Scottroxxx
Well-Known Member
We have the cheesy stuff now too, I'm still coming for the good stuff with my doors off AND my tires will stick out past my fenders too!Not anymore! We can have all the fireworks we want now
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We have the cheesy stuff now too, I'm still coming for the good stuff with my doors off AND my tires will stick out past my fenders too!Not anymore! We can have all the fireworks we want now
Not OEM, so they won't help you. Full or Half doors onlyWhat would be the ruling on tube doors in this situation?
Are you 100% certain on that? I believe I read that, as long as you could secure it, you could use a sheet of plywood as a door in a vehicle with a removable top.Not OEM, so they won't help you. Full or Half doors only
https://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/chapter175/s175.77.htmlAre you 100% certain on that? I believe I read that, as long as you could secure it, you could use a sheet of plywood as a door in a vehicle with a removable top.
In some states, maybe. In PA, they must be "of a type" used as OE.A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment.
I believe that semantics could be used in our favor and possibly successfully argued. The original equipment, by design, is removable and in no way necessary for operation of the vehicle. The code reads "doors of a type used", not "doors of a type provided or supplied". The door is fundamentally an accessory that may or may not be used rendering this sentence in the code moot for Jeep Wranglers.https://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/chapter175/s175.77.html
"A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment."
In some states, maybe. In PA, they must be "of a type" used as OE.
I'm seeing a lot of people getting ticketed for this right now. I'm seeing it more and more on the PA Jeep Facebook groups, and on the much more active thread for this on a different forum. The Change.org petition got its 5000 signatures, but it seems like those who represent us in our State Government are coming up with bigger and bigger BS as to why this won't be changed.
The PA code is an inspection code not an operating code. It should only apply to PA registered vehicles.I believe that semantics could be used in our favor and possibly successfully argued. The original equipment, by design, is removable and in no way necessary for operation of the vehicle. The code reads "doors of a type used", not "doors of a type provided or supplied". The door is fundamentally an accessory that may or may not be used rendering this sentence in the code moot for Jeep Wranglers.
I know that I'm splitting hairs, but that is essentially what any ticketing officer is doing. I don't believe the intention of the code is to force Wranglers to have doors. The next line in the code nearly contradicts the line you quoted, "The doors shall open and close securely unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side." If the code is read literally then my Wrangler must have full doors on it but they don't have to even latch to anything if I have the roof off.
I don't know if anyone has tried arguing along these lines to a Judge. I'd be curious to see the response if they did.
....and I DO NOT mean to argue with you. I totally agree and support your cause. I believe this ridiculous and poorly written piece of code needs to be clarified to allow us to utilize our vehicles in a way intended by the manufacturer and allowed in 49 other states (I think it's legal everywhere else).
I totally see your thoughts, I don't see it as an argument.I believe that semantics could be used in our favor and possibly successfully argued. The original equipment, by design, is removable and in no way necessary for operation of the vehicle. The code reads "doors of a type used", not "doors of a type provided or supplied". The door is fundamentally an accessory that may or may not be used rendering this sentence in the code moot for Jeep Wranglers.
I know that I'm splitting hairs, but that is essentially what any ticketing officer is doing. I don't believe the intention of the code is to force Wranglers to have doors. The next line in the code nearly contradicts the line you quoted, "The doors shall open and close securely unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side." If the code is read literally then my Wrangler must have full doors on it but they don't have to even latch to anything if I have the roof off.
I don't know if anyone has tried arguing along these lines to a Judge. I'd be curious to see the response if they did.
....and I DO NOT mean to argue with you. I totally agree and support your cause. I believe this ridiculous and poorly written piece of code needs to be clarified to allow us to utilize our vehicles in a way intended by the manufacturer and allowed in 49 other states (I think it's legal everywhere else).
This means they must be installed on the Jeep.A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment.
They need to open in the event of an emergency, such as fire or flood, so that the passengers can get out, and they need to close securely so that they're not flapping in the wind.The doors shall open and close securely...
This is just stating that your doors do not need to open (or close, but I believe that is not the intention) if you have no top or sides, because now you have a way out of the vehicle in the event of an emergency....unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side.
Correct. This is an inspection code, only applicable to Jeeps registered in PA. However, that hasn't stopped out-of-state Jeeps being pulled over, and I believe at least 1 has been ticketed (a New York Jeep). They should have no problem fighting it in that case.The PA code is an inspection code not an operating code. It should only apply to PA registered vehicles.
The code also specifies something about "manufactured with a roof"..... jeep tops are accessories, not manufactured as part of the vehicle.
I see your point. But another thing against it is that the owner's manual states that operation of the vehicle without doors is for off-road purposes only. That one is killing us!BeeLDub...as for your fist reply, I find it interesting. I still would be interested to hear the Judge's explanation. I still contend that the doors are an accessory. They are designed to come off - my owners manual tells me how to remove them AND still operate the vehicle. In that sense they are no different than a floor mat.
Agreed, but the pamphlet is to help clarify the codes. PennDOT is in charge of the PA Vehicle Codes, so when official clarification is needed, it goes to PennDOT.As for the second reply...that is simply a PennDOT pamplet. It's not code. I can tell you that PennDOT has it's own agenda and will print their own interpretation of the code. If the officer was going to ticket me, I'd be happy to explain that to him. If he wasn't - then I'd keep my mouth shut and move along ;-)
We have tried so many things! Best thing we can do right now is to get as many people as possible to reach out to their Reps and ask for their support.Anyhow, it seems like all avenues have been taken and I am going to lose my argument at the end of the day. I know plenty of cops and they are mostly good guys. Unfortunately, there are a few jerks out there that would be happy to ruin someone's day over a petty interpretation of PA Vehicle Code. Unless a thousand jeeps block I-80 out in Harrisburg for 4 hours I just don't see our legislators caring enough to get this re-written.
Did he just give you a warning, or an actual citation?I appreciate the insight. I was pulled over this morning in Eagleville, Lower Providence Township Police, and given a warning for being doorless. I've driven almost 8 years every summer doorless and my first time pulled over. He was adamant about it being illegal even though I have the mirrors. Keep us posted and I will throw my support behind any action going. Thanks