Russian election meddling and treatment of US intelligence agencies by President

Todkavonic

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I don't think he's an idiot...he's just not a politician like the other 99.999% are and probably isn't or hasn't been aware of how the big "political machines" tend to truly operate. I think he's some guy that went to sleep one night and woke up the next day and thought..."hey, I think I'm going to run for president". I don't even think he likes the job but was completely shocked that he made it as far as he did...but I also don't think he's a quitter either. That's why he is the way he is...he's not from the "establishment" and he's beholden to no one and really has nothing to lose so he says whatever the hell he wants to say and when he wants to say it. As for the people he chose to surround himself with...I don't have an answer for that. Those that have been indicted so far are not indicted for colluding with the Russians though. As I've previously stated, I think if there is evidence of collusion, it would have been found by now and would have been released to the public because I don't think any normal American would want someone in office...republican or democrat...that has been on the side of the Russians to the extent that he is accused of and holding the office/position that he holds in our land. He would've been gone by now.

He never intended to win. Hell he didn't even write an acceptance speech. This was all about making money from campaigning. Winning brings scrutiny and, lets face it, he's a crook. Whether or not he'll be punished is the question. Regarding your collusion/no collusion comment, the investigation is still underway. That the public isn't privy to the facts, yet, means very little.
 

mwilk012

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Who is "they"? The MSM? So the MSM, run by a collection of billionaires, are in cahoots with the DNC to somehow cover-up some sort of scandal around the 2016 election, that Hillary lost, so that they can get back at trump? You're going to have to flesh that one out a bit for me. I just don't speak crazy right wing conspiracy as well as you do I guess.
The not a crazy right wing conspiracy, I didn’t even vote for Trump. The MSM and the FBI are simply biased so heavily against him that they have been running fake stories since the election and grossly overstating the importance of this inquisition. The only crimes that have been committed were making false statements to the FBI during a counterintelligence operation that never should have happened. It wasn’t even a criminal investigation.
 

Todkavonic

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The not a crazy right wing conspiracy, I didn’t even vote for Trump. The MSM and the FBI are simply biased so heavily against him that they have been running fake stories since the election and grossly overstating the importance of this inquisition. The only crimes that have been committed were making false statements to the FBI during a counterintelligence operation that never should have happened. It wasn’t even a criminal investigation.
Oh, it is. And again with "inquisition". It's a special council investigation run by a life-long republican, appointed by a republican deputy attorney general, who, himself, was appointed by a republican president. And there's much more than false statements made to the FBI, and, I'm thinking, much, much more to come.

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mwilk012

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You just listed a bunch of people charged with lying to investigators in a counterintelligence operation. Next you'll be calling the Mueller report a "bombshell" and say "the walls are closing in" just like you've been trained.
 

Todkavonic

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You just listed a bunch of people charged with lying to investigators in a counterintelligence operation. Next you'll be calling the Mueller report a "bombshell" and say "the walls are closing in" just like you've been trained.
Nope. I responded to your claim that the only crime was lying to Congress with a list of people who committed a variety of additional crimes and are either charged or have pleaded guilty. If you can't acknowledge that you misspoke or that I'm correct, maybe you should stay in whatever safe space you require where your opinions aren't challenged with facts.
 

mwilk012

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Nope. I responded to your claim that the only crime was lying to Congress with a list of people who committed a variety of additional crimes and are either charged or have pleaded guilty. If you can't acknowledge that you misspoke or that I'm correct, maybe you should stay in whatever safe space you require where your opinions aren't challenged with facts.
I never said Congress.
Look at the list of so called crimes, they’re all a part of the investigation itself, apart from some obscure financial crimes that cannot be tied directly to the president. The claim being perpetuated by the media and the FBI is that Trump is effectively a Russian plant set up to further the goals of the Russian government.
 

Todkavonic

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I never said Congress.
Look at the list of so called crimes, they’re all a part of the investigation itself, apart from some obscure financial crimes that cannot be tied directly to the president. The claim being perpetuated by the media and the FBI is that Trump is effectively a Russian plant set up to further the goals of the Russian government.
You're correct, you said that they lied to the FBI, not congress. My mistake. See how easy that was? Both are felonies by the way. And looking at the above list, yup, they're both there along with some others: obstruction of justice, witness tampering, conspiracy to defraud the US. Are these not crimes? Should people be allowed to obstruct justice or lie to congress without penalty or even fear of penalty. That's a rather, um, liberal interpretation of jurisprudence.
 

mwilk012

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You're correct, you said that they lied to the FBI, not congress. My mistake. See how easy that was? Both are felonies by the way. And looking at the above list, yup, they're both there along with some others: obstruction of justice, witness tampering, conspiracy to defraud the US. Are these not crimes? Should people be allowed to obstruct justice or lie to congress without penalty or even fear of penalty. That's a rather, um, liberal interpretation of jurisprudence.
As I’ve said repeatedly, the only crimes committed have been in connection to the investigation itself.
 

Todkavonic

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As I’ve said repeatedly, the only crimes committed have been in connection to the investigation itself.
Um, an investigation revealed crimes: obstruction of justice, lying to Congress, lying to the FBI, bank fraud, being an unregistered agent to a foreign principal. Those are crimes that, supposedly, wouldn’t have been identified had there not been an investigation.

Your honor! There is only evidence that my client robbed that bank because there was an investigation into the robbery! Had there been no investigation, you’d have no proof!

So, do we ignore those crimes? Come on now, argue in good faith.
 

W5MQS

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Um, an investigation revealed crimes: obstruction of justice, lying to Congress, lying to the FBI, bank fraud, being an unregistered agent to a foreign principal. Those are crimes that, supposedly, wouldn’t have been identified had there not been an investigation.

Your honor! There is only evidence that my client robbed that bank because there was an investigation into the robbery! Had there been no investigation, you’d have no proof!

So, do we ignore those crimes? Come on now, argue in good faith.
I think the point that he is trying to make is that the investigation is supposed to find evidence of a DIRECT link of collusion to the Russians by/with the president but so far, they have found nothing...none...nadda...zip...zilch...zero. Everything that has been found so far are INCIDENTAL crimes committed by these individuals during the course of the investigation that are NOT (meaning the crimes, not the people) tied to the president. Evidence shows that, yes, they have committed these crimes on their own and in some instances, years before the election itself. Furthermore, Mueller most likely tries or has already tried to use these crimes against these individuals to get them to come up with/confess something against the president but so far he has failed. If someone that Mueller and his crew indicts does come up with something, I'd have to wonder just how true it really is considering that "confession" is probably made under duress.
 

mwilk012

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Um, an investigation revealed crimes: obstruction of justice, lying to Congress, lying to the FBI, bank fraud, being an unregistered agent to a foreign principal. Those are crimes that, supposedly, wouldn’t have been identified had there not been an investigation.

Your honor! There is only evidence that my client robbed that bank because there was an investigation into the robbery! Had there been no investigation, you’d have no proof!

So, do we ignore those crimes? Come on now, argue in good faith.
Those are almost entirely crimes resulting FROM the investigation itself. That’s why they’re called process crimes. There is no evidence of the offense being investigated ever having occurred. That’s the problem.

Edit: that’s a terrible analogy by the way. A more analogous situation would be if someone had a bank account at a bank that might have been robbed, and when asked if they had a bank account there they said no. Having the account was not a crime.
 

Todkavonic

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I think the point that he is trying to make is that the investigation is supposed to find evidence of a DIRECT link of collusion to the Russians by/with the president but so far, they have found nothing...none...nadda...zip...zilch...zero. Everything that has been found so far are INCIDENTAL crimes committed by these individuals during the course of the investigation that are NOT (meaning the crimes, not the people) tied to the president. Evidence shows that, yes, they have committed these crimes on their own and in some instances, years before the election itself. Furthermore, Mueller most likely tries or has already tried to use these crimes against these individuals to get them to come up with/confess something against the president but so far he has failed. If someone that Mueller and his crew indicts does come up with something, I'd have to wonder just how true it really is considering that "confession" is probably made under duress.

It’s nice that you’re trying to clarify that for both of us although you’re wrong about the purpose of the investigation. From wiki

“The ongoing Special Counsel investigation (also referred to as the Mueller Probe)[1] is a United States law enforcement and counterintelligence investigation of the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election. This investigation includes any possible links or coordination between Donald Trump's presidential campaign and the Russian government, "and any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Counsel_investigation_(2017–present)

This is how Whitewater ended up with stains on a blue dress.
 

Todkavonic

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Those are almost entirely crimes resulting FROM the investigation itself. That’s why they’re called process crimes. There is no evidence of the offense being investigated ever having occurred. That’s the problem.

Edit: that’s a terrible analogy by the way. A more analogous situation would be if someone had a bank account at a bank that might have been robbed, and when asked if they had a bank account there they said no. Having the account was not a crime.

Hey! Breakthrough! We went from entirely related to the inquisition to almost entirely from the investigation. Baby steps.
 

mwilk012

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That’s not going deep enough on the question of “why”.
 

mwilk012

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Hey! Breakthrough! We went from entirely related to the inquisition to almost entirely from the investigation. Baby steps.
Because the others are completely unrelated to the president and the “Russian collusion” narrative being perpetuated by the media.
 
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