Quirks not addressed in User Guide

digitalbliss

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Tell me , @Rahneld do you like Tool? because your posts remind me a lot of the first few lines of their song "Eulogy".

You still provide no proof. No case law. No articles. No nothing.
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Rahneld

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I gather from your answer that you are not a lawyer or you have understood why I asked the question - I was trying to help you avoid legal troubles.

“... it is generally illegal for a non-lawyer or unlicensed attorney to offer legal advice ...” - findlaw.com
Then lets say my advice was legal and leave it at that, consistent I might add with my responsibilities as a member https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/help/terms

;)

Two people are smart to confer with lawyer specialists: non-lawyers who think their case out of a general attorney's league and lawyer's who don't specialize in a field and need a consult. ;)

If I wasn't a lawyer my advice was to go with what's in the owner's manual.

Someone else once said that: https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/sunrider-position-pointless.30957/page-11#post-718045

Chances are these folks weren't attornies, just guided by them,

If people do, and things go sideways, they'll be litigating FCA, not me civilly. Lawyer or not, criminal agencies are far more concerned with non-lawyers who dispense bad advise, legal or not.
Tell me , @Rahneld do you like Tool? because your posts remind me a lot of the first few lines of their song "Eulogy".

You still provide no proof. No case law. No articles. No nothing.
So I guess my links to McDonalds v Liebeck wasn't a good enough example of how, given the true facts of this case, and how it was ultimately settle for nonsense value, demonstrates recent lack of awards in tort liablity, even when a manufacturer not only ignores safety claims by its customers that their coffee is too hot, but exacerbates the problem by not being willing to even pay Liebeck's relatively minuscule medical expenses--likely with an NDA (non disclosure agreement): all she asked for initially.

Lets contrast that with FCA and their guidance on operating the soft top in Sunrider mode. Groups of people are not reporting flying soft windows when keeping them in while the Soft top's in Sunrider mode. Evidence: you'd hear about it here. The supplement's disclaimer tells you to resolve any differences in its guidance with the Owner's Manual by following the Owner's Manual. And yet it was your contention initially that following only the supplement's guidance, not the disclaimer in the supplement (i.e. not following the supplement--doing your own thing) puts you on equal legal footing with following the Owner's Manual and is "just as right."

Read a primer about disclaimers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclaimer not the first time I've provided it here for someone who claims he's been shown nothing in the way of cases or links.

Then, when you seemed to recognize your argument lost traction, focus switched to, ostensibly: "well you're not right either."

You want case law. That costs money. All while you provide none of your own. Nothing. Show me examples of people who collected damages beyond nuisance value when instructions in a supplement with the aforementioned disclaimer, whose guidance differed from the Owner's Manual, was followed, and things went sideways, and more than nuisance reward was won.

My evidence: Wranglers, thank goodness, don't cost me $400K as I pay for the damages people incur not "RTFMing" (read the __ manual.)

People: your best change of collecting damages you deserve is following a manufacturer's instructions when things go sideways and God forbid, injury results. It allows focus to be on the product and/or its instructions, rather than how you went off and did your own thing (which can happen when you don't respect the supplement's disclaimer) and how companies can't be responsible for situations in which owners don't follow instructions. I lose no sleep suggesting things consistent with FCA's own advice on the forum.

Find me posts here @digitalbliss where FCA has said, 'hey, supplements to the owner's manual with disclaimers to refer to that owner's manual, where supplement disagrees with owner's manual: follow either one's instructions. Get hurt and we'll come to your house with a wad of cash.'

Really, enough. You seem pissed off that you were shown that in the metaphorical game of rock, paper, scissors, that following the owner's manual is "scissors" and following a dissenting supplement with disclaimers to the owner's manual is "paper." And your play has been to now attack the quality of my "scissors."

Be content in believing you've made your point that I haven't established my case in a forum, not a court of law, all while you've provided nothing of that you seek to refute it as I've asked of you.

Absence of evidence , if you think it the case here, and it's not, isn't evidence of absence on my part. Provide me with evidence of absence or stop--and until you do, know that your ability to litigate, much that I hope you won't face such damages and that I don't believe them likely, (I've said how I've driven in Sunrider mode with soft windows in) will be enhanced if you follow all of FCA's rules, including disclaimers, if things go sideways and you, God forbid, get injured and/or injure others.
 

digitalbliss

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Nice try at trying to deflect @Rahneld . If you can't provide evidence to back up your claims, make a lengthy statement about how everyone else must provide proof that you are wrong instead. Very political of you! That would be a much easier task if you hadn't already refered to existing case as the basis of your argument. Your claim is that the owners manual is the end all be all. Even if the manufacturer is currently and consistently producing many other documents (quick reference guides, supplemental manuals, operational videos, etc..). You are making statements as if it's a fact, yet you provide no proof. I on the other hand, am saying that I think it would be hard to lose a case when you are following directions from many of FCAs produced documents.
 

Rahneld

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Nice try at trying to deflect @Rahneld . If you can't provide evidence to back up your claims, make a lengthy statement about how everyone else must provide proof that you are wrong instead. Very political of you! That would be a much easier task if you hadn't already refered to existing case as the basis of your argument. Your claim is that the owners manual is the end all be all. Even if the manufacturer is currently and consistently producing many other documents (quick reference guides, supplemental manuals, operational videos, etc..). You are making statements as if it's a fact, yet you provide no proof. I on the other hand, am saying that I think it would be hard to lose a case when you are following directions from many of FCAs produced documents.
I think we're at an empass because you don't get it.

I have provided evidence, more than you who asks it of me and provides none to support his claims.

I don't say how everyone else must provide me with proof, just you, holding you to the same standard you hold me to. Fairness: what a bummer. Go back and reread.

Even if the manufacturer is currently and consistently producing many other documents
Sigh, we've been down this road many times already....you forget the important part that follows your statement above --"....each and everyone one of which, regardless of media form, manages to contain disclaimers to go to the owner's manual for complete details."

Quick @digitalbliss: go find the video, for the "sixth time," that Bestop, not FCA produced on using the soft top. It's not relevant. Soft tops are purchased and their replacement parts provided by FCA, by legal design. Bestop, right now just happens to make the top for them, which again by legal design you buy from FCA/MOPAR. Go find the FCA picture of a JL in Sunrider mode with soft windows in that's both parked and off road: the same place it's likely your vehicle insurance doesn't cover barring policies and indications regarding off road use.

You are making statements as if it's a fact.
Here's fact. Maybe this will sink in. Don't follow the manufacturer's instructions and hurt yourself and your claim against them will be enormously legally diluted. The manufacturer told you to double check the owner's manual and use its guidance should it differ from the supplemental mediums you've provided.

I on the other hand, am saying that I think it would be hard to lose a case when you are following directions from many of FCAs produced documents.
Let me tell you how you how that plays in court. You're called to the witness stand. Your asked if you followed the supplement. You answer yes. You're then asked to read the disclaimer on the bottom and asked if you followed that. If you didn't, you didn't follow the supplement you to claim to have followed. If you did, and found the owner's manual guidance differing then your actions were different from the guidance in either the owner's manual or supplement: meaning you went and did "your own thing" and are solely responsible for your choices.

Winning a case against FCA following their rules to the letter will be hard enough. If you want to think that, effectively, doing your own thing (by not following a supplement's disclaimer) grants you no less leverage think what you want.

People, I hope nobody gets hurt using their Wrangler. I hope those that do were following the manual so as to increase your chances of morally holding other legal entities in part responsible. Personally, I see little risk in keeping soft top windows in (supplement) or out (owner's manual) with the soft top's in Sunrider mode.

But if anyone like @digitalbliss thinks

  • Following a dissenting supplement's guidance to that in the owner's manual, only where they see fit, and ignoring the guidance on it to go to the owner's manual for guidance should it contain dissenting guidance: the very supplement they claim they clinged to as what they relied on (conveniently ignoring the disclaimer)..
  • Thinks that their legal footing against FCA is anywhere near on par with the already Hurclean task of fighting FCA if they got hurt or hurt others actually following the Owner's Manual

is mistaken, and foolish for adopting such "the law ought to be what I want or wish it to be" attitudes. And that juries will award damages based on emotion over the law charged to them by the court. If you were the manufacturer you would want the judge to charge the jury with this: "if the plaintiff didn't follow the owner's manual you must find for the defendant." You as consumer would want this. And it is, thankfully, the most likely scenario.

The difference between us @digitalbliss. I seek for people to know the implications of not following manufacturer guidance, which may be next to nothing or substantial depending on the circumstances. You seek to prove me wrong or my arguments unsubstantiated, as if the advice I offer will increase their risk or is irresponsible, or no better/comparable to your claim that picking and choosing what portions of a supplement you like, while ignoring others presents equal risk to a manufacturer. It doesn't.

Reason would suggest that you undertake a better pastime. If this still isn't enough, draw what you'd say to a jury as closing arguments and I'll draw mine.
 
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digitalbliss

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@Rahneld but I'm following manufacturer guidance. The supplemental guide and newly released operational video that are both provided by FCA.
 

Durango

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I get the message "There are no manuals available for this vehicle".
I wonder if anyone who can correct or affect this is reading any of this (or did they get lost in the legal arguments of some members on this thread?), or are we who got a message we can't order a hardcopy manual just SOL?
I have a Case Mgr on another issue but in our communication I have been throwing this issue in too - so far just trying their suggestions without luck.
 

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I wonder if anyone who can correct or affect this is reading any of this (or did they get lost in the legal arguments of some members on this thread?), or are we who got a message we can't order a hardcopy manual just SOL?
I have a Case Mgr on another issue but in our communication I have been throwing this issue in too - so far just trying their suggestions without luck.
I sent a PM to @JeepCares and they ordered a copy for me. The system would not allow me to order it no matter what browser I tried--it kept saying that no manual exists for my JLUR.
 

cram501

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I wonder if anyone who can correct or affect this is reading any of this (or did they get lost in the legal arguments of some members on this thread?), or are we who got a message we can't order a hardcopy manual just SOL?
I have a Case Mgr on another issue but in our communication I have been throwing this issue in too - so far just trying their suggestions without luck.
When I got my 2019, I couldn't order a manual either. I got on Jeep chat and they ordered it for me.
 

apb

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Durango

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I sent a PM to @JeepCares and they ordered a copy for me. The system would not allow me to order it no matter what browser I tried--it kept saying that no manual exists for my JLUR.
How do you send a private message to JeepCares? I tried using the PM option on this forum, and I get an error message saying it can't be done...
 
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