Picking up new Jl on Wednesday... buying exp. = F

RocketScientist

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I was originally going to special order. Wanted a minimally optioned Sahara, manual, heated seats, hardtop. Tough to find. Ended up with:

Ocean Blue
6 spd manual
Dual top
All terrain tires
Cold weather group
Anti-spin axle

Been in the research process for several weeks.

I avoid setting foot in a dealership until ready and have researched thoroughly.

Found the above locally, but not closest, Test drove, and was sold. Hadn’t driven a manual in years - But no problems. Only one stall.

Sales process - ugly. Should have walked. I’m getting old - have played this game for 30 years. The game is old.

Saleswoman starts with

“What kind of features are you looking for in a car”

“Where do you want to be payment wise?”

OMG!

I was close to walking many times, knowing I had a good price for a special order (closes Friday, right). The instant gratification thing was all that kept me there.

All I need is the bottom line out-the-door price and price for my trade. Two numbers. Simple. Right. That’s all thst should matter. Nope we play the crazy quad-chart magic marker game and out comes the dealer bill-of-laiding with there cost... Ended up a little under invoice and low end of my acceptable range for trade. To get 4-5% under invoice, not happening. Not worth the stress.

Why-oh-why fo we still buy cars ths way? Rhetorical. I know most of the stupid reasons, manufacturers are not allowed to sell direct, etc.

I also do believe, people still walk in off the street having done no research and take everything the salesperson says as true, all the numbers they show them, etc, lots of people. Two sitting next to me in showroom.


Oh well, enough of that! I digress.

So looking forward to having fun driving again!
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Wrangles

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I was originally going to special order. Wanted a minimally optioned Sahara, manual, heated seats, hardtop. Tough to find. Ended up with:

Ocean Blue
6 spd manual
Dual top
All terrain tires
Cold weather group
Anti-spin axle

Been in the research process for several weeks.

I avoid setting foot in a dealership until ready and have researched thoroughly.

Found the above locally, but not closest, Test drove, and was sold. Hadn’t driven a manual in years - But no problems. Only one stall.

Sales process - ugly. Should have walked. I’m getting old - have played this game for 30 years. The game is old.

Saleswoman starts with

“What kind of features are you looking for in a car”

“Where do you want to be payment wise?”

OMG!

I was close to walking many times, knowing I had a good price for a special order (closes Friday, right). The instant gratification thing was all that kept me there.

All I need is the bottom line out-the-door price and price for my trade. Two numbers. Simple. Right. That’s all thst should matter. Nope we play the crazy quad-chart magic marker game and out comes the dealer bill-of-laiding with there cost... Ended up a little under invoice and low end of my acceptable range for trade. To get 4-5% under invoice, not happening. Not worth the stress.

Why-oh-why fo we still buy cars ths way? Rhetorical. I know most of the stupid reasons, manufacturers are not allowed to sell direct, etc.

I also do believe, people still walk in off the street having done no research and take everything the salesperson says as true, all the numbers they show them, etc, lots of people. Two sitting next to me in showroom.


Oh well, enough of that! I digress.

So looking forward to having fun driving again!
I wouldn’t look back now. Time is money and convenience costs. Enjoy your new Wrangler!
 

RubiSc0tt

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100% agree. I love cars, hate the car buying process. I wish it could be streamlined. Let me input what I want, give me the lowest possible price, I'll give you the money and you roll the vehicle out of the garage or off the truck- just like a vending machine or Amazon. Overwhelming majority of sales people are just time wasters and know nothing about the vehicles other than what prices they're not allowed to do and what features are available. It's exhausting and frustrating.

Stop.

Stop talking monthly payments, especially if I'm talking total amount.

Stop talking with the tic tac toe boxes sales magic.

Stop asking me how much I owe on my trade- that's none of your business. I know what it's worth via KBB or Truecar.

Stop telling me how great X feature is and how it's only $X more.

Stop suggesting things I don't want ("Oh we could get you into a nice _____ for that range", ).

Stop with the mysterious "fees" that just pad profit.

Just. Stop.

I know how the business works. I know you need to make 80% of money off of maintenance plans to keep the lights on. I get you need to pay your employees and bills and new vehicles aren't "free".

But for the love of all that is holy and some things that aren't. STOP. WASTING. MY. TIME.

TRANSPARENCY, PLEASE.

</rant over>
I've only dealt with 2 decent sales people in my life: One who did exactly what we wanted for my wife's car, and the guy I'm talking to about possibly ordering a JLUR. The rest were totally awful. One guy even said he was going to "talk to his manager". We watched him walk down the hall, do a full 360 degree turn, and come back and tell me "the boss said no".
 

Saejin

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Agree, the days of selling cars this way wil soon come to end as more and more buyers get fed up with it. However, like you said there are still some people who walk in off the street and believe everything the dealer says. The law/rule that prohibits manufacturers from selling direct is outdated and needs to be revoked.

Had a good experience when buying my Audi a few years ago. Negotiated the entire deal over email including the amount for my trade which they had not seen. This tells me dealers don’t even need to see your trade in, they just tell you that so you will come in to the dealer which is their way of getting you on their terms. I mean in 2015 they offered me $32K on a a slightly modified 2013 JKU. Ended up selling the Audi to fund my Jeep.

For my JLUR I didn’t even know about this forum, but got 4% off invoice for my order. It was their standard price for orders. Not sure how things would have gone on a deal for something on the lot.

Worst experience so far are at Honda and Acura dealerships. Acura is by far the worst and I will never buy another one again from
a dealer regardless of what new models they come out with. Same with Ford and their dealerships. Bad experience 20 years ago and I haven’t been to a Ford dealership since and never will.
 

NOMAD-0311

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Surprisingly, the best and easiest car buying experience I have ever had was our recent Raptor purchase in Puerto Rico.

We looked at it, he gave us a price, we walked out and talked about it. Went back in and said this is what we will pay and will purchase now. He went to ask the manager and he agreed. The worst part was waiting for them to get it all prepped. They didn’t try to sell us anything additional. No added fees or anything.

I know normally Raptors sell for about $5K over MSRP in the states plus taxes and fees, so getting one loaded out the door at MSRP was a great deal on one.
 
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RocketScientist

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Yes, I agree the days of selling the old way are numbered. Showrooms should be just that. Almost all the salespeople have no clue what they are selling. Come back in a year and see if they are still there. Sucks to be salesperson, though I suspect some enjoy.

Honestly, if this person had come out and said “ya know they put that true-coat on at the factory....”. I would not have been surprised.

Additionally, I secured my own financing. They acted like I was the first person to ever “attempt” this. “That is just not how we do it here”. That was the first almost-get-up-and-leave point. Mostly because they were clouding the price with this bs.

I called yesterday to tell them I was all set, and awaiting the funds to be sent (I deal with my bank online and they’ll send the check 2-3 days). Salesperson was off, left message with manager. Of course that was never relayed. Standard operating procedure at every dealership... There was never any doubt I would secure financing. I’m not just some dumb kid tire kicker. No offense to any dumb kid tire kickers.

So salesperson keeps calling today but not leaving message. Number was out of area code, so I shrugged it off. Finally they left message “wondering what status is”

I called them back, gave update, because they never got message. They wanted to know if I could come in right now. Obviously, listened to nothing I said.

Initially, the sales manager actually gave me the spiel of “need to get this off my books today, only wAy I can give you this price”. And “my salesperson needs to put food on their table.”

What exactly is the purpose of salesperson, anyway? They know nothing and have no power. Can only approve above MSRP. Like response above: STOP.WASTING.MY.TIME.

Next episode: the F&I office. Should be 10 minutes tops. Sign here. and here.And here. Enjoy your vehicle! It won’t be. It will be another hour of hell. Or more.

Also this dealership was recommended by this or the other forum as “ great to deal with”. What I did not realze was, though they were a small mom and pop, they were just recently bought out by a mega-dealer - one I avoided. My-oh-my how things have changed
 

phatjoe

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Stop.

Stop talking monthly payments, especially if I'm talking total amount.

Stop talking with the tic tac toe boxes sales magic.

Stop asking me how much I owe on my trade- that's none of your business. I know what it's worth via KBB or Truecar.

Stop telling me how great X feature is and how it's only $X more.

Stop suggesting things I don't want ("Oh we could get you into a nice _____ for that range", ).

Stop with the mysterious "fees" that just pad profit.

Just. Stop.
To add to the list....:)

"We are losing money on this deal."
"If you agree to our negotiated price, initial here"
 

crazychile

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I bought a JK 1.5 years ago. The process went something like this:
Filled out the online dealer form with exactly what I was looking for. This went out to about 6-8 dealers within a couple hours of me. My buddy who is a tough negotiator told me to forget about getting much of a deal on a Wrangler. So I figured if I could get something below invoice I was probably doing pretty well. I already knew which dealer I wanted to buy from so I gave him my best quote and initially he said no. A couple days later he emails me and said he'd do the deal if I hadn't bought yet. I ordered the Jeep, and everything went well the rest of the way. I probably ended up between 1-2% below invoice.

I kept in touch with my salesman since my wife wanted a JLU Wrangler in yellow. I did all the legwork trying to figure out when yellow would be available, and started shopping early based on a different color. This time the goal was 5% below invoice. I started with a known cheap dealer and got a quick quote at 5% below invoice, but wanted to let my local dealer get the biz. They wouldn't do the cheap price but went down to 3% below invoice. There was still about $700 difference between the dealers but I didn't really want to spend 8 hours round trip driving to the cheap dealer. I decided I might have to pay the additional $700 to not waste an entire Saturday driving. But being a cheap bastard I thought I'd explore another option.

There was another local dealer I had purposely avoided. These guys own 80% of the dealerships in the local market and have had a reputation for being shady as hell ever since the 90's. It was easy to find a dozen people willing to tell you their horror stories. Yet as you drive the streets about every other vehicle had their dealer logo on the bumper. These guys obviously were still doing volume despite the reputation. So for the hell of it I sent the dealer the online form as I had done to the others. After a little back and forth to clarify the details, I had a local quote for 5% below invoice. I made sure the fees were the same as the others, etc. I was still on guard expecting for the screw attempt to happen somewhere.

I set up a time for my wife to do the test drive and put down some $$ to get it ordered. I told my wife that if the dealer tried to pull any BS, things might get ugly, or we could walk. I still didn't trust these guys. Well, the whole thing went very smoothly. Not just smoothly, but almost enjoyable. We got to the dealership a few minutes early and the Jeep was out front unlocked and we had a chance to do a walkaround. No one hassled us. Went inside to find the guy and he was ready with keys. The drive went well, he didn't try anything and was a pretty nice young guy. Before we got back I thought I might preemptively diffuse any Sales or Finance Manager hokum, by telling the kid that we had always avoided the dealership because of their horrible reputation for being shady. Instead of trying to argue and justify, he immediately responded, "We've been trying to fix that". So we get back to the dealership, I never have to deal with any manager, all the numbers stay the same as discussed, and there was zero attempt to up sell. Ten minutes later we have deposit down, and the order was placed.

Now I still have to wait and see what happens when the Jeep comes in, but right now I'm thinking I either got lucky with a good salesperson, or this dealership really is trying to get their sh!t together.

But a few pieces of advice...
1. Do your research and know what you want to pay.
2. If you're trading in, know what your trade is really worth.
3. Have the deal worked out before you ever set foot on the lot.
4. Have the financing worked out ahead also. Your local bank or credit union will usually have a better rate and it takes away the dealers temptation to try and gouge you through creative financing.
 

FrankieFJL

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Yes, I agree the days of selling the old way are numbered. Showrooms should be just that. Almost all the salespeople have no clue what they are selling. Come back in a year and see if they are still there. Sucks to be salesperson, though I suspect some enjoy.

Honestly, if this person had come out and said “ya know they put that true-coat on at the factory....”. I would not have been surprised.

Additionally, I secured my own financing. They acted like I was the first person to ever “attempt” this. “That is just not how we do it here”. That was the first almost-get-up-and-leave point. Mostly because they were clouding the price with this bs.

I called yesterday to tell them I was all set, and awaiting the funds to be sent (I deal with my bank online and they’ll send the check 2-3 days). Salesperson was off, left message with manager. Of course that was never relayed. Standard operating procedure at every dealership... There was never any doubt I would secure financing. I’m not just some dumb kid tire kicker. No offense to any dumb kid tire kickers.

So salesperson keeps calling today but not leaving message. Number was out of area code, so I shrugged it off. Finally they left message “wondering what status is”

I called them back, gave update, because they never got message. They wanted to know if I could come in right now. Obviously, listened to nothing I said.

Initially, the sales manager actually gave me the spiel of “need to get this off my books today, only wAy I can give you this price”. And “my salesperson needs to put food on their table.”

What exactly is the purpose of salesperson, anyway? They know nothing and have no power. Can only approve above MSRP. Like response above: STOP.WASTING.MY.TIME.

Next episode: the F&I office. Should be 10 minutes tops. Sign here. and here.And here. Enjoy your vehicle! It won’t be. It will be another hour of hell. Or more.

Also this dealership was recommended by this or the other forum as “ great to deal with”. What I did not realze was, though they were a small mom and pop, they were just recently bought out by a mega-dealer - one I avoided. My-oh-my how things have changed
So who was the dealer? I would not be surprised if they are the same one I dealt with. Oh and one month after my "deal" both the sales manager and my salesperson were no longer there.
 
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RocketScientist

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I’ll post the dealer name shortly (after I pick up) Ironically, get a phone call from a third dealer (what caller id shows) But the message is actually from yet a fourth dealer. A follow up. And now I see all are owned by the same group.

One or two things is going to happen at this particular dealer:

1. They close it. There is no place to park, tiny showroom, horribly tight lot. Like I said “mom and pop”. And that’s fine if it truly is a mom and pop. It isn’t anymore

2. Or they will expand footprint. Unlikely as there is nowhere to go!

BTW salesperson was like 19 or 20. Sales manager was like 25. The person recommended to me by this forum is no longer there. Had been there for a while.
...
Here’s another “foreign concept” dealers can’t seem to grasp. I’ve dealt with my bank for decades. They are the biggest credit union in the country. That is not hyperbole. They hold the notes on probably hundreds of thousands of cars.
When you trade in a car they hold the note for, THEY pay off the note, add those funds to the difference from selling price of new car and what you are getting for your trade, and issue a new note to you for that total. They issue a draft for the price difference between new an trade. Dealer geta trade with lien paid off. The dealer is then to call cu during F&i and confirm sale and provide address title is to be sent to (BTW most titles are held - electronically - by a third party. Bank tells them to be printed and issued )

1. Dealer, unless they are in certain areas, always is like “Whoa!!! That won’t work for us”
The ding-dongs actually get title faster this way. I always say “no problem, just refund my deposit and I’ll be on my way”. Seems to magically be ok after that.

2. CU deals in “drafts”. This means a little longer to get their money. They’ve told me “we’ve gotten stiffed some times”. As all dealers say the same thing, I believe it has more to do with not being able to move money around quickly. Not my problem. And I always say, “call me when it has cleared”. While it is another trip, I don’t mind if all paperwork is done, and i just return to swap vehicles. Or I can walk out. Again, magically, everything is all right after that threat.

This all counters the first thing they said to me “we want to make this experience, as easy as possible for you”. No, they don’t. Easy as possible for the, them. Buy based on monthly payment at or above MSRP, take any vehicle they put in front of you, use their finance, and buy all up-sells! Easy!
 

tnjrb

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Here’s another “foreign concept” dealers can’t seem to grasp. I’ve dealt with my bank for decades. They are the biggest credit union in the country. That is not hyperbole. They hold the notes on probably hundreds of thousands of cars.
When you trade in a car they hold the note for, THEY pay off the note, add those funds to the difference from selling price of new car and what you are getting for your trade, and issue a new note to you for that total. They issue a draft for the price difference between new an trade. Dealer geta trade with lien paid off. The dealer is then to call cu during F&i and confirm sale and provide address title is to be sent to (BTW most titles are held - electronically - by a third party. Bank tells them to be printed and issued )

1. Dealer, unless they are in certain areas, always is like “Whoa!!! That won’t work for us”
The ding-dongs actually get title faster this way. I always say “no problem, just refund my deposit and I’ll be on my way”. Seems to magically be ok after that.

2. CU deals in “drafts”. This means a little longer to get their money. They’ve told me “we’ve gotten stiffed some times”. As all dealers say the same thing, I believe it has more to do with not being able to move money around quickly. Not my problem. And I always say, “call me when it has cleared”. While it is another trip, I don’t mind if all paperwork is done, and i just return to swap vehicles. Or I can walk out. Again, magically, everything is all right after that threat.

This all counters the first thing they said to me “we want to make this experience, as easy as possible for you”. No, they don’t. Easy as possible for the, them. Buy based on monthly payment at or above MSRP, take any vehicle they put in front of you, use their finance, and buy all up-sells! Easy!
Sounds like you use NFU, like I do. I've had some dealers do the same as you and try to balk at their process...ironically it was the bigger ones, like AutoNation, who I am sure deals with NFU all the time. The smaller ones tend to understand and be ok. It's sad that for the most part, anything a car dealer tells me, I feel like is them trying to scam me somehow...just like when they act like they've never seen this NFU process...
 

NOMAD-0311

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I always use USAA for financing and they have a price that you will not pay more than and give you an interest rate discount for using a dealer in their “network”. Makes it easy cause I can walk in with a check for the amount and be done!

What I really hate is when you tel a dealer you don’t want any of their add ons and they still send someone in to talk to you about stuff. I literally got in a fight with the sales people for wanting to charge me $70 for using nitrogen in the tires! Told em I didn’t ask for it and they can let it out and fill it with air. Agreed on a price not gonna be nickel and dimed with stupid stuff I didn’t ask for
 
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RocketScientist

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Responses - All good stuff....

tnjrb - yes NFCU. I've dealt with them for years. Easy, simple, straight forward. Can do everything online. All of my banking in one place. They are almost always the best deal.

And exactly, anything, yes anything that comes out of the salesperson or manager's mouth is an untruth. All of it serves only one purpose: to separate you from as much of your money as possible. That's my experience and the experience of millions of others. Sure there are few good guys and gals out there, but I haven't run into them yet. They have no brand-loyalty. They have no dealership-loyalty, and won't be there if and when you come back to buy another vehicle.

So, I've got the "draft" in today's mail, and I've given the salesperson a headsup. Been hounding me for last 3 days. I told them it would take 2-3 days to get funds from NFCU. I mean for anyone who has used this CU, I'm not describing anything new here. And probably similar to anyone who uses their own financing. And I told them "I have no way of checking mail from my office, I am 30 miles away, I check mail each evening when I get home."

And like I said, they already gave me an indication a draft would take longer or be a problem. Like I'm passing them a forgery. They have to call the actual bank, anyway. It's all about instantly getting their money. But... "Ok. Not my problem. Figure it out. You are dealing with the largest CU in the country. They've have held more notes on more cars than this dealership will ever hope to sell in a lifetime!" Or I walk. And I will get my CC deposit back....

And then they will have to deal with the astonshing fact that NFCU paid the note on the trade-in already and they are only getting a draft for the difference (plus the paid-off car, of course). This will rock their world. It often does. Why would NFCU or any other bank (that holds both notes) write a check for funds, pay the dealer, only to have them pay them back. Makes no sense.

And then if all is well, I get to sit in F&I office for what, 1-2 hours. Total BS. I honestly am not sure if I can go throught that again. I've probably done this 25 times between me and my wife's cars over the years. And it is always the same. I may have to start by being curt, "I'm here to sign the RMV, the bill of sale, odometer statements, that's it. I'm signing those first, show me anything else and I am walking" I'll make sure to hold on to my keys until the end. Seriously. I don't have time for this. It's total BS. It literally should be a 10-minute deal to sign the papers and be on my way. Anything to make it easy for the customer, right? Righhhhht
 
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