Towing with 3.0 Diesel

[Cypher]

I just saw a post linking to a thread in the JT Gladiator forum that is much more extensive than anything found in the JL forum . . . EcoDiesel derating due to oil temperatures, ambient temperatures, towing, steep grades and altitude. I just spent this evening reading all 17 pages of this thread. Mostly a good read . . .

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/ecodiesel-power-derating-as-temps-rise.45447/

that is a good thread, im about 1/2 through so far. Quite a few reporting similar to what I had happen this weekend, Ill see how it does once I add larger tires and some weight. I plan to keep this one lighter than my 2020 3.6 JLUR so hopefully that helps some.

I am not too worried about it yet, but if it ever derates when im on a trip or out in the desert on a tough trail i will revisit. worst case scenario is ill drive it until the 2023 Wranglers can be ordered, or the Ranger Raptor is out and trade it in lol. if these keep holding their prices like they are no worries.

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[AZ-Chris]

I'd be very surprised if the engine derates on the trail . . . as I stated earlier, I've NEVER seen oil temperatures above 230 F when wheeling. I just don't think there's much of a load at low speeds on the trail, regardless of inclines.

One comment in the Gladiator forum discussion really struck a chord with me . . . "these Jeeps are meant to be rock crawlers, not load haulers."

Since I have been planning on towing a "ruggedized teardrop" as an overlanding set-up, this is somewhat disappointing. However, I am hopeful that the BulletProof Diesel folks will have a solution before too long. One thing for certain, I will not be making any purchase decisions on a trailer until this problem gets satisfactorily addressed. In the meantime, I will continue enjoying the rock crawling aspects of Wrangler EcoDiesel.

 

[gerlbaum]

The couple things I know about towing:

1) a few folks in the thread seemed to confuse engine capability with tow rating. They make 5.4l f-450s and 6.7 power stroke f-250s.
2) you have to measure the weight of the trailer at the pin/ball. A 5000lb trailer will have a pin weight of ~3750lb.
3) someone mentioned it before, never exceed the gcwr on your door and that rating can never change, ever. You will bear some culpability in an accident for exceeding it; either financially or criminally.
4) gcwr and gvwr always confuse me.

 

[AZ-Chris]

I think I need to further clarify my statement above . . . I doubt the EcoDiesel will derate on the trail due to excessive oil temperatures as I don't believe the engine will be loaded enough to get the oil temperatures beyond the derate threshold (which appears to be somewhere between 250 and 260 degrees). Casey 250 lost engine power on the trail, but I believe it was because the DPF clogged . . .

GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating): the maximum allowable combined mass of a road vehicle, the passengers and cargo in the tow vehicle, plus the mass of the trailer and cargo in the trailer

GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating): is the maximum operating weight/mass of a vehicle as specified by the manufacturer including the vehicle's chassis, body, engine, engine fluids, fuel, accessories, driver, passengers and cargo but excluding that of any trailers

I do not see GCWR printed on my Wrangler door placard . . . only GVWR and GAWR (Gross Axel Weight Rating) are shown.

 

[00 Trans Ram]

The couple things I know about towing:

2) you have to measure the weight of the trailer at the pin/ball. A 5000lb trailer will have a pin weight of ~3750lb.

If you mean at the hitch, that's not even close. My boat/trailer weighs ~4800lbs, and the weight at the hitch/ball is ~300lbs.

3) someone mentioned it before, never exceed the gcwr on your door and that rating can never change, ever. You will bear some culpability in an accident for exceeding it; either financially or criminally.

You may have some civil liability. However, that is always a concern with getting in a wreck. I doubt that you would be sued for "only" $25k if you were towing within recommended weight, but sued for $100k when the lawyer finds out it was overweight.

That said, there is no law that I'm aware of (LA, MS, Federal) that makes exceeding tow ratings illegal. Ratings are not established or regulated by the government. They are simply all the car makers getting together and saying "We are all going to agree to use these tests (SAE J2807) in the United States".

Those same manufacturers then go to places like Europe and Australia, with the same cars, and use different tests to get tow ratings. And, over there, the tow rating for the Wrangler is 5500lbs.

 

[gerlbaum]

If you mean at the hitch, that's not even close. My boat/trailer weighs ~4800lbs, and the weight at the hitch/ball is ~300lbs.



You may have some civil liability. However, that is always a concern with getting in a wreck. I doubt that you would be sued for "only" $25k if you were towing within recommended weight, but sued for $100k when the lawyer finds out it was overweight.

That said, there is no law that I'm aware of (LA, MS, Federal) that makes exceeding tow ratings illegal. Ratings are not established or regulated by the government. They are simply all the car makers getting together and saying "We are all going to agree to use these tests (SAE J2807) in the United States".

Those same manufacturers then go to places like Europe and Australia, with the same cars, and use different tests to get tow ratings. And, over there, the tow rating for the Wrangler is 5500lbs.

A lot of what you said regarding the law and your liability is not accurate. It’s absolutely negligent (criminally and civilly depending on the circumstances) and maybe per se negligent depending on the state. Federal law isn’t relevant unless you’re doing this for hire then I suggest you consult the DOT.

That’s all I’m going to say about this.

Thanks for correcting me on the ball weight.

 

[00 Trans Ram]

A lot of what you said regarding the law and your liability is not accurate. It’s absolutely negligent (criminally and civilly depending on the circumstances) and maybe per se negligent depending on the state. Federal law isn’t relevant unless you’re doing this for hire then I suggest you consult the DOT.

That’s all I’m going to say about this.

Thanks for correcting me on the ball weight.

I know you said that's all you had to say, and that's OK. I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just discussing.

Do you know of a law that says it's illegal to exceed the tow rating of a vehicle? Or, were you talking something general like "negligent operation", which can apply to most any aspect of a vehicle?

 

[ChuckQue]

I spoke with Bullet Proof Diesel this afternoon and learned that they are acquiring a Gladiator EcoDiesel to serve as a test bed. They already make components for the Gen 3 EcoDiesel, but they are for the Ram Truck version but they are interested in expanding into the Jeep applications as well. They selected the Gladiator as they thought it represented a worse case scenario due to towing demands. Per the discussion, the towing package option includes "a heavy duty engine cooling system" and they wanted to know if I had that option as well.
@AZ-Chris to cross reference this with the current discussion, did you ever find out what the “heavy duty engine cooling system” consisted of?
While I do have the Wrangler towing package, I'm unaware as to whether we have a "heavy duty engine cooling" feature . . . I tend to doubt it.

As a side note, this past Saturday I went wheeling with my local club on Mount Ord, just south of Payson, AZ. To get there, I took route AZ 87 (the Bee Line Highway) which has several 7% grades coupled with 65 mph speed limits. Before cresting each grade while maintaining the speed limit, I saw oil temperatures of 251 F (multiple times) while ambient temperatures were a "cool" 95 degrees. My engine did not de-rate, but these temperatures make me nervous, especially because I'm NOT towing yet.

 

[ZahraM5]

The couple things I know about towing:

1) a few folks in the thread seemed to confuse engine capability with tow rating. They make 5.4l f-450s and 6.7 power stroke f-250s.
2) you have to measure the weight of the trailer at the pin/ball. A 5000lb trailer will have a pin weight of ~3750lb.
3) someone mentioned it before, never exceed the gcwr on your door and that rating can never change, ever. You will bear some culpability in an accident for exceeding it; either financially or criminally.
4) gcwr and gvwr always confuse me.

very helpful, thank you mate!

 

[AZ-Chris]

I've become a little complacent with pursuing this issue, but thanks to a few recent posts on this, and other threads, I reached out to BulletProofDiesel for an update. Thankfully, I got a quick response that I will quote as follows:

"Thanks for reaching out, it has been a challenging problem to solve. We have been working on completing a larger, much more efficient prototype radiator. We ended up gaining about 20% more cooling capacity and think this will make a huge difference under those heavy load/climbing conditions and help to manage engine oil temps because of the added cooling capacity. As soon as we have the unit installed in our Gladiator and complete some test runs, I will be back in touch with an update. Thanks again for reaching out."​

 

[WXman]

The couple things I know about towing:

1) a few folks in the thread seemed to confuse engine capability with tow rating. They make 5.4l f-450s and 6.7 power stroke f-250s.
2) you have to measure the weight of the trailer at the pin/ball. A 5000lb trailer will have a pin weight of ~3750lb.
3) someone mentioned it before, never exceed the gcwr on your door and that rating can never change, ever. You will bear some culpability in an accident for exceeding it; either financially or criminally.
4) gcwr and gvwr always confuse me.

1) I've never seen a 5.4L F-450. Was that really a thing once upon a time?
2) Do what? Tongue weight at the ball mount will be 10-15% of the total trailer weight. A 5,000 lb. trailer will apply 500-750 lbs. at the hitch, not 3,750 lbs.
3) Possible. Depends on how viscious the insurance company is in your area, but it's possible.
4) V = vehicle. C = combined. GVWR is max weight of vehicle and gear and people. GCWR is max weight of vehicle and trailer and gear and people.

 

[ChuckQue]

I've become a little complacent with pursuing this issue, but thanks to a few recent posts on this, and other threads, I reached out to BulletProofDiesel for an update. Thankfully, I got a quick response that I will quote as follows:

"Thanks for reaching out, it has been a challenging problem to solve. We have been working on completing a larger, much more efficient prototype radiator. We ended up gaining about 20% more cooling capacity and think this will make a huge difference under those heavy load/climbing conditions and help to manage engine oil temps because of the added cooling capacity. As soon as we have the unit installed in our Gladiator and complete some test runs, I will be back in touch with an update. Thanks again for reaching out."​

Thank you for following up on this sir!!

 

[AZ-Chris]

You are quite welcome!

I am quite certain that once BulletProofDiesel releases a product, this problem will be history. I’ll be one of the first to get this installed too.

 

[ChuckQue]

You are quite welcome!

I am quite certain that once BulletProofDiesel releases a product, this problem will be history. I’ll be one of the first to get this installed too.

Can you get me on that short list

 

[AZ-Chris]

Casey 250 Towing Over Mt. Hood Pass

Just as I would have predicted. As seen in the video at the 9:26 minute mark, Casey's oil temp hit 119 degrees C (246 degrees F) at an elevation of 2,300 ft. while at highway speeds and the EcoDiesel de-rated. Further, the ambient temperature was 25 C/77 F degrees (30 F degrees cooler than what I typically see in the summer time)!

I was seriously looking at buying this model trailer (it was ultimately my 2nd choice) but held off buying one until I got a handle on the engine oil temperatures under these conditions. I'm very happy that I waited . . . but I am still hopeful this problem will be solved.

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