US tax credits and the pending bill [Warning: NO POLITICS]

[mllcb42]

Yes you’re right!

This is why you don’t read your phone in the middle of the night! The BBB bill just passed a procedural vote. Many hurdles still there.

And as you said elsewhere mache made in Mexico so no Union credit.

It doesn't help that they were saying for a while that they weren't going to vote on them separately and then flipped that around last to at least get the infrastructure bill through.

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[TheRaven]

Any what is the alternative? Every year that goes by weather predictions have become more accurate.

No they haven't - they just keep changing the metrics to make it seem that way. As tech has continued to improve, we've actually gotten slightly worse in universal terms. As of 2020 we were at an average of 43%. Yup, you have a statistically better chance at an accurate forecast by flipping a coin.

The problem is that we continue to lean more and more on weather models (which are subsets of climate models) and less and less on experienced meteorologists. Our climate models are terrible and thus so are our weather models. In the past, it was veteran meteorologists who bridged the gap and were at least able to tell us reliably what the weather will be tomorrow. That was back in the days where a 5-day forecast was considered "extended". We could map the next day or two pretty accurately, and 3 more days beyond that with a general idea. Now we map two weeks out with abysmal accuracy from day 1 through day 14...because the vast majority of weather forecasts are automated...data is just plugged in from the model runs.

I understand the dilemma surrounding what to do about it...do we just give up? No. But we also don't base civilization-altering decisions on such poor data.

 

[john adams]

No they haven't - they just keep changing the metrics to make it seem that way. As tech has continued to improve, we've actually gotten slightly worse in universal terms. As of 2020 we were at an average of 43%. Yup, you have a statistically better chance at an accurate forecast by flipping a coin.

The problem is that we continue to lean more and more on weather models (which are subsets of climate models) and less and less on experienced meteorologists. Our climate models are terrible and thus so are our weather models. In the past, it was veteran meteorologists who bridged the gap and were at least able to tell us reliably what the weather will be tomorrow. That was back in the days where a 5-day forecast was considered "extended". We could map the next day or two pretty accurately, and 3 more days beyond that with a general idea. Now we map two weeks out with abysmal accuracy from day 1 through day 14...because the vast majority of weather forecasts are automated...data is just plugged in from the model runs.

I understand the dilemma surrounding what to do about it...do we just give up? No. But we also don't base civilization-altering decisions on such poor data.

You are not statistically better off with a coin flip. And weather models are much more accurate today. Humans don’t beat machines that often, John Henry stories to the contrary.

Try flipping a coin for snow vs not in Texas in July. Tell me how often that coin flip beats the forecast.

 

[TheRaven]

You are not statistically better off with a coin flip. And weather models are much more accurate today. Humans don’t beat machines that often, John Henry stories to the contrary.

According to the numbers, a coin flip is more accurate. That's a fact. Yes, weather models are much MORE accurate today than they were, but they're still far from what would be considered accurate. The bottom line is that forecast accuracy was better when we had veteran meteorologists interpreting the model runs.

 

[john adams]

According to the numbers, a coin flip is more accurate. That's a fact. Yes, weather models are much MORE accurate today than they were, but they're still far from what would be considered accurate. The bottom line is that forecast accuracy was better when we had veteran meteorologists interpreting the model runs.

Let me know how the snow/No snow coin flip does against the model in Texas in July.

Weather forecasting is fine. Your reaction to actual weather is up to you.

 

[TheRaven]

Let me know how the snow/No snow coin flip does against the model in Texas in July.

Weather forecasting is fine. Your reaction to actual weather is up to you.

I don't care about the model in Texas in July, nor a coin flip. Your argument is silly.

We're fortunate that you are not the one who allocates resources to meteorological research institutions. We'd be screwed.

 

[john adams]

Manchin says he is against the Union kicker for EVs. If that were to be removed, the 4xe credit drops to 3500.

Alternatively, they go with the Senate Bill that doesn't have any Union credit and is just flat 8K.

Or something else happens.

Reconciliation, if it is successful, still leaves a lot up in the air for those of us likely to get the credit in 2022. The big 2022 advantage is that the credit comes at the time of purchase...if it passes.

Most pundits think they will be wrangling (!) over this right up to December 24.

 

[docmac]

Back to the "NO POLITICS" banner....
I just read this info published 11/8, found here: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ev-tax-credit-house-bill-biden-refundable-cash/
I bolded requirements of interest to 4xe owners/purchasers. It is perhaps not as friendly to those of us who have bought 4xe's as we'd hoped. Of course, none of this has passed, and therefore is still subject to change....

Here's how the proposed changes shake out, and keep in mind, they may change yet. The base amount remains $4,000, as it is today, with another $3,500 available if the EV's battery pack includes at least 40 kilowatt-hours of capacity. In the case of plug-in hybrids, the gas tank cannot exceed 2.5 gallons. This is for cars placed in service before 2027. Now comes the $5,000 boost. EVs and consumers will be able to qualify for another $4,500 in the tax credit if an automaker makes the EV in the US with a union workforce. Another $500 comes into play for automakers using a US-made battery, for a maximum of $12,500 available. Today, the only car that would qualify for anywhere near the full proposed credit is the Chevrolet Bolt EV and Bolt EUV. This provision would, notably, exclude Tesla and even the Ford Mustang Mach-E, since it's assembled in Mexico.

In other changes made last week in the House of Representatives, Democrats increased the price cap for qualifying EVs. The new language allows for vans, trucks and SUVs with a manufacturer's suggested retail price of up to $80,000 to qualify for the $12,500 credit. Previously, the initial framework set a limit of $64,000 for vans, $69,000 for SUVs and $74,000 for pickup trucks.

The Democrats also reduced income eligibility to claim the full credit. Single filers with adjusted gross annual incomes of $250,000 or more, or joint filers with AGIs of $500,000, will not be eligible for the full credit. The dollar figures are down sharply from $400,000 for single filers and $800,000 for joint filers.

 

[VNT]

Dont they still have to honor the 200k units for mopar under the old bills where toyota, honda, gm, ford pimped the US taxpayer for their 200k hybrids etc and used up their quota.

personally they should end the kick backs after all use their 200k under the old rules and force the OEMs to figure out how to make these cost competitive without kickbacks from the US taxpayer

 

[mllcb42]

Back to the "NO POLITICS" banner....
I just read this info published 11/8, found here: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ev-tax-credit-house-bill-biden-refundable-cash/
I bolded requirements of interest to 4xe owners/purchasers. It is perhaps not as friendly to those of us who have bought 4xe's as we'd hoped. Of course, none of this has passed, and therefore is still subject to change....

Here's how the proposed changes shake out, and keep in mind, they may change yet. The base amount remains $4,000, as it is today, with another $3,500 available if the EV's battery pack includes at least 40 kilowatt-hours of capacity. In the case of plug-in hybrids, the gas tank cannot exceed 2.5 gallons. This is for cars placed in service before 2027. Now comes the $5,000 boost. EVs and consumers will be able to qualify for another $4,500 in the tax credit if an automaker makes the EV in the US with a union workforce. Another $500 comes into play for automakers using a US-made battery, for a maximum of $12,500 available. Today, the only car that would qualify for anywhere near the full proposed credit is the Chevrolet Bolt EV and Bolt EUV. This provision would, notably, exclude Tesla and even the Ford Mustang Mach-E, since it's assembled in Mexico.

In other changes made last week in the House of Representatives, Democrats increased the price cap for qualifying EVs. The new language allows for vans, trucks and SUVs with a manufacturer's suggested retail price of up to $80,000 to qualify for the $12,500 credit. Previously, the initial framework set a limit of $64,000 for vans, $69,000 for SUVs and $74,000 for pickup trucks.

The Democrats also reduced income eligibility to claim the full credit. Single filers with adjusted gross annual incomes of $250,000 or more, or joint filers with AGIs of $500,000, will not be eligible for the full credit. The dollar figures are down sharply from $400,000 for single filers and $800,000 for joint filers.

What you're seeing there is an example of poor journalism.

When that version of the bbb act came out, the summary document was written incorrectly so that it lumped together two different sections; the overall qualifications and the qualifications for the $3500 ev only bonus.

Rather than verify against the actual text, they just ran with it.

If we look at the summary you can see the joined language here

And the actual language here

I don't have the screenshot handy of the other half of the actual language that doesn't list the 2.5g requirement in the overall qualifications, but it is there.

 

[docmac]

I don't have the screenshot handy of the other half of the actual language that doesn't list the 2.5g requirement in the overall qualifications, but it is there.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks.

 

[sparky321977]

so all politics aside or not when my 22 4xe gets in do i get a tax credit when i file for next year or cap reduction if i lease through CC or NO? or is it still up in air?

 

[mllcb42]

so all politics aside or not when my 22 4xe gets in do i get a tax credit when i file for next year or cap reduction if i lease through CC or NO? or is it still up in air?

As of right now, if you purchase your 22, you get the tax credit when you file and if you lease, the lessor provides an equivalent amount incentive (assuming they continue to choose to do so, they are not obligated to) that is applied as a cap cost reduction.

If the BBB act passes as written, you would have the choice to have it applied as a tax credit when you file or as a point of sale rebate if you purchase or lease.

 

[jxr006]

tl;dr. If you make less than $400,000, and order a 4xe that costs less than 69K, you would get $8,500 (or $9,000) if this passes.

The bigger problem with America is if you are making less than 400k (200k after tax), why are you spending 70k on a depreciating asset.

 

[_olllllllo_]

The problem ive been finding in CA is most of the dealers at marking up 10K because that is about the amount in total of all the rebates you get back. You have to buy it in CA if you want some of the CA specific rebates.

The other issue is that if this passes all the auto manufacturers will raise the vehicle prices, most likely the amount you would get for the specific credit. This is not a tax credit per se in the traditional sense, the credit would be sent directly to the manufacturer/dealer (depending on sales model) and the user simply notes they "received" the credit on that years tax forms.

I wish they would offer the same type of credit if someone wanted to convert their vehicle from gas. The Wrangler offers the perfect platform to do just that. Swap the engine for a motor and remove the fuel tank and install batteries. The real benefit is that as battery technology advances over the next 5 years you could upgrade easily and not be required to purchase a new vehicle over and over. The other aspect is that currently all electric motors in vehicles are radial flux and that is 150 year old tech. Jeep's Magneto concept used an axial flux motor, which although more advanced and capable, have proven to be difficult to move into production levels. The current BEVs are all dead tech (think iPhone 3G) and in 5 years we will have iPhone 11 tech.

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