected the Aux battery then you probably want to charge the batteries independently. You need not go digging out the Aux battery to do this. The trickle charger--to just charge the Aux battery-- has its negative lead placed on the dangling cable that you disconnected from the main battery's negative post (whose distal end is the negative post of the Aux battery) and the positive post of the trickle charger can go on the main (that's not a typo: I said main) battery's positive post. Such action will only charge the Aux battery as it would be the only battery in this scenario to which the trickle charger has established a closed electrical loop (circuit) upon.

Or
Are you leaving everything connected and charging both batteries at the same time ?


First -
As I understand it, you connect to the positive terminal of the main battery regardless of which method you choose.

Yes, can can connect to the positive terminal of the main battery regardless of whether you charge the batteries together in parallel, or isolated them by removing the cable from the main battery's negative post, whose distal end is connected to the Aux battery's negative post. The only thing subject to change here is where you stick the negative lead of the trickle charger as discussed prior.

If both batteries in a dual AGM battery were connected it would matter little which positive terminal, main battery or Aux, and which negative terminal, main battery or Aux you connected your trickle charger to.

Correct, as the batteries are always connected in parallel, at least from the factory on dual AGM battery JLs, except for an instant at cold crank, and during ESS events, and provided Circuit 42 is intact and the Power Control Relay (PCR) may be energized: itself a normally closed relay, and open its closed (the PCR's) connection when energized to break the parallel connection between the batteries.

You could choose one post from the main battery and one from aux, or put the trickle charger exclusively on the main battery or exclusively on the Aux battery. From an electrical schematic view of things it would not matter. From a practical standpoint the main battery's post are simply more easily accessible.

Not only correct, but as you can see Michael, I don't read ahead, and have echoed the very sentiments you just expressed above.

I can see advantages to both.

I admit confusion here as to your "both" reference. I'm not sure if it pertains to which terminals you choose to connect to on parallel connected batteries, which we've covered that it doesn't matter, or the pros and cons of trickle charging each battery independently or in parallel, or perhaps something else

Just connecting to the main, is easier but in my mind would take longer to charge. The downside, if there was an issue with one of the batteries, it would be more difficult to diagnose plus your voltage reading is both batteries combined and possibly not the same as they would be individually.

If this concerns you then consider the installation of a knife switch like this at the main battery's negative terminal. When closed things are connected as factory, and when open, you can test or charge each battery independently.

Michael: the godfather of all this knowledge is Jerry Jebiruph. If you haven't seen his posts https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/3-6l-ess-dual-battery-consolidated-information.25377/ particularly this one where he demonstrates the ability to test or run with either or both batteries,
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/ess-dual-battery-management.60034/ you may find them interesting. I, like you, like all of us, am but a mere student--of what Jerry first brought to light, and we at best built upon from there.

By separating the negatives, you bypass the IBS and get direct connections to each battery.
This would allow for diagnostics to be used for the maintainers that have recovery/repair/"tune-up capabilities. You also get the true voltage of each battery.

Michael--you ask all the right questions. And it's not that I don't ask my share of wrong ones, but you sound like the conversations I had in my head a few years back about this.

To answer, I would say that for trickle charging you are completely content, if you haven't already separated the batteries to not do so. If you have separated the batteries I might be inclined to keep things that way and charge each battery independently.

If your concern is diagnostics, IMHO, without question the batteries have to be isolated so that a failing battery's condition isn't masked by its parallel connection with a good one that compensates for it in diagnostic readings--whether those readings come from simple voltage testing, or the far better gold standard of load testing, which tests a batteries ability to truly do what it needs to: accept and delivery power.

Is there a correct way ? Are both ways acceptable ?
Pro / cons of each method ?

Thanks

 

[BRuby]

Yeah Jerry and I had discussion on this specific topic many years ago - way before any forum members joining in only 2023. This has been done and dusted long ago:

 

[SargeDiesel]

Hi Michael:

Irrespective of the number of AGM batteries your JL has, either by factory or owner design (i.e. removing the Aux) you simply cannot go wrong by hooking the trickle charger up to the main battery's terminals to charge all connected batteries.

If you have disconnected your Aux batter the trickle charger will only trickle charge the main battery. If you have a dual AGM battery JL and have kept it that way the vehicle keeps the two batteries in parallel while it is parked, so your trickle charger hooked up to the main battery's terminals will trickle charge both the main and Aux battery. If you've disconnected the batteries that gets discussed below.


I've merely attached the eyelets that are on my trickle charger to the bolts on each of the main battery terminal's post brackets, leaving everything factory connected. But I run with a working ESS battery.

If you've disconnected the Aux battery then you probably want to charge the batteries independently. You need not go digging out the Aux battery to do this. The trickle charger--to just charge the Aux battery-- has its negative lead placed on the dangling cable that you disconnected from the main battery's negative post (whose distal end is the negative post of the Aux battery) and the positive post of the trickle charger can go on the main (that's not a typo: I said main) battery's positive post. Such action will only charge the Aux battery as it would be the only battery in this scenario to which the trickle charger has established a closed electrical loop (circuit) upon.




Yes, can can connect to the positive terminal of the main battery regardless of whether you charge the batteries together in parallel, or isolated them by removing the cable from the main battery's negative post, whose distal end is connected to the Aux battery's negative post. The only thing subject to change here is where you stick the negative lead of the trickle charger as discussed prior.



Correct, as the batteries are always connected in parallel, at least from the factory on dual AGM battery JLs, except for an instant at cold crank, and during ESS events, and provided Circuit 42 is intact and the Power Control Relay (PCR) may be energized: itself a normally closed relay, and open its closed (the PCR's) connection when energized to break the parallel connection between the batteries.




Not only correct, but as you can see Michael, I don't read ahead, and have echoed the very sentiments you just expressed above.




I admit confusion here as to your "both" reference. I'm not sure if it pertains to which terminals you choose to connect to on parallel connected batteries, which we've covered that it doesn't matter, or the pros and cons of trickle charging each battery independently or in parallel, or perhaps something else



If this concerns you then consider the installation of a knife switch like this at the main battery's negative terminal. When closed things are connected as factory, and when open, you can test or charge each battery independently.

Michael: the godfather of all this knowledge is Jerry Jebiruph. If you haven't seen his posts https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/3-6l-ess-dual-battery-consolidated-information.25377/ particularly this one where he demonstrates the ability to test or run with either or both batteries,
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/ess-dual-battery-management.60034/ you may find them interesting. I, like you, like all of us, am but a mere student--of what Jerry first brought to light, and we at best built upon from there.



Michael--you ask all the right questions. And it's not that I don't ask my share of wrong ones, but you sound like the conversations I had in my head a few years back about this.

To answer, I would say that for trickle charging you are completely content, if you haven't already separated the batteries to not do so. If you have separated the batteries I might be inclined to keep things that way and charge each battery independently.

If your concern is diagnostics, IMHO, without question the batteries have to be isolated so that a failing battery's condition isn't masked by its parallel connection with a good one that compensates for it in diagnostic readings--whether those readings come from simple voltage testing, or the far better gold standard of load testing, which tests a batteries ability to truly do what it needs to: accept and delivery power.

Thanks Andy.

I still have BOTH of my batteries connected.

I also have the leads of my charging extension connected to the +/- terminals of the main battery.

So to sum it up, if I may(and I understood correctly)

If you maintain both batteries, charge in parallel using the main battery's terminals.

If you have separated or want a precise diagnostics, then charge independently.

Hopefully I passed the class

As a side note:

I admit confusion here as to your "both" reference.

I was referring to both methods of charging the battery, in parallel or independently.
Also, just for clarification, I drive a JTRD.

Thanks again.

 

[SargeDiesel]

Seems 99% posting on this forum charge them together - while I charge them and desulfate them separately. Easy peasy just disconnect the ESS neg lead and use 2 smart chargers. Posted long ago on this topic with pics and everything showing my exact set-up.

Have 6# - 12V batteries for various mundane duties and all hold and drain down like new. Impossible I know. But it is what it is.

Thanks for the input. I apologize for the redundancy, but I haven't quite mastered the search function on the Gladiator or Wrangler forums.

 

[AndySpill]

Yeah Jerry and I had discussion on this specific topic many years ago - way before any forum members joining in only 2023. This has been done and dusted long ago:

Gee, if I only had just read in 2018 when I got my Sahara, before you, (not that, unlike you, I associate tenure with pecking order) and didn't start posting until 2023 when had the time in retirement, then I'd know as much as you champ.

You can't possible learn just reading, silly me.

Yep, done and dusted. Screw those new like we once were who need an introduction, or those who forgot and need a refresher course. This forum, where people supposedly learn, is only for those who already know everything.

It's attitudes like these that motivate me to each time answer a newbie's questions clearly and politely like the first time raised, or let others do it if I'm not in a patient mood.

 

[AndySpill]

Thanks Andy.

I still have BOTH of my batteries connected.

I also have the leads of my charging extension connected to the +/- terminals of the main battery.

So to sum it up, if I may(and I understood correctly)

If you maintain both batteries, charge in parallel using the main battery's terminals.

If you have separated or want a precise diagnostics, then charge independently.

Hopefully I passed the class

As a side note:

I was referring to both methods of charging the battery, in parallel or independently.
Also, just for clarification, I drive a JTRD.

Thanks again.

I agree.

 

[SargeDiesel]

Yeah Jerry and I had discussion on this specific topic many years ago - way before any forum members joining in only 2023. This has been done and dusted long ago:

Not sure what your point is, but thank you for co-pioneering this and providing the information to the forum.

Now if you posted a thread on the best way to search through 1000's of threads and the results didn't come up with over 25 pages, with atleast 20 threads each to wade through... that would be an accomplishment.

 

[andy29847]

Hmm? Have never heard that this is acceptable (perfectly ok and is a recommended course of action). Most everyone says to hook up and use the same size age type etc batteries - when hooking up in parallel. Maybe state your sources to prove your point.
Thx

It's basic electricity. Batteries in parallel are adding amps. The voltage remains the same. Add as many batteries as you want and the amp/hour capacity goes up. The requirements for adding batteries in parallel are: same type (AGM in your Jeep), same age, same voltage rating. YOU can look it up.

BTW, in spite of the seemingly well know requirements for batteries wired in parallel, it seems to be Jeep's policy to replace just one battery when doing warranty work. Heck, the 3rd time I took my jeep in for battery issues, they replaced the main battery with a filled lead acid battery. I didn't even notice they had done that until a sharp eyed reader on the forum called it to my attention. When I took the Jeep back to the dealer and pointed out their mistake, I finally got my 2 new AGM batteries.

It's my opinion that the aux battery was sized by the engineers for the times it would be standing alone - during a stop/start event. The rest of the time the 2 batteries function as ONE. Obviously, that works for most of the people most of the time. The biggest problem (as I perceive it ) is the volume and variety of symptoms when one battery nears the end of life.

 

[BRuby]

It's my opinion that the aux battery was sized by the engineers for the times it would be standing alone - during a stop/start event. The rest of the time the 2 batteries function as ONE. Obviously, that works for most of the people most of the time. The biggest problem (as I perceive it ) is the volume and variety of symptoms when one battery nears the end of life.

Hey as I posted my 2018 still has perfectly fine OEM batteries - so the JL electrical system works perfectly fine for me. But the hundreds of posts of horror stories is just that. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Just trying to keep things real is all.

But those that parrot whatever - without actually reading and comprehending - are simply clueless. A buffoon is a buffoon. Whatever.

Oh about starting my own thread - just pull up Jerry's - everything you need to know is right there. I only put that 2023 thing in there because that other poster neglected to read what Jerry wrote about this ages ago. Haha!

 

[SargeDiesel]

Hey as I posted my 2018 still has perfectly fine OEM batteries - so the JL electrical system works perfectly fine for me. But the hundreds of posts of horror stories is just that. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Just trying to keep things real is all.

But those that parrot whatever - without actually reading and comprehending - are simply clueless. A buffoon is a buffoon. Whatever.

Oh about starting my own thread - just pull up Jerry's - everything you need to know is right there. I only put that 2023 thing in there because that other poster neglected to read what Jerry wrote about this ages ago. Haha!

If you're referring to me, I joined both forums in 22.
I did read Jerry's post(at some point long ago).
I also stated, I needed a refresher... I did a search, but I came up empty, admittedly, I haven't mastered the forums search engine.
* if you were not referring to me, please disregard.

 

[BRuby]

Not sure what your point is, but thank you for co-pioneering this and providing the information to the forum.

Now if you posted a thread on the best way to search through 1000's of threads and the results didn't come up with over 25 pages, with atleast 20 threads each to wade through... that would be an accomplishment.

Yeah I know exactly what you mean. Is sometimes impossible to find what you want in an instant. Sometimes an old member will chime in about a topic. Most times not. I am on here sporadically as I am well past my warranty period. But prior was much more involved in sorting all the BS out.

So many speculate without doing proper accurate research. Then spew BS whatever over and over. And no was not referencing you. The other guy that was a member prior to 2019 talking pecking order BS and champ BS - Hahahaha!

 

[SargeDiesel]

Yeah I know exactly what you mean. Is sometimes impossible to find what you want in an instant. Sometimes an old member will chime in about a topic. Most times not. I am on here sporadically as I am well past my warranty period. But prior was much more involved in sorting all the BS out.

So many speculate without doing proper accurate research. Then spew BS whatever over and over. And no was not referencing you. The other guy that was a member prior to 2019 talking pecking order BS and champ BS - Hahahaha!

10-4...
I thought I stepped on somebody's toes...

 

[BRuby]

10-4...
I thought I stepped on somebody's toes...

No you are 100% good.

If you want to see my involvement sorting out a ton of BS - check out the hundred+ page or whatever corrosion thread. A few lame idiots posting in that thread for sure. Especially prior to the basic 3 year warranty expiry. Complete 100% speculation - that ended up being completely false. To this day FCA is still doing corrosion warranty work even after 5 years - like on mine. And I think Jerry's JL too.

Have no issues at all with noobs. Actually have helped out many over the years. Yep. True. That.

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