Who else besides me got eTorque and didn't know what they bought?

[Wbino]

Not applicable in this situation since we are talking about universal problems and not ones specific to a company or technology. Unless you are saying EVs could fail to catch on here at all, then I agree that's a possibility. Though i'm pretty confident that it will happen eventually...just not in our lifetime. But the biggest technical hurdles EVs face are not technological problems, they are physics problems that would require the re-write of things we currently consider physical laws.

IMHO The biggest obstacles EV's face are Big Oil and everyone in our world economy that lives off of it.
I just bought a V6 so I hope oil doesn't go anywhere soon but a vehicle that can zoom around town with better range than current tech and charged faster will not be seen with enthusiasm from some $ides.

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[TheRaven]

IMHO The biggest obstacles EV's face are Big Oil and everyone in our world economy that lives off of it.

I suppose that depends on how defeatable you view "big oil" to be. The way Iook at it is this - no matter how big, connected, and entrenched an industry and it's associated lobby may be, they are defeatable. Laws of physics however, are not defeatable...unless of course we find that we incorrectly labeled them "laws".

 

[Fargo]

IMHO The biggest obstacles EV's face are Big Oil and everyone in our world economy that lives off of it.

If the entire world was all EV. Big oil will still be around. Have you ever noticed how much plastic is in an EV? Guess whats used to make plastic. Yep oil. Ever notice that wheel bearings and moving joints always have this slippery stuff inside of them. Yeah, grease and oil. Ever notice how many chemicals farmers are spraying in their fields. Guess what, most of those chemicals are based on oil. Check that tag on your shirt and shoes. Yeah most of the materials we use to make clothing are made out of oil too. And guess what, if it turns out the demand for oil ever drops due to EV vehicles, oil can be burned to produce electricity.

I get your point, its in the best interest for oil companies to sell oil and gas directly to the consumer. But I'm not sure how much of a fight oil companies are putting up against EV cars. I don't recall ever hearing concerns from oil companies that they will be put out of business by EV cars. Our world is so reliant on oil that there will always be a need for big oil. And as long as our economy is based on capitalism, oil companies, just like any other company will adapt and adjust their business to meet consumer demands.

 

[michail]

I suppose that depends on how defeatable you view "big oil" to be. The way Iook at it is this - no matter how big, connected, and entrenched an industry and it's associated lobby may be, they are defeatable. Laws of physics however, are not defeatable...unless of course we find that we incorrectly labeled them "laws".

By laws of physics do you mean power generation and distribution? It's a big challenge for sure, I don't know that it would be impossible. Given today's technology and infrastructure, it is not possible. We can't even get semiconductors.

The Iter fusion project is very interesting. I'm not counting on it but if that succeeds it would be world changing.

 

[michail]

I get your point, its in the best interest for oil companies to sell oil and gas directly to the consumer. But I'm not sure how much of a fight oil companies are putting up against EV cars. I don't recall ever hearing concerns from oil companies that they will be put out of business by EV cars. Our world is so reliant on oil that there will always be a need for big oil. And as long as our economy is based on capitalism, oil companies, just like any other company will adapt and adjust their business to meet consumer demands.

The industry actually is doing that with heavy R&D investments.

 

[alpha1847]

No, no it doesn't. First you have a 12v battery, a 12v starter, and a 12v alternator. Then you also have a 48v battery and a 48v starter generator. Not only that but the 48v battery has its own cooling system including its own radiator, reservoir and electric water pump.

No, it does not have a 12v alternator. The 48v battery pack includes a 3kw DC-DC converter that powers all 12v needs. Yes, there is still a 12v battery to store power for 12v accessories. Yes, there is still a 12v starter that is only used for cold starts, but the 48v BSG handles all of the start/stop functions, unlike the ESS version.

The 48v battery is air cooled. The 48v BSG motor is liquid cooled, just as the engine is.

 

[AnnDee4444]

The 48v battery is air cooled.

Ok, I've been wondering this for a while since I can't find any articles stating the battery is water cooled.

So why are there coolant lines running to the 48V battery?

 

[Pig-Pen]

The wrangler of all vehicles, should not be made more complex. Last thing people who drive these things out in the middle of nowhere need. Toyota seems to have more sense than that.

 

[alpha1847]

Ok, I've been wondering this for a while since I can't find any articles stating the battery is water cooled.

So why are there coolant lines running to the 48V battery?

I do see how some have claimed there are cooling lines running into the battery pack. I have a 4xe, so cannot confirm. Is it possible the heavy gauge electric wires are being confused for cooling lines?

This is one of the sources I looked at regarding Wrangler: https://www.chryslerfactoryplans.com/tools/articles.aspx?article=Wrangler_Etorque_Technology&type=4

There are many articles confirming the same battery in the 3.6 Ram eTorque is air cooled, but that is mounted inside the cabin: https://moparinsiders.com/what-is-etorque-the-new-mild-hybrid-powertrains-in-the-ram-1500/

 

[TheRaven]

By laws of physics do you mean power generation and distribution? It's a big challenge for sure, I don't know that it would be impossible. Given today's technology and infrastructure, it is not possible. We can't even get semiconductors.

The Iter fusion project is very interesting. I'm not counting on it but if that succeeds it would be world changing.

It's not impossible to do. It's impossible to do in 20-30 years. Many automakers have stated that they will be "all electric" by 2030, 2035, 2040...etc. It ain't gonna happen. They won't be able to sell cars because people won't buy cars they can't "refuel" quickly whenever they want. We aren't going to have a massive nationwide network of level 2 chargers in 20 years...and level 2 chargers aren't going to cut it anyway. 4 hours is not an acceptable "refuel" time. That needs to be 10 minutes or less if we expect widespread adoption of EVs. This is where the problem comes in because our grid will not support 500kw chargers at every gas station in town. That's a physics problem that's not going to be overcome by technology...only by beefing up our electrical grid, and that's a decades-long endeavor that hasn't even started yet.

Second problem - charging at home - the standard 200A electrical service that powers your average US home can support fast charging one EV in about 2-3 hours, and that's if you turn off everything else in the house - no AC or heat, no appliance use, etc. So to support charging the average two-car family we are going to have to upgrade EVERY SINGLE HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL SERVICE IN THE COUNTRY. I don't have to elaborate on the size of that project.

There are many major hurdles preventing the widespread adoption of EVs. These are not problems that can be overcome by technology. They are physical limitations. We have "workarounds" but these will take decades to implement. So the claims of EVs taking over by 2050 are just dreams. If we pour massive amounts of capital into these projects NOW, we could have several major cities ready by 2050...but nationally, it's not happening in my or your lifetime.

 

[Fargo]

Ok, I've been wondering this for a while since I can't find any articles stating the battery is water cooled.

So why are there coolant lines running to the 48V battery?

The 48v battery is air cooled. The 48v BSG motor is liquid cooled, just as the engine is.

OK, this needs more research now. I could have sworn I watched a video at one time that showed the water lines running back to the battery and claiming it was water cooled.

 

[Rogue Toad]

It's not impossible to do. It's impossible to do in 20-30 years. Many automakers have stated that they will be "all electric" by 2030, 2035, 2040...etc. It ain't gonna happen. They won't be able to sell cars because people won't buy cars they can't "refuel" quickly whenever they want. We aren't going to have a massive nationwide network of level 2 chargers in 20 years...and level 2 chargers aren't going to cut it anyway. 4 hours is not an acceptable "refuel" time. That needs to be 10 minutes or less if we expect widespread adoption of EVs. This is where the problem comes in because our grid will not support 500kw chargers at every gas station in town. That's a physics problem that's not going to be overcome by technology...only by beefing up our electrical grid, and that's a decades-long endeavor that hasn't even started yet.

Second problem - charging at home - the standard 200A electrical service that powers your average US home can support fast charging one EV in about 2-3 hours, and that's if you turn off everything else in the house - no AC or heat, no appliance use, etc. So to support charging the average two-car family we are going to have to upgrade EVERY SINGLE HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL SERVICE IN THE COUNTRY. I don't have to elaborate on the size of that project.

There are many major hurdles preventing the widespread adoption of EVs. These are not problems that can be overcome by technology. They are physical limitations. We have "workarounds" but these will take decades to implement. So the claims of EVs taking over by 2050 are just dreams. If we pour massive amounts of capital into these projects NOW, we could have several major cities ready by 2050...but nationally, it's not happening in my or your lifetime.

I worked in the auto industry for a long time, and I agree with everything above. There are currently many technical challenges to overcome before EV's can replace ICE's. It will likely happen eventually, or another technology will come along to supplant them both.

The only reason automakers are jumping on board the EV train so fast (or professing to do so), is that EV's are significantly cheaper to build (not that they will charge less for them.). The costs to tool engine plants & all the engine component vendors for even a single engine runs into the hundreds of millions. Design and development time are longer, builds are more complex, there are more things to warranty and repairs cost more, etc. The automakers would love to just build EV's and charge the same price, so they will push for it, hoping that the government implements a WWII level effort to upgrade the infrastructure and toss money at them and others for solutions.

The EV market will grow, and service all those with short commutes who aren't worried about road trips, and who can afford the chargers, etc. But then it will slow significantly, because there are many who want to be able to drive for more than one "tank" and only have to stop for 10 mins or less to "refuel". When EV's can stand on their own merits against ICE's, there won't need to be tax incentives to do so or laws trying to ban ICE's.

 

[Rogue Toad]

I'd further point out that even if the electrical grid could support every gas station in the nation replacing fuel pumps with fast chargers, the stations would have to have more chargers, and thus more square footage to put them on. If it took twice as long to fill your battery as it does to fill your tank, then you'd need twice as many chargers vs. pumps and twice as much square footage dedicated to it. If it took 5 times longer, you'd need 5 times more, etc. Currently it's orders of magnitude longer. You see the problem.

Now, how are all these gas stations going to suddenly get more land? Or are we going to suddenly have 10x more gas stations? Yes, you can add chargers in places like restaurants, shopping centers, work places, but that still doesn't solve the problem of being able to refuel "on the go" on your way to Moab or grandma's house without waiting 2 hours to do so.

One short term solution I've heard is standardizing battery packs. You drive into a station, your low battery is swapped for a full one and off you go. But that still takes a lot of development and logistics to even figure out how to do. Not to mention once battery tech changes the standard battery size or charging might change and now you have to tear all that up.

 

[Fargo]

I did a quick search. Here is a video from the 2018 with the 4cyl eTorque. At about 1 min he mentions the cooling lines and shows some good close ups. They sure look like cooling lines to me.

 

[Fargo]

...

One short term solution I've heard is standardizing battery packs. You drive into a station, your low battery is swapped for a full one and off you go. But that still takes a lot of development and logistics to even figure out how to do. Not to mention once battery tech changes the standard battery size or charging might change and now you have to tear all that up.

I had that idea as well about changing out the battery. The problem is, if I just purchased a brand new Jeep and the first time I swap out my battery I get some 10 year old piece of junk that doesn't hold a charge or fails. You can bet that Jeep isn't going to warranty some battery you picked up at a charging station. Do you think the gas/charging station is going to buy you a new $1500 battery? At best you can hope they will swap you out with another used battery. Unless your on vacation and the station you got the battery from is 200 miles down the road. Then you might be on your own.

No thanks. I'll stick with ICE.

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