Rough draft: Cost analysis of Diesel Wrangler

[GARRIGA]

Soot in the engine sounds bad

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[CarbonSteel]

Soot in the engine sounds bad

Diesels use EGR to force the exhaust back through the system to be burned a second time. Since, by their very nature, they produce copious amounts of soot, this tends to complicate everything. EGR coolers usually become plugged or worse leak and can introduce coolant into the engine block (on some designs).

The most popular diesels have aftermarket kits to block the EGR system. From my point of view, blocking the EGR is not that big of a deal IF the remainder of the emissions system is intact, though it means more regens due to the increased soot in the exhaust.

 

[JLURD]

I have seen VERY few deleted diesels that did not smoke under load which tells me the vast majority of the tunes are polluting and with the power desnity of today's mills, many of them are polluting more than pre-2007 levels.

Define “polluting”. Again, we have different components of air pollution which are at odds with each other with regards to modern emissions control equipment. DPFs require an increase in CO2 production by design. Most of the diesel tunes on the road roll by you and are never “seen”. If someone gets rid of the DPF and EGR, runs their diesel for 500k miles instead of 250, who calculates the environmental impact of keeping a vehicle on the road longer while producing less CO2? Who balances that with the increased NOx and particulate? I think we can all agree the EPA doesn’t.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Define “polluting”. Again, we have different components of air pollution which are at odds with each other with regards to modern emissions control equipment. DPFs require an increase in CO2 production by design. Most of the diesel tunes on the road roll by you and are never “seen”. If someone gets rid of the DPF and EGR, runs their diesel for 500k miles instead of 250, who calculates the environmental impact of keeping a vehicle on the road longer while producing less CO2? Who balances that with the increased NOx and particulate? I think we can all agree the EPA doesn’t.

CO2 is a natural by-product of a mammal breathing (of course, there are other sources) whereas NOx and DPM are known to cause cancer and are not typically naturally occurring. Given the choice, I will take increased CO2 over NOx and DPM any day of the week--especially considering what happens without emissions systems. IMHO, just because the diesels are not "seen" does not mean they are not spewing DPM into the atmosphere--it is built into their design. All of this is a trade-off in some shape or fashion, but in the case of modern light duty diesels (I am speaking of trucks), how much power is enough?

At any rate--time will tell about the long term road maps for diesels and emission systems.

 

[GARRIGA]

Diesels use EGR to force the exhaust back through the system to be burned a second time. Since, by their very nature, they produce copious amounts of soot, this tends to complicate everything. EGR coolers usually become plugged or worse leak and can introduce coolant into the engine block (on some designs).

The most popular diesels have aftermarket kits to block the EGR system. From my point of view, blocking the EGR is not that big of a deal IF the remainder of the emissions system is intact, though it means more regens due to the increased soot in the exhaust.

If we can’t block the the EGR then what other remedies available? I’m assuming blocking is via some illegal deactivation.

 

[CarbonSteel]

If we can’t block the the EGR then what other remedies available? I’m assuming blocking is via some illegal deactivation.

It is typically a plate that blocks the EGR port (mechanically) and **usually** does not cause any issues.

 

[JLURD]

CO2 is a natural by-product of a mammal breathing (of course, there are other sources) whereas NOx and DPM are known to cause cancer and are not typically naturally occurring. Given the choice, I will take increased CO2 over NOx and DPM any day of the week--especially considering what happens without emissions systems. IMHO, just because the diesels are not "seen" does not mean they are not spewing DPM into the atmosphere--it is built into their design. All of this is a trade-off in some shape or fashion, but in the case of modern light duty diesels (I am speaking of trucks), how much power is enough?

At any rate--time will tell about the long term road maps for diesels and emission systems.

What do you suppose is the particulate and NOx impact of extracting, transporting, and refining 20% more fuel? What do you suppose is the impact of a single extra million-acre wildfire on both?

 

[GARRIGA]

It is typically a plate that blocks the EGR port (mechanically) and **usually** does not cause any issues.

Won’t void the warranty?

 

[CarbonSteel]

What do you suppose is the particulate and NOx impact of extracting, transporting, and refining 20% more fuel? What do you suppose is the impact of a single extra million-acre wildfire on both?

How do either of those situations fit into the conversation about someone intentionally deleting the emission systems on their diesel? Fuel demand will increase over time simply due to the population growth and wildfires are going to happen no matter what. At any rate, I have more or less exhausted my thoughts on the matter.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Won’t void the warranty?

Likely, unless removed before taking it in for warranty work.

 

[JLURD]

How do either of those situations fit into the conversation about someone intentionally deleting the emission systems on their diesel? Fuel demand will increase over time simply due to the population growth and wildfires are going to happen no matter what. At any rate, I have more or less exhausted my thoughts on the matter.

You must burn more fuel and increase CO2 production significantly to have your decreased NOx and particulate. You must create more NOx and particulate to procure that extra fuel, and the CO2 production warms the planet yielding more fires...aka more NOx and particulate. None of these factors are accounted for by simple-minded folks at the EPA, nor most of the general public who pretend the EPA is the authority on environmental stewardship.

 

[GARRIGA]

Likely, unless removed before taking it in for warranty work.

There lies the rub

 

[cold gas]

I have a 2011 JKU that's fairly modded on 41.5" tires. Even with a supercharger its a real dog on the road but works great off road in 4 low, but really desperately needs more power and torque to be a nice driver. So really its just used off road because of this, maybe has 7K miles on it now and gets trailered to Moab annually. So I either drop 30K on a motor swap or buy a new one with a diesel and mod it up to get what I want out of a Jeep. Off road ability and able to cruise down the freeway at 75mph and not be downshifting all the time. Then maybe I can drive to Moab instead of trailering next year. Maybe who knows what it will drive like once its lifted and on 40's which is the plan for new one. Not huge but sure needs the power and torque vs a gasser.
I am confident in being able to delete all the emissions garbage and ya whatever they will probably not give me driveline warranty on it and I can live with that. I have not been keeping up to date on tuners / EPA but in Canada nobody cares if you delete your truck where I live. We all appreciate the extra 5mpg and motor that lasts a lot longer.
I think a lot of people do not care about fuel efficiency but want the factory installed motor that has enough power to turn bigger tires / lifted brick though the air with relative ease and do not care one bit about how much it is at the pumps or service garage. Just MHO

 

[ldstruckn]

diesel is cheaper than 87 here in Cheyenne and northern colorado maverick's as of last week when i last looked. I need forced induction to have any ability to keep up with traffic on the interstates up here at altitude. I live at 4900ft and work at 6100ft and recreate between 7000 and 14000 ft. atmospheric volumetric loss makes my naturally aspirated v6 a dog.

 

[roll]

I don't give a crap about cost annalist. The real reason why I ordered a diesel is because, I want one.

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