UPR vs MISHIMOTO OIL Catch Can

[zakaron]

I feel that catch cans / oil separators do provide benefit, but not so much to prevent a properly maintained engine from running 150-200K miles. I've seen plenty of engines with those high miles that never had a catch can installed. Essentially, the auto manufacture wants an engine to 1) pass CAFE regulations and 2) pass the powertrain warranty period. Anything above that is just extra money that can be cut & pocketed, so why bother adding something like a catch can? Well, that and they know most people will be clueless about emptying it.

With that said, Audi did feel the need with their direct injected supercharged 3.0L V6 to invest in an oil separator. Because of the carbon buildup they had with previous DI engines, they designed an elaborate PCV system that filters out oil particles and drains back into the crankcase - exactly what a catch can does, but it is self emptying. If it goes bad, it's a $120 for a new PCV valve because of all that other added oil separator stuff built in. And while these engines still suffer from carbon buildup, it is not nearly as bad as previous generations. So it does work.

Other real word scenario: my GTO was suffering from some pinging at medium load at lower RPM (2000-2500). It would also periodically idle rough. I checked thoroughly for vacuum leaks and cleaned all intake sensors. I did find oil buildup in the IAC passages (its an LS1, so cable driven). When I cleaned the oil out and sprayed down the IAC, it idled much better. I do occasionally clean the throttle body as well since oil gets built up on there. I got to thinking, what if all this oil is getting ingested, burning in the cylinder, and coking up on the piston? That would create hot spots leading to pre-detonation. When pulling the spark plugs and injectors, I could see down in each cylinder and the pistons were completely black and baked with carbon. Valves looked clean though, so I did do a full Seafoam treatment and also added a catch can. This was around 170K miles. It was not an immediate resolution, but surprisingly I am not noticing the pinging any longer. At 215K miles, it is running strong. I empty the catch can each oil change and have about 3-4 oz to dump.

So while not every application "needs" one, there are certain applications that can benefit from one. I will likely add one when I pick up my JL, but I won't loose any sleep if I decide to hold off either.

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[DanW]

Spoke to my nephew who owns 4 Piston Racing. They build drag racing and midget engines from stock Honda blocks. He offered the use of his new Dynojet dyno on my Jeep if someone wants to send me a catch can to try. We'd do before/after, and I'd return the can. If UPR sent me a catch can, and it shows a power gain, I'd buy it on the spot. (I might buy it anyway, even without a power gain, if I decide there's enough of a benefit.)

So, the offer is there. Put the horsepower claim to the test, on my Jeep, or, don't. I'd post up the complete results. I'd even run it a little while to let the ECM adjust to any changes the cleaner, oil-free intake air triggers. Say, 100 miles or so.

He puts catch cans on his race engines because racers want it and believe there is an advantage to not having it vent into the intake. He said he does not believe there is a measurable hp gain, and thus does not have one on his personal Type R, which btw, has been modified to produce over 500hp at the wheels, soon to be near 1000 hp. But no catch can. But he's very open minded to it and agrees with our friendly Pentastar engineer, that it does absolutely no harm at all.

I'd bet if it shows any power gain, at all, one will show up on that Type R of his in a New York minute.

It makes perfect sense to me, btw, that a DI engine with intake valve deposit issues would be one application that would greatly benefit from a can.

As for stopping pinging, that'd be a great benefit, too. My JK 3.8 used to ping when deposits would build up on the pistons. But Shell improved their additive pack for 87 regular gas a few years back, keeping the deposit build up at bay, and I've not had a problem since. Otherwise, that'd be yet another reason to throw one on the old JK. The other reason is that it burns up to a quart of oil per 1k miles. My only hesitation is that I'd be emptying the darned thing every week or more. Right now, I just have to check and add oil every 1k, which isn't so inconvenient. As for power robbing, I don't even think 1 quart per 1k miles robs enough for my butt cheeks to tell. That's still an incredibly small amount per cylinder per stroke. But I could be wrong. There certainly would be a better chance of horsepower advantage on my JK than on my JL, due to the significant oil consumption of that 3.8. I strongly suspect spark plugs would last longer for that engine, too.

 

[zakaron]

Doubtful there would be any power difference noticed on a dyno, but that is cool you are willing to try it out @DanW. Chances are with that kind of oil usage on your 3.8, its pulling oil either through the valve stem seals or possibly around worn piston rings. You can trying running a can of Blue Devil oil additive and run a high mileage oil which has conditioners to help seal worn valve stem seals. That would probably prevent more oil in the combustion chamber than a catch can, but the can will help supplement your efforts.

As a side comment / joke... I find it funny that 2 stroke engines *require* oil in the fuel to properly lubricate bearings & whatnot in the crankcase. It's just funny that this design is complete opposite of what we've been going back and forth on for 8 pages now!

 

[jdubya421]

Hit an obstacle going up at 35+ degrees for more than 5 seconds and you will wish you had a catch can.

 

[DanW]

Hit an obstacle going up at 35+ degrees for more than 5 seconds and you will wish you had a catch can.

Really, avoiding that condition is the primary reason I'd want (and may get) a catch can.

Pretty sure I've been there for probably 2 to 3 minutes. The one I saw lay out a smoke screen was at probably 40 degrees, barely hanging on, and stuck and at idle. It was running for probably 10 minutes before it smoked, but once it did, man it laid it out there!

When at the angle, my last glance saw 32 degrees on the inclinometer, but the hill got steeper from there. I never lost momentum, so my engine was never at idle. Not sure if that makes a difference, but maybe higher oil pressure helped? All I can do is guess. But I'm pretty sure @Kevin8086 felt the catch can cured the problem, like you said.

 

[Deleted member 53226]

I’m curious why you think a catch can is not useful? Not debating, but looking for your perspective.

My 2 cents: You don't really need a catch can on a port injected engine like the pentastar 3.6 because the fuel from the injectors basically washes over the backside of the intake valves as it enters the combustion chamber. So there is a constant cleaning process of sorts with respect to any oil vapors that would otherwise adhere to the valves. Can it hurt? No.

Now on a direct injection like the 2.0, this is another story. No fuel washing over the intake valves. The oil vapors stick right to the backsides of the intake valves. It will take a long time and many miles, but will become a problem. You can use whatever grade of gasoline you like, Walmart brand, 93 octane, NASA jet fuel, its all irrelevant because it never touches the back of the intake valves. A lot of 2.0 owners are going to be unhappy around the 80K mile mark when the carbon deposits accumulate enough to be a performance problem.

In either case, install a catch can and it will void your warranty, factory or extended. Folks will give the bit about Magnuson-Moss Act and the manufacturer having to prove the aftermarket part caused the engine failure, etc. This is technically true but what happens in the real world is FCA denies your blown engine claim, or whatever other major internal engine issue is possibly related to oil circulation, intake head, etc. FCA doesn't care about proving the catch can caused the issue. They'll leave it up to you to hire the lawyer and pay $200 an hour to fight the claim at an arbitration most likely. You'll have a 50/50 chance of winning depending on the nature of your repair. They know 99% of people will never take them to the mat for that reason. So you can use the Magnuson Moss Act paperwork to line your bird cage while you pay out of pocket for a repair.

 

[DanW]

Doubtful there would be any power difference noticed on a dyno, but that is cool you are willing to try it out @DanW. Chances are with that kind of oil usage on your 3.8, its pulling oil either through the valve stem seals or possibly around worn piston rings. You can trying running a can of Blue Devil oil additive and run a high mileage oil which has conditioners to help seal worn valve stem seals. That would probably prevent more oil in the combustion chamber than a catch can, but the can will help supplement your efforts.

As a side comment / joke... I find it funny that 2 stroke engines *require* oil in the fuel to properly lubricate bearings & whatnot in the crankcase. It's just funny that this design is complete opposite of what we've been going back and forth on for 8 pages now!

I've tried several oils, including HM and even heavy oils. They didn't really change the pattern. In fact, I recently went about 7k or 8k with virtually no usage on Mobil 1 0w20, then went to 5w30 Mobil 1 HM and it appeared again. Go figure. It seems to be PCV related, as a couple of times replacing the PCV valve resulted in a short term reduction in usage. But it has been doing it since low miles, I think around 40k. They are notorious for it and there is all kinds of guesswork out there as to why it is. But it will on occasion go to no usage at all, which is really weird.

I'm not worried about it, though, as it runs like new, otherwise, and I've got a no-deductible lifetime warranty. My dealership said that if it gets right at or above 1 quart per 1k, they'll do a consumption test to verify and then will replace the engine. They are just great folks there!

My brother had a 3.8 in a mini-van and got over 200k miles out of it. He said it drank almost a quart per 1k like mine, the whole time. But it never had another issue and ran perfectly. He just fed it cheap oil and ran it much longer than recommended on each oil change. He figured it was effectively changing its own oil about every 6k miles. Lol!

I was thinking the same thing about the 2 strokes the other day when filling my Stihl leaf blower gas can!

 

[Arisdocjk]

Just received my new upr catch can. Looks like a different design that what I have seen with other peoples upr catch can.

 

[joe@upr]

This is one of our new designs that we've gotten good performance out of over the years and it performs very well bidirectional. The aluminum diffuser style is one of a few new designs we have been using that deliver great. We've been working on these new designs as they are light years ahead of the competition for coalescing and condensing while offering a Better than OEM fit and finish.

Many companies just sell the same product designs year after year and never put the time in to refine the quality or performance. UPR likes to refine its products and keep the market on its toes. UPR only uses the highest quality components in all their catch can kits. You won't see us peddling plastic fittings, cheap rubber hoses, compressor filters, and or honeycomb internal filters as these are all gimmicks/placebos that perform poorly and fail over time.

Thanks for sharing the picture.

Joe

 

[cosmokenney]

How do these things work? In other words is it air with vaporized oil that passes through them? If so where is it coming from? And where does it go? Does the condensed oil return to the engine case after it has been separated?

 

[Gear_AU]

This is one of our new designs that we've gotten good performance out of over the years and it performs very well bidirectional. The aluminum diffuser style is one of a few new designs we have been using that deliver great. We've been working on these new designs as they are light years ahead of the competition for coalescing and condensing while offering a Better than OEM fit and finish.

Many companies just sell the same product designs year after year and never put the time in to refine the quality or performance. UPR likes to refine its products and keep the market on its toes. UPR only uses the highest quality components in all their catch can kits. You won't see us peddling plastic fittings, cheap rubber hoses, compressor filters, and or honeycomb internal filters as these are all gimmicks/placebos that perform poorly and fail over time.

Thanks for sharing the picture.

Joe

Any suggestion on getting more capacity (it's very hot to empty on the tracks). Also why only covering the one Bank?

I got yours to help with burning on steep climbs, this is after a 4 hour drive with some steep rock climbs.

 

[old schooler]

This is one of our new designs that we've gotten good performance out of over the years and it performs very well bidirectional. The aluminum diffuser style is one of a few new designs we have been using that deliver great. We've been working on these new designs as they are light years ahead of the competition for coalescing and condensing while offering a Better than OEM fit and finish.

Many companies just sell the same product designs year after year and never put the time in to refine the quality or performance. UPR likes to refine its products and keep the market on its toes. UPR only uses the highest quality components in all their catch can kits. You won't see us peddling plastic fittings, cheap rubber hoses, compressor filters, and or honeycomb internal filters as these are all gimmicks/placebos that perform poorly and fail over time.

Thanks for sharing the picture.

Joe

Hi Joe,

I got my catch can from you guys this month but it still has the old design.
How come? I would have wanted the new design..

 

[CarbonSteel]

This is one of our new designs that we've gotten good performance out of over the years and it performs very well bidirectional. The aluminum diffuser style is one of a few new designs we have been using that deliver great. We've been working on these new designs as they are light years ahead of the competition for coalescing and condensing while offering a Better than OEM fit and finish.

Many companies just sell the same product designs year after year and never put the time in to refine the quality or performance. UPR likes to refine its products and keep the market on its toes. UPR only uses the highest quality components in all their catch can kits. You won't see us peddling plastic fittings, cheap rubber hoses, compressor filters, and or honeycomb internal filters as these are all gimmicks/placebos that perform poorly and fail over time.

Thanks for sharing the picture.

Joe

Are the old units upgradeable to this? If so, how?

 

[joe@upr]

The previous units work very well and the updated design is for a simpler bi-directional internal for a no worry installation. This allows the in or out to be on either side of the diffuser. The two designs are not interchangeable and there is no need to worry about which design you have unless you are overly concerned with the direction of flow. As the original split-level diffuser sees about a 20% difference in coalescing if you run it backward and the new designs it is only a few percent.

Hope this helps, Joe

 

[Speedracer]

The previous units work very well and the updated design is for a simpler bi-directional internal for a no worry installation. This allows the in or out to be on either side of the diffuser. The two designs are not interchangeable and there is no need to worry about which design you have unless you are overly concerned with the direction of flow. As the original split-level diffuser sees about a 20% difference in coalescing if you run it backward and the new designs it is only a few percent.

Hope this helps, Joe

The wrangler 2.0 doesn’t have its own kit? Only seee the v6 kit

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