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The Last Cowboy

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What nobody mentions is that the new Defender is a glorified crossover build on a Jag car platform.
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Dryver

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Yeah, this is a 2-door thing. I sorely miss that part going from JL to JLU, but if they went flat, they wouldn’t allow the seats to sit flat when folded down for cargo. It would be cool if it had 3 settings—100% up for rear occupants, 50% down for flat cargo and 100% down for rear visibility without it looking goofy when opening the rear doors.
It's also a 4xe thing. No flat load floor, but the headrests fold down completely to the front.
 

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gato

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Either your bias is showing or you never went off road. There is a massive difference between the JL, JK, and TJ. Also, the TRX comes with 35's.

Jeep has evolved pretty well over time. Bronco wasn't even around.
I'm sorry, but what is the massive difference in off-road capability between a JK and JL?

To make it apples to apples, lets use the configuration that is common between the two generations - 3.6L/M6, and the highest volume seller, the Wrangler Sport. (but you can do the same for the next higher seller as well - Sahara).

What is the massive increase in off-road capability?

Rubicon, went up 1" in tire size, but besides that what is the massive increase in capability?
 

gato

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Your benchmark appears to be the size of tires from the factory. Yet the first thing most people change on any SUV or Truck that they plan to wheel is the factory tires and wheels. It's kind of a weak point to make your stand on for what vehicle is more capable than the other.
I used that as simply an example. I could have used many others.

Gear Ratio: Max from factory from Jeep is 3.45 on all models and 4.10 on Rubicon. Bronco offers 4.7 on all models (again to best drive those bigger tires).

Shocks: Jeep only offers simple shocks. Ford on Raptor and Bronco (but also GM and others) offer very sophisticated bypass/electronically-adjustable/etc shocks. Again to better control those larger tires and vehicle motion.

Brake-Turn-Assist. Offered by Ford, not by Jeep.

Not knocking on Jeep, but I think it is undeniable that as far as off-road capability from the factory, things have been very static since the first Rubicon in 2004 or the JKR in 2008.
 

Outrun

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I'm sorry, but what is the massive difference in off-road capability between a JK and JL?

To make it apples to apples, lets use the configuration that is common between the two generations - 3.6L/M6, and the highest volume seller, the Wrangler Sport. (but you can do the same for the next higher seller as well - Sahara).

What is the massive increase in off-road capability?

Rubicon, went up 1" in tire size, but besides that what is the massive increase in capability?
You should be sorry. Also, why compare Sport when we are discussing orr-road capability?

Sounds like you should just sell your Jeep and buy a Bronco. You seem like you're into gimmicks.
 

jeepingib

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I used that as simply an example. I could have used many others.

Gear Ratio: Max from factory from Jeep is 3.45 on all models and 4.10 on Rubicon. Bronco offers 4.7 on all models (again to best drive those bigger tires).

Shocks: Jeep only offers simple shocks. Ford on Raptor and Bronco (but also GM and others) offer very sophisticated bypass/electronically-adjustable/etc shocks. Again to better control those larger tires and vehicle motion.

Brake-Turn-Assist. Offered by Ford, not by Jeep.

Not knocking on Jeep, but I think it is undeniable that as far as off-road capability from the factory, things have been very static since the first Rubicon in 2004 or the JKR in 2008.
The Wrangler has gotten better with every evolution. And it's getting better too. In 2003 when the Rubicon came out for the TJ it was a solid little rig, had 2 TJs, but in factory setup the control arms were pretty short and that limited articulation and made it a bit of a handful. Still the best vehicle from the factory for trails that was available back then though. In 2007 when the JK came around, the platform improved by increasing the length of the control arms which improved articulation, and overall usefulness. The ride was much better, shocks were longer and it could do trails stock that TJs had to be modified for. The Rubicon package also now included a disconnecting sway bar. And for a few of the early years you could option a non Rubicon with a rear locker. For the JL in 2018 there were still more suspension changes that made it better on, and off road. Shocks were longer still, articulation continued to get better, and longer arms handle speedy driving in the bumps better too. The axles are also much stronger with each generation. The TJ was most commonly equipped with a D35 rear axle which was notorious for breaking if you were rough on the clutch. The JK increased the spline size and eliminated the C clips, making it stronger. The JL has larger tubes, shafts, and gears. And can handle a much larger tire without any upgrades to the strength of the axle. Since the JK there have been steel bumper equipped trims, or options that allow the easy addition of a winch. The JL also included an option for 4 built in switches for accessories. The JL Rubicon has larger fenders that can accommodate a 35 inch tall tire without rubbing as well. And the Xtreme Recon package that has been available to order for a few weeks and will be delivered soon includes the 35s, taller suspension, lower gears 4.56 with 4.88 available, a stronger front axle, upgraded shocks... And the Mohave package from the Gladiator is coming to the Wrangler as well. Which includes remote reservoir 2.5 inch Fox shocks. The Wrangler has definitely evolved from the original, and gotten better every time.
 

Pingbling23

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The Wrangler has gotten better with every evolution. And it's getting better too. In 2003 when the Rubicon came out for the TJ it was a solid little rig, had 2 TJs, but in factory setup the control arms were pretty short and that limited articulation and made it a bit of a handful. Still the best vehicle from the factory for trails that was available back then though. In 2007 when the JK came around, the platform improved by increasing the length of the control arms which improved articulation, and overall usefulness. The ride was much better, shocks were longer and it could do trails stock that TJs had to be modified for. The Rubicon package also now included a disconnecting sway bar. And for a few of the early years you could option a non Rubicon with a rear locker. For the JL in 2018 there were still more suspension changes that made it better on, and off road. Shocks were longer still, articulation continued to get better, and longer arms handle speedy driving in the bumps better too. The axles are also much stronger with each generation. The TJ was most commonly equipped with a D35 rear axle which was notorious for breaking if you were rough on the clutch. The JK increased the spline size and eliminated the C clips, making it stronger. The JL has larger tubes, shafts, and gears. And can handle a much larger tire without any upgrades to the strength of the axle. Since the JK there have been steel bumper equipped trims, or options that allow the easy addition of a winch. The JL also included an option for 4 built in switches for accessories. The JL Rubicon has larger fenders that can accommodate a 35 inch tall tire without rubbing as well. And the Xtreme Recon package that has been available to order for a few weeks and will be delivered soon includes the 35s, taller suspension, lower gears 4.56 with 4.88 available, a stronger front axle, upgraded shocks... And the Mohave package from the Gladiator is coming to the Wrangler as well. Which includes remote reservoir 2.5 inch Fox shocks. The Wrangler has definitely evolved from the original, and gotten better every time.
But does it lock and drag a rear wheel bruh.
 

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aldo98229

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When JL first came out, I too was skeptical about its capability being that much better than JK’s.

But after I got a JL, I found out that:
  • My Sahara JL came from the factory with the same amount of ground clearance as my JK Rubicon Recon, which itself included 1-inch of extra clearance
  • I could fit 33s on my stock JL Sahara with no rubbing 99% of the time. I couldn’t do that to my JK Sahara without rubbing everywhere.
  • I can mount 35s on my JL Sahara without having a D44 in front. I would have taken my chances doing the same on my JK Sahara with the stock D35
  • The 8-speed automatic makes the 4:1 Rock-Trac less of a necessity, and allows the standard 3.45 gearing to drive perfectly fine with 35s
  • The ball joints, drag link and tie rod on my JL are not shot from driving on 35s, like they were on my JKs
  • The Mopar lift gets you at least an extra inch of lift compared to JK. And drives a lot better to boot.
Granted, these are all evolutionary changes; Jeep has to be very deliberate in its changes to Wrangler. But they add up nonetheless.

The end result is that I can take my Mopar-lifted JL Sahara everywhere I took my Mopar-lifted JK Rubicon Recon, without dragging my belly all over the place or breaking anything, and in much greater comfort.
 
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gato

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And the Xtreme Recon package that has been available to order for a few weeks and will be delivered soon includes the 35s, taller suspension, lower gears 4.56 with 4.88 available, ...
Again, because the XtremeRecon is a reactionary move to the Bronco (vs a properly planned product), it is a 1/2 measure and full of limitations. For example it is not available on a 2-door JL.

The 4.88 gears are only available on a manual. (again, simply reactionary to claim a better crawl ratio on ONE variant 3.6/manual).

Ford is making 35s/4.7gears available on 2-doors/4-doors/any trim. That is a big difference.

And their Rubicon equivalent (Warthog?) will be sporting 37s in short order.

P.S. Nice recap of the evolution of the Wrangler off-road capabilities on your post. Nice to have it all in one place. And, yes, off course the Wrangler has improved since 2003. But what you described are very incremental changes (nothing wrong with that), not massive leaps in capability.

Making 37" tires and incredibly sophisticated shocks available from the factory (like Ford is doing in Raptor37 and supposedly soon on Warthog) is a massive leap. And great for the off-road community.
 

SilverSurfer

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I'm sorry, but what is the massive difference in off-road capability between a JK and JL?

To make it apples to apples, lets use the configuration that is common between the two generations - 3.6L/M6, and the highest volume seller, the Wrangler Sport. (but you can do the same for the next higher seller as well - Sahara).

What is the massive increase in off-road capability?

Rubicon, went up 1" in tire size, but besides that what is the massive increase in capability?
I'll give you one of many, gear ratio's (And I am not talking final drive but actual gear ratio's).
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