Tired of California bashing..

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  1. OP
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    lagunajim

    lagunajim Guest

    Not sure what “few radical women” you are talking about - 57% of Americans currently support a woman’s right to choose, along with the U.S. Constitution.

    And I’m sure you’re one of the people who demands your constitutional rights as much or more than anybody else - so there’s that..

    You don’t get to decide for others when life begins - so to those who do not hold your views the only devaluing going on is the devaluing of the woman’s right to her own body.
     
  2. mwilk012

    mwilk012 Well-Known Member

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    You are speaking as though the start of human life is something that should be up for debate. There is no scientific answer that says anything other than human life beginning at conception. The constitution does not state that a woman has a right to kill her children. A controversial court decision does, and if we are lucky it will be overturned within our lifetimes.

    Edit: and the few radical women I refer to are those who treat abortion as a badge of pride instead of the terrible thing that it is.
     
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    lagunajim

    lagunajim Guest

    Sure there is!

    Science and two controversial court cases tel us that human life begins at viability - the moment the fetus could survive on its own, without the mother as a life-support machine.

    She cannot he forced to be that machine against her will - that’s called slavery. And it violates her privacy rights over her own body for you to argue otherwise.

    We aren’t going to convince each other of anything, but the idea that the position I espouse is radical, far-left, not well thought out, or arbitrary is ridiculous.
     
  4. mwilk012

    mwilk012 Well-Known Member

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    It isn't "far" left. It is mainstream leftism. Science does not at all say that a unique human life begins at viability. Not only is viability not a scientific reference point, as it constantly shifts based on the technology and medical facilities available to the mother. Human babies are not capable of caring for themselves for years after birth, so viability means absolutely nothing.

    You completely orbit around the point that the mother is responsible for the production of the fetus in over 99% of all abortion cases. You cannot in any way shape or form compare that to slavery.
     
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    lagunajim

    lagunajim Guest

    And there it is: punish the woman for opening her legs.
     
  6. mwilk012

    mwilk012 Well-Known Member

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    How is it punishment for a woman to endure the fruits of her own actions? Are women too weak to bear responsibility for their actions?
     
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    lagunajim

    lagunajim Guest

    First, because the male involved doesn’t get forced to help her body with the fruits of THEIR actions, and second because people are allowed to make mistakes - and we don’t punish them for that.

    Sorry you don’t believe in the freedoms guaranteed to all Americans by the Constitution, and think you know better about what a woman can and cannot decide about the inside of her body.
     
  8. mwilk012

    mwilk012 Well-Known Member

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    Men are absolutely forced to use their body to work for 18 years to pay child support. Why do you believe that a woman knows more about biology than biologists because she wants to kill her offspring in the womb? How ignorant can a person really be on this issue?
     
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  9. OP
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    lagunajim

    lagunajim Guest

    See - and you keep missing my point.

    I don't believe a woman knows more about biology -- I believe a woman has 100% dominion over what takes place ENTIRELY INSIDE HER OWN BODY.

    And a man providing child support, if he chooses or after she chases him in the legal system -- still is not at all comparable to maternity. I would add an LOL if it wasn't such a pathetic argument you made on this point. The woman undergoes a lengthy and challenging biological and medical process that changes her body and her life forever.

    YOU DON'T GET TO FORCE HER TO DO SO.

    You confer upon the fetus rights as a human being and as a citizen -- and then you gladly make the fetus' rights SUPERIOR to the woman's own rights -- forcing her to be subordinate to the fetus' needs.

    Then you justify that by saying, "well, she shouldn't have gotten fucked if she didn't want this to happen" -- and that is a moral not a legal argument.

    Legally you cannot force the woman to carry, and that is exactly as it should be -- both morally and legally -- which is probably why this has been our way for about 50 years.

    The court did create a dividing line to give the woman time to take actions she might wish to take before viability -- and anti-choice advocates are ever-trying to shave that time down.
     
  10. OP
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    lagunajim

    lagunajim Guest

    ..like I said, these are old worn roads you and I are trodding down. Neither of us will change the other's views.

    But anytime you want to stop judging me and pregnant women that would be a good start.
     
  11. mwilk012

    mwilk012 Well-Known Member

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    You're right, I do put the rights of the unborn child to LIFE as higher than the woman's right to kill the child because it affects her body after a decision that she made herself. How is it not a moral argument? Are women so uneducated on their own bodies that they don't know that unprotected sex leads to pregnancy?

    Do you believe that an unborn child is a human life or not?
     
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  12. mwilk012

    mwilk012 Well-Known Member

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    And you really feel that you have the moral high ground claiming that a woman should have the right to kill her unborn children? You cannot in any moral sense justify that position. Placing the life of the child below the convenience of the mother is abhorrent.
     
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  13. OP
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    lagunajim

    lagunajim Guest

    Haha you keep demeaning and dimishing the woman. Putting her SECOND (or even lower) than the fetus.

    That's called misogyny, and it's classic, archaic, and wrong.

    The woman is at least as important (if you believe the fetus is a life), and I would argue more important -- since she retains absolute authority over what goes on ENTIRELY INSIDE HER BODY.

    And this is where your argument fails on two levels: one, you are declaring the fetus a life upon conception, and second you are declaring it's rights superior to the woman's rights. Don't know how you get there without diminishing the woman for getting knocked up -- which is again a moral argument you have no right to make.

    Your comment about child support earlier further reinforces your misogyny, as if writing a check when they can be forced to somehow equals the woman's role in the process. [p.s. i have a woman friend with two daughters from a legally-married ex-husband who owes her more than $180,000 in child support she cannot seem to collect].
     
  14. mwilk012

    mwilk012 Well-Known Member

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    Wow anecdotal evidence, straw man arguments, appeal to authority, and ad hominem all in one. Fantastic. I have said it very clearly, the life of the unborn child is more important than the convenience of the mother. The life of the mother is more important than the life of the unborn child.

    Life beginning at conception is the only scientifically consistent argument that can be made. It is the point that a human body begins to form with its own unique DNA separate from the mother.

    Abortion is no different than infanticide. It’s legality does not equate to morality.

    Also your friend has a terrible lawyer. Garnish his wages.
     
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  15. OP
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    lagunajim

    lagunajim Guest

    I provided the anecdote as evidence of nothing.

    You make no provision in any of your arguments for the WOMAN, your arguments are all geared toward the fetus - as if the woman is no more than a machine whose function is to gestate the fetus. You support these arguments with the idea that the whole thing is the consequence of the woman choosing to have sex - that once she makes that choice, she loses all other rights she has as a human being and a citizen protected by our Constitution.

    You hate women.
     
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