Papa Jawa

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After driving the Wrangler 4XE for a while, I've started to create a mental image of how I perceive the software prioritizes power use. There's a lot going on in the software. The amount of code must be amazing. This is nothing official and I have no access to the actual data. I have just been observing the power flow screen as I drive and have attempted to give it a graphic representation of what I see the vehicle doing.
One primary thing to understand is that the Wrangler 4XE is always a hybrid. I'll say it again: The Wrangler 4XE is always a hybrid. It is always working to maximize efficiency while maintaining power.

In hybrid mode when the battery is charged, the vehicle places a high priority on operating in all electric but will add the gas engine for added power when there is a demand. If the driver pushes the accelerator pedal just a little bit more than "normal" when leaving a stop sign, the gas engine will kick on to respond to driver input.

In Hybrid Mode when the battery is depleted to the "<1%" point the vehicle becomes more like a non-plug-in hybrid. It's primary source of propulsion is the gas engine but it uses the electric motors when possible. It maintains a state of charge around 15% that is hidden from view by the indicator on the dash. The vehicle will recapture energy when decelerating or going down hills via regeneration. Even with Max Regen turned off, the vehicle still regenerates when possible. It will also lightly charge via either the eTorque motor/generator or the Traction motor/generator in the hybrid transmission.
In Electric Mode, the vehicle places a high priority on operating on electric only but will turn on the gas engine when there is a power demand. Remember, it is always a hybrid. As such, Jeep has balanced efficiency and performance. While the gas engine will not kick on under the same kind of demand rate as when in Hybrid mode, the driver can still get the gas engine to kick on if they place a high enough demand on the system.

The e-Save mode is possibly the most misunderstood mode of the vehicle. Let me restate the phrase that the Wrangler 4XE is always a hybrid before I go on. In e-Save mode, the operator has a choice between Battery Save and Battery Charge. With battery save mode, we might believe that it places the Wrangler 4XE is "Gas Mode" and the battery just sits there. By observing the power flow screen in the Uconnect, we can see that this isn't the case. The battery is still made available for hybrid operation but it's application is lessened. Much like how the vehicle maintains the battery at 15% in the background when the SOC indicator hits <1%, the vehicle will maintain the battery at whatever the state of charge is when e-Save is selected. It will still use it but it will work to replenish to that state when and where possible. When in e-Save plus Battery Charge, the vehicle will again still use the battery for propulsion but it will work harder to charge the battery as well. Unlike Battery Save where it will only maintain a set state of charge, it will continue to charge the battery until it is full. From an overall efficiency perspective, this mode is the least efficient due to the added work load to the gas engine. When the 2 motor-generators are charging, they place an additional mechanical load on the gas engine on top of rolling the vehicle down the road.

I have so much respect for the decisions the vehicle has been programmed to make. What we have to understand is that there is a spectrum upon which a hybrid system can operate. At one end of that spectrum is performance and at the other end is efficiency. Jeep has attempted to maintain both performance and efficiency in the Wrangler 4XE and that is no small task with a vehicle that weighs 5,000 pounds, is trail rated and has the drag coefficient of a dump truck. But from what I can see, they have done it very well.

I would appreciate any feedback on this analysis. If my graphic is miscommunications something, please let me know so it can be made better. I wanted to create something to help others understand what the vehicle is doing in the various modes. It's a concept that I struggle to communicate since I really lack the true vocabulary and expertise to explain well.

Drive Modes.jpg
Chris, you rock!

I was on the 4xe train but jumped off for a bit. The problem is not the Wrangler or the 4xe. The problem is that it isn't a Gladiator! :rock: I cannot wait to have this in a Gladiator. Mojave would be my dream, but I really don't care what trim. Just give me a JTXE and I'll figure out the rest.

Tinfoil hat theory... the 2.0 etorque that powers the 4xe came out a couple years before the 4xe. The year the 4xe comes out the gas only 2.0 etorque option disappears. Here comes my theory... Dun dun dunnnn... The 3.6 etorque option in the wranglers are a test to see if the 3.6 produces enough electricity to support the 4xe architecture, and what changes would need to occur for the JTXE.

Why in the JL and not the JT? Numbers. Everytime we take our new vehicles in for one of the JeepWave services they are collecting the performance data. I don't think there are enough JT's on the road to gather the data they need, or they did not want to invest a new powertrain, 3.6 with "etorque" in the JT.

I think by 2023/2024 there will be a 3.6 4xe JT, or a new 6 to power the 4xe JT. My money is on the old workhorse Pentastar! Of course a new Slant 6 would slay me!
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Chris Hall

Chris Hall

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Smart Electric Drive, Wrangler 4XE coming soon.
Chris, you rock!

I was on the 4xe train but jumped off for a bit. The problem is not the Wrangler or the 4xe. The problem is that it isn't a Gladiator! :rock: I cannot wait to have this in a Gladiator. Mojave would be my dream, but I really don't care what trim. Just give me a JTXE and I'll figure out the rest.

Tinfoil hat theory... the 2.0 etorque that powers the 4xe came out a couple years before the 4xe. The year the 4xe comes out the gas only 2.0 etorque option disappears. Here comes my theory... Dun dun dunnnn... The 3.6 etorque option in the wranglers are a test to see if the 3.6 produces enough electricity to support the 4xe architecture, and what changes would need to occur for the JTXE.

Why in the JL and not the JT? Numbers. Everytime we take our new vehicles in for one of the JeepWave services they are collecting the performance data. I don't think there are enough JT's on the road to gather the data they need, or they did not want to invest a new powertrain, 3.6 with "etorque" in the JT.

I think by 2023/2024 there will be a 3.6 4xe JT, or a new 6 to power the 4xe JT. My money is on the old workhorse Pentastar! Of course a new Slant 6 would slay me!
Good theory. Wow!
 

Papa Jawa

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Good theory. Wow!
I was active here in the 4xe threads a while back, always enjoyed your discussion of the 4xe. I dropped out after buying my Mojave. Which is keeping me smiling until... Well you know, JTXE.
 

xjgary

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After driving the Wrangler 4XE for a while, I've started to create a mental image of how I perceive the software prioritizes power use. There's a lot going on in the software. The amount of code must be amazing. This is nothing official and I have no access to the actual data. I have just been observing the power flow screen as I drive and have attempted to give it a graphic representation of what I see the vehicle doing.
One primary thing to understand is that the Wrangler 4XE is always a hybrid. I'll say it again: The Wrangler 4XE is always a hybrid. It is always working to maximize efficiency while maintaining power.

In hybrid mode when the battery is charged, the vehicle places a high priority on operating in all electric but will add the gas engine for added power when there is a demand. If the driver pushes the accelerator pedal just a little bit more than "normal" when leaving a stop sign, the gas engine will kick on to respond to driver input.

In Hybrid Mode when the battery is depleted to the "<1%" point the vehicle becomes more like a non-plug-in hybrid. It's primary source of propulsion is the gas engine but it uses the electric motors when possible. It maintains a state of charge around 15% that is hidden from view by the indicator on the dash. The vehicle will recapture energy when decelerating or going down hills via regeneration. Even with Max Regen turned off, the vehicle still regenerates when possible. It will also lightly charge via either the eTorque motor/generator or the Traction motor/generator in the hybrid transmission.
In Electric Mode, the vehicle places a high priority on operating on electric only but will turn on the gas engine when there is a power demand. Remember, it is always a hybrid. As such, Jeep has balanced efficiency and performance. While the gas engine will not kick on under the same kind of demand rate as when in Hybrid mode, the driver can still get the gas engine to kick on if they place a high enough demand on the system.

The e-Save mode is possibly the most misunderstood mode of the vehicle. Let me restate the phrase that the Wrangler 4XE is always a hybrid before I go on. In e-Save mode, the operator has a choice between Battery Save and Battery Charge. With battery save mode, we might believe that it places the Wrangler 4XE is "Gas Mode" and the battery just sits there. By observing the power flow screen in the Uconnect, we can see that this isn't the case. The battery is still made available for hybrid operation but it's application is lessened. Much like how the vehicle maintains the battery at 15% in the background when the SOC indicator hits <1%, the vehicle will maintain the battery at whatever the state of charge is when e-Save is selected. It will still use it but it will work to replenish to that state when and where possible. When in e-Save plus Battery Charge, the vehicle will again still use the battery for propulsion but it will work harder to charge the battery as well. Unlike Battery Save where it will only maintain a set state of charge, it will continue to charge the battery until it is full. From an overall efficiency perspective, this mode is the least efficient due to the added work load to the gas engine. When the 2 motor-generators are charging, they place an additional mechanical load on the gas engine on top of rolling the vehicle down the road.

I have so much respect for the decisions the vehicle has been programmed to make. What we have to understand is that there is a spectrum upon which a hybrid system can operate. At one end of that spectrum is performance and at the other end is efficiency. Jeep has attempted to maintain both performance and efficiency in the Wrangler 4XE and that is no small task with a vehicle that weighs 5,000 pounds, is trail rated and has the drag coefficient of a dump truck. But from what I can see, they have done it very well.

I would appreciate any feedback on this analysis. If my graphic is miscommunications something, please let me know so it can be made better. I wanted to create something to help others understand what the vehicle is doing in the various modes. It's a concept that I struggle to communicate since I really lack the true vocabulary and expertise to explain well.

Drive Modes.jpg
After driving the Wrangler 4XE for a while, I've started to create a mental image of how I perceive the software prioritizes power use. There's a lot going on in the software. The amount of code must be amazing. This is nothing official and I have no access to the actual data. I have just been observing the power flow screen as I drive and have attempted to give it a graphic representation of what I see the vehicle doing.
One primary thing to understand is that the Wrangler 4XE is always a hybrid. I'll say it again: The Wrangler 4XE is always a hybrid. It is always working to maximize efficiency while maintaining power.

In hybrid mode when the battery is charged, the vehicle places a high priority on operating in all electric but will add the gas engine for added power when there is a demand. If the driver pushes the accelerator pedal just a little bit more than "normal" when leaving a stop sign, the gas engine will kick on to respond to driver input.

In Hybrid Mode when the battery is depleted to the "<1%" point the vehicle becomes more like a non-plug-in hybrid. It's primary source of propulsion is the gas engine but it uses the electric motors when possible. It maintains a state of charge around 15% that is hidden from view by the indicator on the dash. The vehicle will recapture energy when decelerating or going down hills via regeneration. Even with Max Regen turned off, the vehicle still regenerates when possible. It will also lightly charge via either the eTorque motor/generator or the Traction motor/generator in the hybrid transmission.
In Electric Mode, the vehicle places a high priority on operating on electric only but will turn on the gas engine when there is a power demand. Remember, it is always a hybrid. As such, Jeep has balanced efficiency and performance. While the gas engine will not kick on under the same kind of demand rate as when in Hybrid mode, the driver can still get the gas engine to kick on if they place a high enough demand on the system.

The e-Save mode is possibly the most misunderstood mode of the vehicle. Let me restate the phrase that the Wrangler 4XE is always a hybrid before I go on. In e-Save mode, the operator has a choice between Battery Save and Battery Charge. With battery save mode, we might believe that it places the Wrangler 4XE is "Gas Mode" and the battery just sits there. By observing the power flow screen in the Uconnect, we can see that this isn't the case. The battery is still made available for hybrid operation but it's application is lessened. Much like how the vehicle maintains the battery at 15% in the background when the SOC indicator hits <1%, the vehicle will maintain the battery at whatever the state of charge is when e-Save is selected. It will still use it but it will work to replenish to that state when and where possible. When in e-Save plus Battery Charge, the vehicle will again still use the battery for propulsion but it will work harder to charge the battery as well. Unlike Battery Save where it will only maintain a set state of charge, it will continue to charge the battery until it is full. From an overall efficiency perspective, this mode is the least efficient due to the added work load to the gas engine. When the 2 motor-generators are charging, they place an additional mechanical load on the gas engine on top of rolling the vehicle down the road.

I have so much respect for the decisions the vehicle has been programmed to make. What we have to understand is that there is a spectrum upon which a hybrid system can operate. At one end of that spectrum is performance and at the other end is efficiency. Jeep has attempted to maintain both performance and efficiency in the Wrangler 4XE and that is no small task with a vehicle that weighs 5,000 pounds, is trail rated and has the drag coefficient of a dump truck. But from what I can see, they have done it very well.

I would appreciate any feedback on this analysis. If my graphic is miscommunications something, please let me know so it can be made better. I wanted to create something to help others understand what the vehicle is doing in the various modes. It's a concept that I struggle to communicate since I really lack the true vocabulary and expertise to explain well.

Drive Modes.jpg
 

phobos512

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Chris, you rock!

I was on the 4xe train but jumped off for a bit. The problem is not the Wrangler or the 4xe. The problem is that it isn't a Gladiator! :rock: I cannot wait to have this in a Gladiator. Mojave would be my dream, but I really don't care what trim. Just give me a JTXE and I'll figure out the rest.

Tinfoil hat theory... the 2.0 etorque that powers the 4xe came out a couple years before the 4xe. The year the 4xe comes out the gas only 2.0 etorque option disappears. Here comes my theory... Dun dun dunnnn... The 3.6 etorque option in the wranglers are a test to see if the 3.6 produces enough electricity to support the 4xe architecture, and what changes would need to occur for the JTXE.

Why in the JL and not the JT? Numbers. Everytime we take our new vehicles in for one of the JeepWave services they are collecting the performance data. I don't think there are enough JT's on the road to gather the data they need, or they did not want to invest a new powertrain, 3.6 with "etorque" in the JT.

I think by 2023/2024 there will be a 3.6 4xe JT, or a new 6 to power the 4xe JT. My money is on the old workhorse Pentastar! Of course a new Slant 6 would slay me!
I mean...the Pacifica Hybrid already uses the Pentastar. The setup isn't as sophisticated as what's now in the 4xe Wrangler. I wouldn't expect the powertraing configuration of the 4xe Gladiator to be any different than that of the Wrangler except in how they locate the batteries (there'll need to be more batteries to maintain the range and they can't do the same moves with the seats so expect some to be under the vehicle). Economies of scale - they won't offer a different powerplant. And before you say that the 3.6 makes more power, no, it doesn't. And that's what a truck needs, even a Jeep truck. They'll really have to work on the payload rating though.

What they REALLY should do is hybridize the diesel.
 

xjgary

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First Name
Gary
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Messages
75
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Location
Carpinteria, Ca. USA
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1993 Cherokee XJ
After driving the Wrangler 4XE for a while, I've started to create a mental image of how I perceive the software prioritizes power use. There's a lot going on in the software. The amount of code must be amazing. This is nothing official and I have no access to the actual data. I have just been observing the power flow screen as I drive and have attempted to give it a graphic representation of what I see the vehicle doing.
One primary thing to understand is that the Wrangler 4XE is always a hybrid. I'll say it again: The Wrangler 4XE is always a hybrid. It is always working to maximize efficiency while maintaining power.

In hybrid mode when the battery is charged, the vehicle places a high priority on operating in all electric but will add the gas engine for added power when there is a demand. If the driver pushes the accelerator pedal just a little bit more than "normal" when leaving a stop sign, the gas engine will kick on to respond to driver input.

In Hybrid Mode when the battery is depleted to the "<1%" point the vehicle becomes more like a non-plug-in hybrid. It's primary source of propulsion is the gas engine but it uses the electric motors when possible. It maintains a state of charge around 15% that is hidden from view by the indicator on the dash. The vehicle will recapture energy when decelerating or going down hills via regeneration. Even with Max Regen turned off, the vehicle still regenerates when possible. It will also lightly charge via either the eTorque motor/generator or the Traction motor/generator in the hybrid transmission.
In Electric Mode, the vehicle places a high priority on operating on electric only but will turn on the gas engine when there is a power demand. Remember, it is always a hybrid. As such, Jeep has balanced efficiency and performance. While the gas engine will not kick on under the same kind of demand rate as when in Hybrid mode, the driver can still get the gas engine to kick on if they place a high enough demand on the system.

The e-Save mode is possibly the most misunderstood mode of the vehicle. Let me restate the phrase that the Wrangler 4XE is always a hybrid before I go on. In e-Save mode, the operator has a choice between Battery Save and Battery Charge. With battery save mode, we might believe that it places the Wrangler 4XE is "Gas Mode" and the battery just sits there. By observing the power flow screen in the Uconnect, we can see that this isn't the case. The battery is still made available for hybrid operation but it's application is lessened. Much like how the vehicle maintains the battery at 15% in the background when the SOC indicator hits <1%, the vehicle will maintain the battery at whatever the state of charge is when e-Save is selected. It will still use it but it will work to replenish to that state when and where possible. When in e-Save plus Battery Charge, the vehicle will again still use the battery for propulsion but it will work harder to charge the battery as well. Unlike Battery Save where it will only maintain a set state of charge, it will continue to charge the battery until it is full. From an overall efficiency perspective, this mode is the least efficient due to the added work load to the gas engine. When the 2 motor-generators are charging, they place an additional mechanical load on the gas engine on top of rolling the vehicle down the road.

I have so much respect for the decisions the vehicle has been programmed to make. What we have to understand is that there is a spectrum upon which a hybrid system can operate. At one end of that spectrum is performance and at the other end is efficiency. Jeep has attempted to maintain both performance and efficiency in the Wrangler 4XE and that is no small task with a vehicle that weighs 5,000 pounds, is trail rated and has the drag coefficient of a dump truck. But from what I can see, they have done it very well.

I would appreciate any feedback on this analysis. If my graphic is miscommunications something, please let me know so it can be made better. I wanted to create something to help others understand what the vehicle is doing in the various modes. It's a concept that I struggle to communicate since I really lack the true vocabulary and expertise to explain well.

Drive Modes.jpg
Chris: Since it is always in Hybrid mode if you drove a long trip, say 500 miles on pavement and started out with a fully charged battery, but had no way to recharge it after departure, would it get better MPG than a similar but non-hybrid Wrangler with the 2.0 L engine and auto transmission? Or since it weighs so much more would it get worse mileage than the non-hybrid?
 
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Chris Hall

Chris Hall

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Chris: Since it is always in Hybrid mode if you drove a long trip, say 500 miles on pavement and started out with a fully charged battery, but had no way to recharge it after departure, would it get better MPG than a similar but non-hybrid Wrangler with the 2.0 L engine and auto transmission? Or since it weighs so much more would it get worse mileage than the non-hybrid?
That’s a really good question. I’ve only done a couple 120+ mile trips to test and was seeing around 24MPG. I need to take some really long drives to test more.
 

Jeep#6

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I will go 20+ miles electric and ~2.5hrs regen and then 20+ electric up some mtn roads next Wknd. 180 miles total. It will be a good test.
 

Jerpy

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In hybrid mode when the battery is charged, the vehicle places a high priority on operating in all electric but will add the gas engine for added power when there is a demand. If the driver pushes the accelerator pedal just a little bit more than "normal" when leaving a stop sign, the gas engine will kick on to respond to driver input.
This appears to be consistent with how other hybrids operate. I can say from experience that the gas/ICE on my Prius would tend to kick in around the 30-40mph mark.
 

Papa Jawa

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I mean...the Pacifica Hybrid already uses the Pentastar. The setup isn't as sophisticated as what's now in the 4xe Wrangler. I wouldn't expect the powertraing configuration of the 4xe Gladiator to be any different than that of the Wrangler except in how they locate the batteries (there'll need to be more batteries to maintain the range and they can't do the same moves with the seats so expect some to be under the vehicle). Economies of scale - they won't offer a different powerplant. And before you say that the 3.6 makes more power, no, it doesn't. And that's what a truck needs, even a Jeep truck. They'll really have to work on the payload rating though.

What they REALLY should do is hybridize the diesel.
I know the 3.6 will work in a hybrid. But is the etorque setup enough to generate an appropriate output to support a 3.6 4xe Gladiator, at the level of performance expected of the truck. Will the EV portion provide enough power and economic advantage to make it viable? On, and they could totally do the same under seat thing.

I have no idea what you meant when you said “And before you say that the 3.6 makes more power, no, it doesn't”. More power than what? Seriously no idea what you are talking about.

Payload and towing. Nobody should ever buy a JT for towing. That is not their strength. I’m just glad I can squeak 5k. You need to tow? Buy a Ram.

I can’t even imagine putting the diesel on the hybrid. I’m just guessing the diesel would cancel out the hybrid rebates.

Bottom line. I love the 4xe. Jeep said they will not put the 2.0 in the JT. Diesel hybrid, nope. That leaves the 3.6 or something else. I trust Jeep to sell me a JTXE that is a beast in a few years.
 

hybrid3.0

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Chris, great write-up. To add to your drive modes, if you move the gear selector into "manual shift" sport mode (sift gear selector to the left when in "D"), the engine will stay on even when stopped so manual mode appears to override the bias to just run off the electric motors. I ordered my 4xe in January and took delivery in April like everyone else so who knows how long gas was sitting in the tank. I am looking for a way to burn through my original tank of fuel which would be a winter blend in the mid-west so I can refill with premium for the added detergents combined with Stabil to keep the gas fresh. A combination of my short commutes plus the 4xe bias to run electric regardless of the drive mode is making this difficult, but switching on "e-save" and using manual mode for low speed operation seems to keep the engine running. Since the 4xe is biased to run electric motors by design, in cold weather I am wondering if the constant cold starting of the engine will increase engine wear. Granted the engine is used so little that even with accelerated wear it will likely outlast the rest of the vehicle.

Does anyone know if the electric motor system will heat up engine coolant and run heated coolant through a cold engine to prevent this perpetual cold start condition? I was also thinking synthetic engine oil would help as well.

Also for those of you waiting on a 3.6 hybrid, I doubt you will see this since fuel savings is the name of the game and a small turbo or associated inline 6 based on the 2.0 engine design will likely be the only options. Besides, you have tons of torque with the electric motors so you just need horse power and a generator for the batteries, so low displacement is in order. In fact, I would not be surprised to see smaller displacement and lower power motors utilized although this route may be short circuited by just jumping to full electric. Just my $0.02.
 
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Chris Hall

Chris Hall

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Chris, great write-up. To add to your drive modes, if you move the gear selector into "manual shift" sport mode (sift gear selector to the left when in "D"), the engine will stay on even when stopped so manual mode appears to override the bias to just run off the electric motors. I ordered my 4xe in January and took delivery in April like everyone else so who knows how long gas was sitting in the tank. I am looking for a way to burn through my original tank of fuel which would be a winter blend in the mid-west so I can refill with premium for the added detergents combined with Stabil to keep the gas fresh. A combination of my short commutes plus the 4xe bias to run electric regardless of the drive mode is making this difficult, but switching on "e-save" and using manual mode for low speed operation seems to keep the engine running. Since the 4xe is biased to run electric motors by design, in cold weather I am wondering if the constant cold starting of the engine will increase engine wear. Granted the engine is used so little that even with accelerated wear it will likely outlast the rest of the vehicle.

Does anyone know if the electric motor system will heat up engine coolant and run heated coolant through a cold engine to prevent this perpetual cold start condition? I was also thinking synthetic engine oil would help as well.

Also for those of you waiting on a 3.6 hybrid, I doubt you will see this since fuel savings is the name of the game and a small turbo or associated inline 6 based on the 2.0 engine design will likely be the only options. Besides, you have tons of torque with the electric motors so you just need horse power and a generator for the batteries, so low displacement is in order. In fact, I would not be surprised to see smaller displacement and lower power motors utilized although this route may be short circuited by just jumping to full electric. Just my $0.02.
I forced myself to run it to get those 300 miles in. It was painful.
 

phobos512

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On, and they could totally do the same under seat thing.
They wouldn't be putting the 2.0 in the JT, they'd be putting it in the JT 4xe. The 4xes are separately marketed so it'd still be accurate. The 2.0T makes more torque, at lower RPM, than the 3.6 NA, which makes it more suitable for a truck. The big three have all gone to offering smaller engines in their trucks. They have to for CAFE. Stellantis is no different.

Now, on your comment above that they can do the same underseat thing. Have you seen the measurements that folks have taken and posted in this thread? https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/4xe-rear-seat-legroom.69978/page-2

Tell me, where exactly do you think the fiveish inches that have been lost behind the seat for the battery are going to come from in a JT where the end of the cab is sort of in the way? Jeep didn't do that without a really good reason because it's a fairly large space compromise.
 
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