Teaser 6: Jeep Magneto 2.0 Concept For Easter Jeep Safari 2022

[Zandcwhite]

The weight saving would be indeed be fairly significant, I'm just wondering how I would feel about having electric motors underwater for a period of time should I get stuck in a pond or mud hole etc. I think it may be for this reason only they may be thinking about putting it in from of the T-case just cause it enables them to prevent issues with that. I mean having to limp home to clean and drain your diff oil etc because your seal wasn't great is at least doable but I would hate to have to go back home to realize my electrical motor took water so I have to buy another motor cause I don't think cleaning them (short of rebuilding) is gonna be that great. A quick rapid search online shows wheel electric motors are IP66 or IP67 at the very most, if I'm gonna go fording in 30", I'd want IP68 for sure and that may be the whole issue with wheel motors...

https://www.motorauthority.com/news...s-electric-trucks-can-wade-through-deep-water
Wheel motors in deep water...rivian says yes. Tesla doesn't use wheel motors but axle motors, they've been seen fording water over the hood more than once. Our difs getting water in them becomes catastrophic pretty quickly as well.

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[Karnak]

https://www.motorauthority.com/news...s-electric-trucks-can-wade-through-deep-water
Wheel motors in deep water...rivian says yes. Tesla doesn't use wheel motors but axle motors, they've been seen fording water over the hood more than once. Our difs getting water in them becomes catastrophic pretty quickly as well.

Well if money is no objection then obviously Jeep needs to step up but these vehicles are no direct competitors to the wrangler. We have to keep in mind that the Rivian truck here in Canada starts at 86000 CAD for their base model while the Wrangler 4XE (i know its not a full EV but the best comparison right now) starts at 55000 CAD thats a world of difference and a totally different buyer group base, same thing for the Tesla's they're all nice but they start in the 60k CAD for the base and those aren't off-road (or rugged types) of vehicles and some of those companies outsource their electrical motors until they can start developing and producing their own which increases cost further so technically, jeep could just outsource those motors but then you'd see a big price increase on the EV wrangler.

I don't want to see a 2 door EV wrangler selling in the 80k+ otherwise it defeats the purpose and your cutting your customer base from people like me for example who would not be able to afford a 80 grand trail vehicle.

 

[KDB]

As far as the 86 miles between services and being low on charge, how is that any different than an ICE jeep? If you're too irresponsible to gas up, yes you'll likely be too irresponsible to charge up too.

Not too difficult to carry extra gas. I routinely carry at least one 2 gallon gas container (Rotopax) whenever I'm out west of the Rocky mtns.

 

[four low]

Indy cars run basically your sleeping with your cousin set up, but I'm sure you're a better driver and will heal toe your jeep around the track faster than they ever could? A jeep will never need any of that skill, as you'll roll it if you try cornering it that hard. It's personal preference and nothing more at this point. Not to mention, if you wanted to race your manual wrangler against other Wranglers, it has the lowest power engine and is still detuned to prevent clutch over heating, no amount of driver skill will keep you from getting lapped by a 392.

The manual transmission allure is not about speed, it's about driver input, control, and being involved in driving, not just being " cargo" behind the wheel.
Actually driving a vehicle with a manual transmission is more akin to actually sailing a small boat, or flying an airplane, vs doing a simulation. Input and engagement, that's " Priceless".

 

[Herson]

On the Magneto from last year people who were allowed to drive it said that in any gear you couldn't stall it, because the electric motor stops when you don't use the (gas?) pedal. Go pedal I guess. You just put it in whatever gear you wanted and used the gas and brake. But you still have the TX case to go with lower gears, and the regular lockers, and regular axles.

If Jeep comes out with a system where they put an electric motor at each wheel then they can use the computer to replace the 4:1 T-Case and selectable lockers, as the motors can handle all that on their own and linked together. That'll replace a heck of a lot of drivetrain weight, and clever battery packaging could be put down low for weight distribution. No need for a big, heavy Dana axle either.

If Jeep wants to be the leader in 4WD vehicles going forward, something like that is what they have to do.

I think if they stop using solid axles, then the magic of having a Wrangler is gone. If the make some sort of electric motor to be placed where the differential pumpkins go, and these motors powering both wheels on each axle, then I can see a future Wrangler that keeps the articulation of a solid axle and the torque of electric motors.

 

[Zandcwhite]

The manual transmission allure is not about speed, it's about driver input, control, and being involved in driving, not just being " cargo" behind the wheel.
Actually driving a vehicle with a manual transmission is more akin to actually sailing a small boat, or flying an airplane, vs doing a simulation. Input and engagement, that's " Priceless".

If the trail is tough enough, you'll be fully engaged (or rolling, dying, breaking, or at a minimum stuck) regardless of drivetrain choice. Obviously a manual keeps you more engaged in the same powertrain on the street, but I find 500+ ftlbs more engaging than 230 in the same vehicle even with an auto. Maybe that's just me, or 96% of buyers though?

 

[zakaron]

If the trail is tough enough, you'll be fully engaged (or rolling, dying, breaking, or at a minimum stuck) regardless of drivetrain choice. Obviously a manual keeps you more engaged in the same powertrain on the street, but I find 500+ ftlbs more engaging than 230 in the same vehicle even with an auto. Maybe that's just me, or 96% of buyers though?

I would have to say a majority of those 96% you mention prefer convenience. That's what people buy into. I don't know how many times I've talked with people who say "it's such a hassle to drive a stick in rush hour traffic, which is why I don't anymore". For me, an automatic is an insult to my driving ability. The manufactures now decide (program) how the vehicle responds and takes away the engagement of driving. I hate the feeling of trying to guess what an auto trans is going to do. There's no anticipation on its part. It can't see road conditions ahead; it can't see the car in front who is going to turn and know what gear to be in as the car turns for you to start accelerating. There's little to no engine braking. Sometimes it tries if it detects you going down hill and using the brakes. Sometimes, but not always, so who knows what it is really going to do. If I want to accelerate in gear, I have to be careful not to press too hard or it will downshift when I don't want it to, then I have to let off the accelerator for it to upshift, then I can continue driving. I've noticed even on the trails when I'm following an automatic that they have to keep riding their brakes downhill, so when its slippery they sometimes slide a bit going down. I leave mine in first and never touch the brake. The thing practically comes to a stop on a 10* slope it is that strong.

I used to have a modified 9C1 Caprice with the LT1 (5.7L) pushing about 350 torques. I sold that for the GTO so I can get back into a manual. I just couldn't get used to the auto. In fact, I'd take my poorly geared JL with its measly torque figures over the Caprice. My work vehicle is a 2017 Cherokee with the 3.2, and while it is tolerable, I can't wait to get home and drive my own vehicles. But I concede, my arguments will not matter being in the 4% who care about manuals. Manufactures will cite CAFE standards as the reason to get rid of a proper gearbox while they try to condition people further into the whole self driving thing. One step at a time. And perhaps I should stop there before I open a whole new can of worms. I am stepping off my soapbox now... thank you for anyone who made it this far.

 

[Zandcwhite]

I would have to say a majority of those 96% you mention prefer convenience. That's what people buy into. I don't know how many times I've talked with people who say "it's such a hassle to drive a stick in rush hour traffic, which is why I don't anymore". For me, an automatic is an insult to my driving ability. The manufactures now decide (program) how the vehicle responds and takes away the engagement of driving. I hate the feeling of trying to guess what an auto trans is going to do. There's no anticipation on its part. It can't see road conditions ahead; it can't see the car in front who is going to turn and know what gear to be in as the car turns for you to start accelerating. There's little to no engine braking. Sometimes it tries if it detects you going down hill and using the brakes. Sometimes, but not always, so who knows what it is really going to do. If I want to accelerate in gear, I have to be careful not to press too hard or it will downshift when I don't want it to, then I have to let off the accelerator for it to upshift, then I can continue driving. I've noticed even on the trails when I'm following an automatic that they have to keep riding their brakes downhill, so when its slippery they sometimes slide a bit going down. I leave mine in first and never touch the brake. The thing practically comes to a stop on a 10* slope it is that strong.

I used to have a modified 9C1 Caprice with the LT1 (5.7L) pushing about 350 torques. I sold that for the GTO so I can get back into a manual. I just couldn't get used to the auto. In fact, I'd take my poorly geared JL with its measly torque figures over the Caprice. My work vehicle is a 2017 Cherokee with the 3.2, and while it is tolerable, I can't wait to get home and drive my own vehicles. But I concede, my arguments will not matter being in the 4% who care about manuals. Manufactures will cite CAFE standards as the reason to get rid of a proper gearbox while they try to condition people further into the whole self driving thing. One step at a time. And perhaps I should stop there before I open a whole new can of worms. I am stepping off my soapbox now... thank you for anyone who made it this far.

If the guy on the trail in front of you is too dumb to downshift, it doesn't matter if he's in an auto or a manual. 4LO 1st gear the auto will creep down hills just fine. The 8spd does an amazing job of keeping the engine in the power band if you ask me. Again, I'm not knocking a good manual, especially in a sports car, but the 6mt in the Jeep is none of that. We also wheel above 10k feet multiple times a year and every other available engine is vastly superior to the 3.6L up there. That 230 ftlbs drops to ~160 at 10k feet and only gets worse above that, plenty of torque... for a Honda civic on flat ground.

 

[four low]

I would have to say a majority of those 96% you mention prefer convenience. That's what people buy into. I don't know how many times I've talked with people who say "it's such a hassle to drive a stick in rush hour traffic, which is why I don't anymore". For me, an automatic is an insult to my driving ability. The manufactures now decide (program) how the vehicle responds and takes away the engagement of driving. I hate the feeling of trying to guess what an auto trans is going to do. There's no anticipation on its part. It can't see road conditions ahead; it can't see the car in front who is going to turn and know what gear to be in as the car turns for you to start accelerating. There's little to no engine braking. Sometimes it tries if it detects you going down hill and using the brakes. Sometimes, but not always, so who knows what it is really going to do. If I want to accelerate in gear, I have to be careful not to press too hard or it will downshift when I don't want it to, then I have to let off the accelerator for it to upshift, then I can continue driving. I've noticed even on the trails when I'm following an automatic that they have to keep riding their brakes downhill, so when its slippery they sometimes slide a bit going down. I leave mine in first and never touch the brake. The thing practically comes to a stop on a 10* slope it is that strong.

I used to have a modified 9C1 Caprice with the LT1 (5.7L) pushing about 350 torques. I sold that for the GTO so I can get back into a manual. I just couldn't get used to the auto. In fact, I'd take my poorly geared JL with its measly torque figures over the Caprice. My work vehicle is a 2017 Cherokee with the 3.2, and while it is tolerable, I can't wait to get home and drive my own vehicles. But I concede, my arguments will not matter being in the 4% who care about manuals. Manufactures will cite CAFE standards as the reason to get rid of a proper gearbox while they try to condition people further into the whole self driving thing. One step at a time. And perhaps I should stop there before I open a whole new can of worms. I am stepping off my soapbox now... thank you for anyone who made it this far.

This. " Convenience" " For your Safety and Those Around You " The Dumbing Down is proceeding very nicely.
Now, people " can't remember" to push a simp!e button, and spend over $100 to have it done "autmatically".
Sharing the Road is getting really dangerous, I wonder why.

 

[Creeker]

Zandcwhite,

WIth regards to your comment

" Indy cars run basically your sleeping with your cousin set up, but I'm sure you're a better driver and will heal toe your jeep around the track faster than they ever could? A jeep will never need any of that skill, as you'll roll it if you try cornering it that hard. It's personal preference and nothing more at this point. Not to mention, if you wanted to race your manual wrangler against other Wranglers, it has the lowest power engine and is still detuned to prevent clutch over heating, no amount of driver skill will keep you from getting lapped by a 392. "

Everyone is entitled to the mistaken opinion.

It is understood that 3 pedals are a preference thing, but it also goes much deeper than that.
There are many intangible and tangible things to driving a Jeep with a manual transmission has. One does not need to be on a track to use the technique and skills needed to heal-n-toe, which is a form of driving art when done properly. Heal-n-toe is a great technique that can be learned in an open parking lot and then used at normal speeds on the street. One does not need to be racing or driving at 10 tenths to benefit from heal-n-toe. Until one learns to properly drive a manual, truly understanding what it is to drive a manual transmission will never be understood and the benefits will be a mystery.

If one cannot drive a manual, then one's vehicle is under the control of the mechanical and electrical systems that dictate what your vehicle is going to do and when. Is that better or worse? That is not the question. The real questions, is do you have the skills needed to properly drive a manual. Until you learn, you will always be on the outside looking in, letting others dictate what your vehicle is doing when. You will never know the advantages of a manual.

 

[Zandcwhite]

Zandcwhite,

WIth regards to your comment

" Indy cars run basically your sleeping with your cousin set up, but I'm sure you're a better driver and will heal toe your jeep around the track faster than they ever could? A jeep will never need any of that skill, as you'll roll it if you try cornering it that hard. It's personal preference and nothing more at this point. Not to mention, if you wanted to race your manual wrangler against other Wranglers, it has the lowest power engine and is still detuned to prevent clutch over heating, no amount of driver skill will keep you from getting lapped by a 392. "

Everyone is entitled to the mistaken opinion.

It is understood that 3 pedals are a preference thing, but it also goes much deeper than that.
There are many intangible and tangible things to driving a Jeep with a manual transmission has. One does not need to be on a track to use the technique and skills needed to heal-n-toe, which is a form of driving art when done properly. Heal-n-toe is a great technique that can be learned in an open parking lot and then used at normal speeds on the street. One does not need to be racing or driving at 10 tenths to benefit from heal-n-toe. Until one learns to properly drive a manual, truly understanding what it is to drive a manual transmission will never be understood and the benefits will be a mystery.

If one cannot drive a manual, then one's vehicle is under the control of the mechanical and electrical systems that dictate what your vehicle is going to do and when. Is that better or worse? That is not the question. The real questions, is do you have the skills needed to properly drive a manual. Until you learn, you will always be on the outside looking in, letting others dictate what your vehicle is doing when. You will never know the advantages of a manual.

I'm no professional driver, but have owned (and even autocrossed) multiple manuals in my life. Again, I stand by the statement that in an offroad vehicle, especially a JL that won't let you bump the starter in gear, the only reason to go with a manual is personal preference. Add in the fact that the clutch is garbage and it relegates you to a detuned version of the weakest engine in the line up and it's a hard pass from me. If you choose the compromised manual it is a personal preference with no advantage what so ever.

 

[zakaron]

I'm no professional driver, but have owned (and even autocrossed) multiple manuals in my life. Again, I stand by the statement that in an offroad vehicle, especially a JL that won't let you bump the starter in gear, the only reason to go with a manual is personal preference. Add in the fact that the clutch is garbage and it relegates you to a detuned version of the weakest engine in the line up and it's a hard pass from me. If you choose the compromised manual it is a personal preference with no advantage what so ever.

I'm not try to start anything, but rather just correct the statement about being able to start in gear. The JL will allow you to do this *IF* you are in 4lo and stalled. Only if you meet those 2 conditions, will it bypass the safety switch and let you restart while in gear - this is to allow using the starter to help get the vehicle up an incline rather than heavily slipping the clutch.

 

[Creeker]

Zandcwhite.

Here is the link as to how to start a JL if you stall it and are in low gear.



Here is an example of a vehicle where the automatic and all that fancy stuff does not work when it was needed

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There are other examples where the automatics and traction control system work against the driver when things got somewhat nasty. However, I do think Jeep's automatic systems do work well in most cases.

Granted, there some cases where an automatic is easier (e.g., crawling) and there are some cases where a manual will better (when you want to tranny to stay just in that one gear).

As an instructor for teaching people how to drive on the track, yes, automatics, paddleshifters, ABS, traction control etc. are crutches that help students to learn how to drive on the track. Ever watch Top Gear, or similar? Most professional drivers (e.g., The Stig) get rid of all the drivers aids when they go for a fast lap.

At the track, my students often initially think they can drive. They do not know that they do not know how to drive or even hold the steering wheel and turn it. My first task is to teach a student that they do not know how to drive. Typically, at the end of a weekend, most first time students have learned that they do not know how to drive. In a nutshell, us instructors jokingly call this taking a student from an uniformed incompetent to an informed incompetent. Once a student is at this point, the learning can begin.

Same is true with manuals. In the hands of a master, a manual is a beautiful thing. Many of those automated systems are there because most people are not interested in developing the skills needed to perfect their driving skills. Much simpler to put a tranny is "D" and press the skinny pedal. When brakes are needed, stomp the brakes and let the ABS do the work. To fast in a corner, let the traction control catch you. IMHO, very little is learned this way. The students who learn the most are those who don't have driving aids (e.g., a pre 1990's 911) and work relentlessly working on their skills to properly drive a manual.

Bottom line, manuals are great. Yes, it is a preference thing, but it is also a way to become more in sync with your car/Jeep. Driving a manual will allow the you to do things that modern vehicle electronics will not let you do (e.g., using the starter move the car while it is gear). Driving a manual takes time to learn and time to develop those skills. Developing those skills either on road, on the track, or off road makes one a better driver. And, it the type of vehicle doesn't matter, (e.g., Jeep, Porsche, Miata, Mustang) as long as it is a manual, you can learn. Until one has spent the time to truly develop skills associated with driving a manual, one will never know the full benefits of a manual. I can only hope that one day, you take the time to develop those skills.

 

[Zandcwhite]

I'm not try to start anything, but rather just correct the statement about being able to start in gear. The JL will allow you to do this *IF* you are in 4lo and stalled. Only if you meet those 2 conditions, will it bypass the safety switch and let you restart while in gear - this is to allow using the starter to help get the vehicle up an incline rather than heavily slipping the clutch.

Good to know, I don't have to slip the clutch or start in gear no matter how steep the incline though... It's a good thing they thought of this, since the clutch is known to overheat and Crack in normal street driving and all.

 

[TCogs1]

But wouldn't the load be better managed through a system of mechanical gears? Granted it may not be the Manual as we used to think of, but an electronic shifter (buttons or whatnot) that make you change the mechanical gears. when I'm saying Manual, I'm not referencing the clutching system I'm referencing to the mechanical gearing system inside the tranny as opposed to being fluid pressure driven like you see in automatics, granted my experience comes from years ago so the fine line distinction between the manual of nowadays and autos or nowadays may not be as clear as it used to be and maybe I used the wrong wording as well as it may be more of an hybrid like you stated (without clutch) but still mechanical inside as opposed to fluid driven.

Your right on track, in the mountain e-bike world the ones that do the best are midmount motors while still using the gears in the rear vs rear hub motors. It is known fact electric motors consume, require more energy (watts) with fixed gears and will yield less torque than multiple gears. . all motors have a range of optimum efficiency, gears extend the range (RPM, Torque, and Horsepower). In the machine tool (NC lathes and Mills) world DC motors with gear boxes for >30 years, this is nothing new..

In my view, I hope Jeep does stick with a manual trans and a 4 to 1 t-case.. I would hate to lose the solid axles.. I watched side by sides break and have terrible time at Calico trail blazers run last weekend as the Jeep based buggies and Slightly modified crawled up obstacles.

REF: Hub Motor vs Mid Drive Motor Comparison – E-BIKE REVIEW AND NEWS (ebikereviewer.com)

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