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Would it make sense to add lockers/LSD to both axles of a JL Sport?

ThirtyOne

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LSD are worse on icy roads, snow or any other surface that has low traction.

Now there are different types of LSD (limited slip differentials) but this is the JLWF, so we'll concentrate on the factory Jeep style LSD. It uses clutch plates and springs to keep both tires spinning with equal load to the left and right tires as long as the surface friction from both tires is equal. As soon as any change in surface friction happens, the tire with the least amount of traction will receive more power from the LSD. So as you go around a corner in the ice/snow/mud/rain, that surface friction on the tires is uneven, especially as the tires are turning at different speeds. That LSD will be loading/unloading the tires unevenly causing a loss of handling. The old saying of "catching posi" around a corner and spinning out applies here.

The easiest way to explain this would be to park an LSD equipped vehicle on the side of the road, with one tire on dry pavement and the other tire on a patch of ice (or mud). As you start to drive, the LSD will send the majority of power to the tire with the least amount of traction (the one on the ice) while the tire on the dry pavement will receive very little to no power. In short you could get stuck on flat level ground quite easily. Don't even think about getting a tire in the air, with no surface load back to the LSD, it will send all power to the tire in the air.

Now there are ways to cheat a little, the easiest is to click the park brake a few notches to get the brakes to preload the axles a little so the LSD thinks the tires have the same surface friction feedback.

Are LSDs bad? Not at all. They are great for those that need/want a little extra traction here and there. Do they perform better than a true locker, In the off-road world, on uneven and loose terrain? NO.
Right - LSD better on-road (where lockers do nothing), Lockers better off-road (where LSD can be useful, but much more limited).

If we go out on a trail here most guys only use their lockers a few times. But they really come in handy those few times. I can get up most of what they get up, but I have to do it the hard way with more skinny pedal and less control. And some things I can't do at all, but that is partially because I don't have a lift. So poor me.
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BlackGenesis

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I've never encountered the sway bar disconnects. Once they're installed, how much wrenching/crawling underneath is involved in disconnecting/reconnecting? Any particular brands that are superior? Thanks.
Sway bar Quick disconnect links range $80 -$200

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Here's how I see it. Your money so you do what you want in the end. I bought a sport when I was in college after going to Moab the summer before. Remember if you're financing it and can get a good enough rate that is doable for getting a Rubi even if its an older one, then I say do that instead of financing a sport, and then getting axles which you can sometimes finance through some companies, just keep it all under one longer loan.

I regret not getting a rubicon but let me tell you the capabilities of my sport STOCK (with a winch as the only mod but only used once in the trails listed next) was ridiculous (steel bender, Kane creek, TOW, Engineer pass, Imogene, McAllister gulch, and more...).

I am a huge believer in learning to wheel properly (aka not hammering on the throttle and learning good lines). A good driver can do a decent amount of trails. All come down to what people think is "difficult". Like some view TOW as difficult but it was fine for me and I felt confident in my vehicle and had things necessary for if I was to break something/had people that could help go get a part for me if I needed it or help drag me out.

The nice thing with jeeps is they're legos. You can constantly change them. Obviously not cheap but it's doable. I know back in college I told myself I was "only going to do 33s w/ yada yada lift" but here I am after doing trails and wanting to be out there with the big dogs.

Someone mentioned getting a sport to skip 44s and slap 60s on. Sure if you had money hahah but even if you did get a Rubi and wanted 60s, those Rubi axles you can sell FAST at the moment with the demand I've been seeing for them so selling the 44s will help put some sort of dent into 60s.

I'd say go with what you can financially tackle and see where it takes you after a trip to moab or colorado and then if your goals change then just plan for it by saving and selling the OEM parts to help the cost. And if you are in W.Tx then I can recommend a few trails in some spots to test out your future jeep.

-Julia
 
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west tex

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I have some experience on Moab trails, but it was 32 years ago. I was driving my '86 Toyota 4WD pickup, with a puny 116hp 4 cyl, 5 spd manual, open differentials, bone stock except for 31x10.50 tires. I tackled a number of trails w/o breaking a sweat, including one that had all kinds of warning signs and a dry stairstep waterfall. The only named trail I recall was the White Rim trail, because it's 100 miles long and required 2 days to get through. That old Toyota was tough as nails, had real good ground clearance and took me through lots of difficult spots over the years.

I want to make another Moab trip and figure a JL Sport with LSD in the rear along with the BLD system should be able to take me where I intend to go.

I want to thank everyone who posted here, as I learned quite a bit about Wrangler capabilities. The BLD was a revelation.
 

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So, is the following thinking flawed? When potential Jeep buyers wonder about needing lockers, should they be taking a more wholistic view? Something along these lines ...

Often, when you get into off-roading where you will need lockers, you will likely also need larger tires, spotters, traveling in groups and perhaps some appetite for body damage. In other words, the chances that you don't need any of the above, and only lockers, is perhaps quite rare, or perhaps even nonexistent.

So if you go off-road and if you do have some combination of the above, then at that time, not having lockers becomes far far less of a handicap. At that time, adding into the equation a winch perhaps has even more value.

And if you don't have some combination of the above, you are not going to be getting into situations counting exclusively on your lockers. So by deduction lockers become moot.

Thoughts?
Just to be clear. I have never understood someone who takes a new 50,000 vehicle and repeatedly inflicts body damage on it. However, I know there are people who really enjoy that kind of stuff.
 

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So, is the following thinking flawed? When potential Jeep buyers wonder about needing lockers, should they be taking a more wholistic view? Something along these lines ...

Often, when you get into off-roading where you will need lockers, you will likely also need larger tires, spotters, traveling in groups and perhaps some appetite for body damage. In other words, the chances that you don't need any of the above, and only lockers, is perhaps quite rare, or perhaps even nonexistent.

So if you go off-road and if you do have some combination of the above, then at that time, not having lockers becomes far far less of a handicap. At that time, adding into the equation a winch perhaps has even more value.

And if you don't have some combination of the above, you are not going to be getting into situations counting exclusively on your lockers. So by deduction lockers become moot.

Thoughts?
Some good thoughts there. It really depends on what you are planning on doing.

Just because you have lockers, doesn't mean you need big tires or spotters or large groups. I often go out by myself to enjoy the wild and often that takes me to miles of gravel roads that I may never even need to shift into 4wd. BUT sometimes you run into a wash out or slide across the road or other scenario that necessitates needing more suspension travel, better traction, driving skills, and possibly some self-recovery skills.

And that brings me to my next suggestion to all 4x4 owners of all types. Find some good off-road training. Not only driving, but self-recovery too. Even if you have years of off-road driving experience, there are things that a good trainer can teach you. I had over 20 years of wheeling experience when I first had a chance to spend a day on the trail with a trainer (Bill Burke - 4Wheeling America) and learned a bunch of things I had never seen before. Fast forward many years later and I had the pleasure of a couple different training events with instructors from the I4WDTA (Intl 4wd Trainers Assoc.). It still amazes me the amount of things I've learned.



Right - LSD better on-road (where lockers do nothing), Lockers better off-road (where LSD can be useful, but much more limited).

If we go out on a trail here most guys only use their lockers a few times. But they really come in handy those few times. I can get up most of what they get up, but I have to do it the hard way with more skinny pedal and less control. And some things I can't do at all, but that is partially because I don't have a lift. So poor me.

"LSD better on-road" on dry pavement in sporting applications.

An open differential will always be more preferable on road for daily driving duties.

Cons to an LSDs on-road:
Increased tire and axle component wear.
Increased operating costs.
Decreased differential life.
Possible unpredictable handling in rain, snow, ice.

Now please don't get me wrong, even though I am pointing out issues with an LSD, if I was to buy a new JL or JT Sport, I would get the LSD option, mainly because I would want the bigger D44 rear axle. But I would run that LSD and use the heck out of it right up to the time that I upgraded to manually-operated lockers.
 

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Please read my post. I explained that modding would be necessary.



Please read my post. I explained that modding would be necessary.

But why go through that much trouble? Why not just buy a Rubicon if you want to do hard core trails?

I can see the benefit of spreading out the expenditure over a few years instead of spending all the money all at once. However, I can't think of any other reason if you know you want to do hard core trails.

BTW, there is no need to get personal. We are just having a conversation and expressing different views.
I dont know what you define "hardcore". because a rubicon needs modification if you wanna do "hardcore" trails without body damage. You can take a bare bones sport on trails, harder than you might think. I did it with mine. All you have to do is disconnect the sway bar and go for it. It is very capable.
 

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I'm not looking to lift or go over 33" tires. Other than the lockers/LSD and maybe additional skid plates, it'll remain stock. Heck, my thinking is that a pure stock Wrangler Sport is pretty darn capable off road. I'm just looking to up its game somewhat. Having driven a lot of off road miles with open diffs, the thought of having power to all four wheels is very appealing.
“I’m not looking to lift” famous last words.
 
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“I’m not looking to lift” famous last words.
I'm an old guy who's had 4WD vehicles for 35 years. Never put a lift on any of 'em.

But I do understand the allure. My younger brother lifted his Chevy 4WD way back when, allowing him to go with larger tires. I'm interested in a quick disconnect for the sway bar and possibly a front axle locker like an ARB. Having a compressor mounted would be nice for airing up the tires after returning to the pavement.
 

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LSD are worse on icy roads, snow or any other surface that has low traction.

Now there are different types of LSD (limited slip differentials) but this is the JLWF, so we'll concentrate on the factory Jeep style LSD. It uses clutch plates and springs to keep both tires spinning with equal load to the left and right tires as long as the surface friction from both tires is equal. As soon as any change in surface friction happens, the tire with the least amount of traction will receive more power from the LSD. So as you go around a corner in the ice/snow/mud/rain, that surface friction on the tires is uneven, especially as the tires are turning at different speeds. That LSD will be loading/unloading the tires unevenly causing a loss of handling. The old saying of "catching posi" around a corner and spinning out applies here.

The easiest way to explain this would be to park an LSD equipped vehicle on the side of the road, with one tire on dry pavement and the other tire on a patch of ice (or mud). As you start to drive, the LSD will send the majority of power to the tire with the least amount of traction (the one on the ice) while the tire on the dry pavement will receive very little to no power. In short you could get stuck on flat level ground quite easily. Don't even think about getting a tire in the air, with no surface load back to the LSD, it will send all power to the tire in the air.

Now there are ways to cheat a little, the easiest is to click the park brake a few notches to get the brakes to preload the axles a little so the LSD thinks the tires have the same surface friction feedback.

Are LSDs bad? Not at all. They are great for those that need/want a little extra traction here and there. Do they perform better than a true locker, In the off-road world, on uneven and loose terrain? NO.
Well I guess my mechanics proff at school was wrong then. I was taught they were better. I think you forget there is a preloaded spring in the mechanism. In the case of an ice patch the torque will go to the tire with more traction, not to the tire on ice (as long as it has a bit of traction), that would be an open diff. Of course if traction is minimal such as a tire in the air the clutch packs are not enough to handle the situation. I think what you define as "catching posi" is what happens when too much acceleration is provided, which makes the driveshaft rotate too fast and can render the LSD dangerous. The combination of traction control and LSD is actually quite good. You can check the paper I posted below which explains how an LSD ia greatly beneficial on snow and ice.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAEegQIMBAF&usg=AOvVaw37ezFa7_j5ScscJWrNbRuO
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAEegQIMBAF&usg=AOvVaw37ezFa7_j5ScscJWrNbRuO
 

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Well I guess my mechanics proff at school was wrong then. I was taught they were better. I think you forget there is a preloaded spring in the mechanism. In the case of an ice patch the torque will go to the tire with more traction, not to the tire on ice (as long as it has a bit of traction), that would be an open diff. Of course if traction is minimal such as a tire in the air the clutch packs are not enough to handle the situation. I think what you define as "catching posi" is what happens when too much acceleration is provided, which makes the driveshaft rotate too fast and can render the LSD dangerous. The combination of traction control and LSD is actually quite good. You can check the paper I posted below which explains how an LSD ia greatly beneficial on snow and ice.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAEegQIMBAF&usg=AOvVaw37ezFa7_j5ScscJWrNbRuO
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAEegQIMBAF&usg=AOvVaw37ezFa7_j5ScscJWrNbRuO

The spring loaded clutch pack LSD will send the power to the tire that is spinning at a faster rate... basically the tire with the least amount of traction, not the most.

While I haven't written any white papers on differentials, I did spend 9 years as the Technical/warranty mgr & engineering liaison for ARB Air Locker for the Western Hemisphere.
Have taken apart, driven and tested just about every type of traction aiding differential used in 4x4 (and racing) applications.

Again please don't take what I am saying as a rap against LSDs, they have their place. But they are not better than a manually-operated locker in the off-road/4x4 world. LSDs are also not better than an open differential in on-road applications, unless you are doing spirited driving.

That said.... Will we see a day that a variable slip differential will out perform a traditional locker? Yes and not too far in the future too. Auto manufacturers are making huge strides in variable slip differentials and traction control. The newer Honda Pilot's are a fantastic example of how well a computer controlled, traction control system can work. I've seen the Honda drivetrain engineers take a stock Pilot through a trail that was challenging to other vehicles. It was damn impressive.
 

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This is the best option I have read on the forum. Wouldn't you have to use some after market auxillary switches to manage the lockers?
yes. If you have the aux switches, it makes it even simpler. However, Mopar has a simple two wire harness to activate them

brett
 

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But here's the issue (And this is coming from a guy with a Sport S).

The difference between a Sport S and a Rubicon is 5-6K. So you have just spent 4k to get axles, gears, and lockers. You still don't have the larger brakes, 4:1 transfer case, or sway bar disconnect (although I don't really value that very much).

So if you are going to go that route you might as well just start with the Rubicon. And if price is an issue, you can now get a used Rubicon for the same price.

If someone is starting out saying "I want a Sport with front/rear lockers" I think they should just start with the Rubicon.
Every take out rubicon axle set I’ve bought has come with brakes so that’s been a bonus. I have a full set of calipers and hoses sitting on the pallet rack waiting to be used.

I encourage everyone we talk to to just start with the rubicon. Only exception would be a purpose built rig that will immediately get tons, atlas t-case, anitrock swaybars etc. It pencils out to get a sport unless they want the additional creature comforts like the 8.4” screen and leather etc.

Realistically though folks buy a Jeep not being properly explained the differences between the trims and then want to do mods and start learning about the shortcomings about their particular choice. By then it’s to late to buy a rubicon from the start.

brett
 

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I'm seriously considering a JL which will be a daily driver that will also get some off-road and even off trail use in desert/mtn type areas, like Moab.

I was thinking of something like an ARB or Eaton E-lock in the rear and a Torq Lock in the front to give it (almost) Rubicon off road capability. Is that set up worth it or is the Rubi still a better option? Thanks!
I think a Tru Trac in both differentials would give you what you want. I was seriously considering this route with my YJ. That said, you can find a Rubicon in the same price range as some Sports if you shop around.
 

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yes. If you have the aux switches, it makes it even simpler. However, Mopar has a simple two wire harness to activate them

brett
Please point me to some documentation re: the two wire harness.

Realistically though folks buy a Jeep not being properly explained the differences between the trims and then want to do mods and start learning about the shortcomings about their particular choice. By then it’s to late to buy a rubicon from the start.

brett
I agree. Not everyone needs or wants a Rubicon. That much is clear.

However, I have seen too many posts from members who learn about the benefits of sway bar disconnects and lockers when they are unable to keep up with their friends who have them.

Then comes the unexpected and expensive process of upgrading their Jeep.
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