STOP ORDER on all Manual Jeeps [Update: software flash fix arrives in March]

[BroncoHound]

I don't buy it. The manual transmission is still being advanced and not much less modern than an ancient centrifugal clutch you find in most automatic transmissions.

I do agree with a lot of things you said, but I don't think its oldness that is driving out the manual transmission. I think it's the lack of desire to drive them reflected in reduced sales. Manuals used to have a gas mileage advantage and even a shifting speed advantage, but they don't anymore. So the only people still choosing to buy them are those of us that enjoy it or respect the simplicity (like a carb).

If you think about it, even today with such modern technology, the manual transmission is far more robust, easier to maintain, and probably less of a source of quality issues than most automatics (funny given this thread is about a broken manual).

42,887 units affected. This basically means Jeep sold 42k manual transmission jeeps in the last 3 years. Not sure what percentage that is, but with an average purchase price of 35k, thats about $1.5B. So we'll probably continue to see another generation of Manual Transmission.

In some ways, I think you've made my argument for me. Where does the lack of desire for a manual transmission (reflected in low sales numbers) come from? Because the technology of the automatics has improved so much. They now have the power advantage, the speed/performance advantage, and the efficiency advantage because technology has advanced to the point where the dynamic electronic controlled system can outperform any human interface.

I don't agree that the modern manual is more robust than most automatics. That's evidenced in my previous diesel pickup anecdote. While the automatic models were coming very near the 1000tq published numbers in 2018, the exact same platform with the manual transmission was derated to the same 610tq that it came with 11 model years prior. Now, that's not to say the transmission itself couldn't handle the power (many G56 have, in the aftermarket), but the clutch couldn't, and there wasn't any drive by the manufacturer to engineer a design that was capable of advancing the manual transmissions capabilities to match its automatic counterpart. I also don't agree that most are easier to maintain; odds are within the first 100,000 miles of ownership a manual transmission owner will swap a clutch out before an automatic transmission owner has to do anything other than a fluid and filter change. Taking performance modifications and niche vehicles out of the equation, I'd venture to guess (and that's all it is, a guess, as I have no empirical data to support) that most automatics get fiddled with less than manuals in modern vehicles that offer both.

43k units over 3 model years are manual. According to the first website that DuckDuckGo gave me, Jeep Wrangler sales 2018-2020 were just under 670k (https://carsalesbase.com/us-jeep-wrangler/). If those figures are accurate, that means manual transmission sales constituted 6.4% of sales. Would there be much passion behind developing a new product in any other industry for 6.4% of the sales market?

The old "slushbox" way of thinking about automatics as clunky, inefficient, and unreliable transmissions is largely gone the way of the dinosaur. The 8-speed auto (and really all of the 8HP/ZF 8-speeds that FCA employed in the last ~5 years) in the JL Jeep is a prime example. I've driven an automatic Jeep, and it's great. It's arguably (taking emotion and individual desire out of the equation) a better platform than the manual transmission at every single metric. But driver enjoyment and personal preference plays a part and, for me, 3 pedals will ALWAYS win over 2. When I owned my Hellcat Challenger, it was with the unequivocally slower 6-speed manual. The auto in that car was amazing, but I still prefer to row my own at any opportunity. Sadly though, when it comes to new car purchases, I firmly believe there won't be anything interesting/fun for sale with a manual transmission in the USA in 10 years. My advice to anyone that agrees with me is find something you enjoy driving with a manual and plan to keep it for the rest of your days (for me, it's my 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 24V Cummins and NV4500 5-speed); that way you won't be as heartbroken when a manual is no longer an option for your daily driver but you'll still have something old and simple and fun when you just want to feel like you're still a part of the driving equation.

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[OldGuyNewJeep]

Because the technology of the automatics has improved so much.

Including putting themselves in park when you open the door, or when a fuse is loose. No thanks.

 

[angrynewyorker]

I agree that the manual in most of the cars left that are still sold with them right now will be a thing of the past sooner rather than later, but I don’t think that will apply to the Wrangler. The best thing to happen for us manual Jeep lovers was that Ford is offering one in the Bronco. I suspect that will cause Jeep to keep offering a manual in the Wrangler just because Ford is. Competition is a great thing.

 

[wolf]

In some ways, I think you've made my argument for me. Where does the lack of desire for a manual transmission (reflected in low sales numbers) come from? Because the technology of the automatics has improved so much. They now have the power advantage, the speed/performance advantage, and the efficiency advantage because technology has advanced to the point where the dynamic electronic controlled system can outperform any human interface.

I don't agree that the modern manual is more robust than most automatics. That's evidenced in my previous diesel pickup anecdote. While the automatic models were coming very near the 1000tq published numbers in 2018, the exact same platform with the manual transmission was derated to the same 610tq that it came with 11 model years prior. Now, that's not to say the transmission itself couldn't handle the power (many G56 have, in the aftermarket), but the clutch couldn't, and there wasn't any drive by the manufacturer to engineer a design that was capable of advancing the manual transmissions capabilities to match its automatic counterpart. I also don't agree that most are easier to maintain; odds are within the first 100,000 miles of ownership a manual transmission owner will swap a clutch out before an automatic transmission owner has to do anything other than a fluid and filter change. Taking performance modifications and niche vehicles out of the equation, I'd venture to guess (and that's all it is, a guess, as I have no empirical data to support) that most automatics get fiddled with less than manuals in modern vehicles that offer both.

43k units over 3 model years are manual. According to the first website that DuckDuckGo gave me, Jeep Wrangler sales 2018-2020 were just under 670k (https://carsalesbase.com/us-jeep-wrangler/). If those figures are accurate, that means manual transmission sales constituted 6.4% of sales. Would there be much passion behind developing a new product in any other industry for 6.4% of the sales market?

The old "slushbox" way of thinking about automatics as clunky, inefficient, and unreliable transmissions is largely gone the way of the dinosaur. The 8-speed auto (and really all of the 8HP/ZF 8-speeds that FCA employed in the last ~5 years) in the JL Jeep is a prime example. I've driven an automatic Jeep, and it's great. It's arguably (taking emotion and individual desire out of the equation) a better platform than the manual transmission at every single metric. But driver enjoyment and personal preference plays a part and, for me, 3 pedals will ALWAYS win over 2. When I owned my Hellcat Challenger, it was with the unequivocally slower 6-speed manual. The auto in that car was amazing, but I still prefer to row my own at any opportunity. Sadly though, when it comes to new car purchases, I firmly believe there won't be anything interesting/fun for sale with a manual transmission in the USA in 10 years. My advice to anyone that agrees with me is find something you enjoy driving with a manual and plan to keep it for the rest of your days (for me, it's my 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 24V Cummins and NV4500 5-speed); that way you won't be as heartbroken when a manual is no longer an option for your daily driver but you'll still have something old and simple and fun when you just want to feel like you're still a part of the driving equation.

Very good write. I must say that every automatic and manual transmission I have owned has been with no problems. These were all pre-electronic craze, and at my age its been a lot.

 

[beachbumm78]

I'd like to say I have "no ragerts" with the MT, but, it's not my favorite configuration (6th is worthless, reverse lockout is annoying, I wish it was a standard 5spd), mine has failed at 13K miles (probably master cylinder - still in the shop), the clutch action has always been weird/unpredictable and there are two recalls so far - both of which are bandaids for a pressure plate that explodes when the clutch slips. From what I understand, a slipping clutch is not an uncommon thing in vehicles as they get older. So if it's slipping and you don't notice soon enough, you could have a catastrophic failure resulting in a vehicle fire. Cool.
Note: I don't know enough about transmissions to know if that's accurate, but it might be! It could be the second recall may prevent this, or, maybe we won't know until more Jeeps start catching fire. Either way, confidence = low.

As much as I like driving a manual, If I had a do-over; I'd get an auto. My wife's automatic Wrangler drives real nice. Who knows though, maybe when mine is fixed it'll drive great for hundreds of thousands of miles and I'll change my tune... I'd love to be wrong. I'm not sure I'll last long enough to be wrong though. My lease is up in 18 months; maybe I don't need two Wranglers in the garage. If Jeep announces a production J6 in the next year, it'll be an easy decision for me (a guy can dream, can't he?)

Sorry to hear about your trials. My master cylinder failed also and was replaced about 5 mo ago. Wasn’t even a year old. Had around 27k on it.

 

[BroncoHound]

So there are 2 centerforce clutch options I see, which one is the best to replace our sketchy stock ones?

As a means of atonement for being responsible for derailing the thread, I'll try and steer it back a bit by addressing this.

The quick and direct answer to your question is, at this time, neither.

These are the two (previously) offered Centerforce clutches for the JL. However both are currently off the market and Centerforce has made a statement that they are revising the products and should have an updated line in March. I've no idea if they'll keep the same part numbers as before, but I assume they will:

KCFT157077: This is their "Centerforce II" clutch assembly, has a single organic disc, and is rated to hold a maximum of 434ft. lbs. of torque.

KDF157077: This is their "dual friction" clutch assembly, has a single organic/carbon disc, and is rated to hold a maximum of 494ft. lbs. of torque.

The difference between the two is the composite material (and arrangement) on the facings of the clutch disc. The "organic" clutch face material is the softest material generally offered meaning it allows for the smoothest engagement, is more resistant to slippage wear, but doesn't carry the holding power of the stiffer facing materials. There are several other materials you'll see clutch discs being made of: ceramic, feramic, kevlar, carbon, and blends of all of these. Each of these other types of material, to varying degrees, increase holding power of the clutch but at the sacrifice of engagement slippage and "grabbiness."

Typically with single disc clutches, when you see a blend, there will be one material on one side of the disc and a different material on the other. However it looks like Centerforce has taken a different approach to this with their dual friction disc and also changed the arrangement. From what I've been able to read, it looks like one side of the disc is 360deg organic coverage whereas the other side of the disc is a slotted arrangement of both organic and carbon facings. I suspect they did this as a way of minimizing the grabbiness of the harder carbon material while still increasing the holding power of a fully organic faced disc.

That said, if Centerforce releases revised versions of these same clutches, which one is best for you depends on your needs. Do you have plans for forced induction, a V8 swap, or other major power additions? Do you do a bunch of high rev clutch dumps (such as harsher rock crawling or drag racing)? If so, the dual friction will likely hold up for longer for you. If you are more interested in a smooth daily driver on your mostly stock Jeep with the smoothest engagement and most slippage without overtly wearing the clutch, the Centerforce II would probably be your best bet.

Honestly, I think the Centerforce II clutch is probably the best bet for nearly everyone with a JL Jeep that ISN'T planning a V8 swap or is sitting on one-ton axles and 40's doing high rev clutch dumps in Moab. The stock platform is only putting out 260ft. lbs. of torque to the clutch, so the 434ft. lbs. rating of the organic clutch face is more than adequate. Even with forced induction, which typically (depending on the kit) yields ~35% increase in hp/tq, would only increase the output of the Pentastar to ~350ft. lbs. I'm frankly not entirely sure why Centerforce even bothered developing a dual friction clutch for the JL.

 

[DanW]

As a means of atonement for being responsible for derailing the thread, I'll try and steer it back a bit by addressing this.

The quick and direct answer to your question is, at this time, neither.

These are the two (previously) offered Centerforce clutches for the JL. However both are currently off the market and Centerforce has made a statement that they are revising the products and should have an updated line in March. I've no idea if they'll keep the same part numbers as before, but I assume they will:

KCFT157077: This is their "Centerforce II" clutch assembly, has a single organic disc, and is rated to hold a maximum of 434ft. lbs. of torque.

KDF157077: This is their "dual friction" clutch assembly, has a single organic/carbon disc, and is rated to hold a maximum of 494ft. lbs. of torque.

The difference between the two is the composite material (and arrangement) on the facings of the clutch disc. The "organic" clutch face material is the softest material generally offered meaning it allows for the smoothest engagement, is more resistant to slippage wear, but doesn't carry the holding power of the stiffer facing materials. There are several other materials you'll see clutch discs being made of: ceramic, feramic, kevlar, carbon, and blends of all of these. Each of these other types of material, to varying degrees, increase holding power of the clutch but at the sacrifice of engagement slippage and "grabbiness."

Typically with single disc clutches, when you see a blend, there will be one material on one side of the disc and a different material on the other. However it looks like Centerforce has taken a different approach to this with their dual friction disc and also changed the arrangement. From what I've been able to read, it looks like one side of the disc is 360deg organic coverage whereas the other side of the disc is a slotted arrangement of both organic and carbon facings. I suspect they did this as a way of minimizing the grabbiness of the harder carbon material while still increasing the holding power of a fully organic faced disc.

That said, if Centerforce releases revised versions of these same clutches, which one is best for you depends on your needs. Do you have plans for forced induction, a V8 swap, or other major power additions? Do you do a bunch of high rev clutch dumps (such as harsher rock crawling or drag racing)? If so, the dual friction will likely hold up for longer for you. If you are more interested in a smooth daily driver on your mostly stock Jeep with the smoothest engagement and most slippage without overtly wearing the clutch, the Centerforce II would probably be your best bet.

Honestly, I think the Centerforce II clutch is probably the best bet for nearly everyone with a JL Jeep that ISN'T planning a V8 swap or is sitting on one-ton axles and 40's doing high rev clutch dumps in Moab. The stock platform is only putting out 260ft. lbs. of torque to the clutch, so the 434ft. lbs. rating of the organic clutch face is more than adequate. Even with forced induction, which typically (depending on the kit) yields ~35% increase in hp/tq, would only increase the output of the Pentastar to ~350ft. lbs. I'm frankly not entirely sure why Centerforce even bothered developing a dual friction clutch for the JL.

If they just took those off the market, their timing is just horrible.

Thanks for the VERY informative description of these clutches! Any ETA on their revised design or designs?

 

[Willing&Able]

If they just took those off the market, their timing is just horrible.

Thanks for the VERY informative description of these clutches! Any ETA on their revised design or designs?

March 1

 

[DanW]

March 1

Ok, then maybe not so bad! Any other news on it?

 

[neil]

We are in the process of completing an outbound program to notify customers who ordered a vehicle that is affected.
The dealerships have already been notified. They have many resources available to them to check upcoming recalls.

Kaitlin
Jeep Cares

i am happier knowing y'all don't hate me!

 

[Amaruq]

My wife is getting a Rubicon once the software is flashed. She’s been insistent on staying manual, now thinking about her decision.
I’m happy to read you’ve had a good experience with the manual. What do you like most about it?

It’s incredibly fun to drive (and Jeeps are already fun). It’s been great off-road. 26k miles on it (yes it’s only been 8 months) - went to Telluride and back, then to Moab and back, plus several trips to Texas.

 

[AZ Hella]

A “software update” to fix a mechanical problem is complete BS. FCA should be ashamed of themselves. Jeep needs to step up to the plate on this. We need a new clutch, not new software.

 

[MackHeath]

March 1

I had understood from the posts by @JeepCares that it would be closer to March 19. Is March 1 an update or coming from another source?

 

[JimmyZ]

I had understood from the posts by @JeepCares that it would be closer to March 19. Is March 1 an update or coming from another source?

I think you misunderstood his response. He was referring to the Centerforce aftermarket part revision

 

[MackHeath]

I think you misunderstood his response. He was referring to the Centerforce aftermarket part revision

You're correct. I did misunderstand his response. Reading too fast and, frankly, hoping for some good news on the software timing as I'm waiting on the stop sale order to be lifted to buy my first Jeep. Thanks for the clarification

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