One more reason auto is vastly superior to stick in crawling

[mgroeger]

I'm a bit confused, what's the sin of stalling?

Sooo ... a 4lo trail in 4hi will be difficult with a manual, got cha!

I probably have around 400,000 miles in manuals, I'm pretty used to them. Never replaced a clutch either. Simply prefer them. Auto "better?" Maybe easier, I disagree on better.

Porsche PDK is the only auto I've liked. 2014 SRT Grand Cherokee, 2016 Hellcat, both sold because BORING! Sold the Cayman for a few reasons, mostly because used prices skyrocketed so I lost very little for 30,000 miles I put on it. Also, I plan to go to something more track focused, likely a GT car as my retirement gift to myself, in another year.

The "sin" of stalling is more of a concern when you're sitting at 25 degrees off camber and 20 degrees pointed up the obstacle. It's not very fun to stall in the situation. That's more of what we are really talking about here (at least I am).

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[word302]

The "sin" of stalling is more of a concern when you're sitting at 25 degrees off camber and 20 degrees pointed up the obstacle. It's not very fun to stall in the situation. That's more of what we are really talking about here (at least I am).

Being able to start in gear makes it pretty much a non-issue.

 

[mgroeger]

Being able to start in gear makes it pretty much a non-issue.

There's still an added complexity on obstacles when using stick.

 

[jeepdabest]

Sounds like operator error.

 

[word302]

There's still an added complexity on obstacles when using stick.

Of course. That’s something we accept. I’d argue that the lower crawl ratio makes navigating obstacles easier.

 

[MrMischief]

coming out in 2 Hi on a difficult trail, the AT has a significant advantage over the MT.

I'd say it probably depends on the trail. I'd strongly prefer a manual in 2 hi coming down red cone than my JL automatic in 2 hi because of the more aggressive engine braking the manual transmission would allow and because for some reason Jeep felt HDC shouldn't be available in 2hi.

I'd also argue that for clearing big rocks or climbs, with a manual you can stop, rev the piss out of it, pop or aggressively slip the clutch to move a few feet then stop and do it again. Where an automatic just might lean on the torque converter and not move. Yes one is probably more rough on equipment and trail than the other, but I'm assuming if you're coming out of a rough trail in 2hi it's due to something being broken and no proper recovery method is available.

why do I keep engaging in this thread? it makes me feel dirty

 

[Old Jeeper]

Larry,

Totally 100% agree. 'Vastly superior' is way too subjective. My perspective in this debate is not very much out of line with yours. When off-road I'm almost always exclusively in AutoStick 'M' (manual mode). I don't like the computers deciding what gear to select nearly anywhere on trail. So I don't let it. I row the gears manually just like you do.

My point however is that what makes this environment so much more advantageous is the swiftness in achieving the next gear in order to continue to apply torque. My feet are both free to throttle and brake (even simultaneously) for better traction control rather than clutching.

The hundreds of milliseconds (a fraction of a second) to shift is what makes the nearly continuous application of torque more efficient and desirable. Especially in tricky low momentum, difficult situations. Not stalling and losing even the smallest amount of inertial advantage is what really matters (to me).

I get that riding and feathering the clutch may be thrilling and that's exactly what some may crave as an adrenaline rush. That's great. However, in the big picture it's more about the successful navigation of the obstacle independent of the control machinations involved.

I really do appreciate that I have so much more available concentrated effort available to focus on the overall tractive effort solution rather than the additional complications and burden of clutching. Especially when the transmission control computer is so good at it.

Not needing to clutch even though I'm still manually shifting is what makes this ZF8 so damn attractive. Let me make my point clear. I love to manually control the gear selection explicitly but not needing to perform all the clutching activites in the process. The very fast smooth and never-stalling shift is what makes it 'better' but not vastly superior.

To each their own. Just don't try to dismiss this technological enhancement of gear change efficiency has having no greater value. This perspective is also being somewhat closed minded. Please don't be like others who close their eyes, pick up their marbles and run home with hurt feelings just because others clearly understand and appreciate that clutching is not an absolute requirement. Jeeping is as much fun to me as it is to you.

I'm just really enjoying doing it (manually) without the third pedal.

Jay

Good points all I will wax and wane on them..

Milliseconds: Back in my racing days (60s) there was no such thing on the 1320 as milliseconds except at Launch. At least half the races or more were won at the green light. You could cheat it if you were really good on coming off the clutch. The other trick was to find a set of taller Shocks for your car and find them in a junk yard worn out. What that was let you come off the clutch right before the went green and all the torque instead of driving your car forward it raised the nose and then it took it...time the lights

Transmission were SLOW shifters. There 2 good trans: Chrysler Torqueflight found behind the big blocks and the Caddy Hydramatic. those were about as bulletproof as the era would allow. If you saw and auto at the track in the top tiers of classes it was one of them. The rest were stick guys like myself.

I ran a Muncie Close Ration 4 sp with 4:11 gears. I had the worn-out shocks up front and I launch depending upon conditions and track was somewhere in the 6800-7200 rpm zone. If you could not shift faster than an automatic, you were a very poor driver. I have no idea how fast I could shift, but no slush-box even beat me thru the traps. I actually had other drivers that wanted to know if i had some tricks inside my trans. NO, but I did have a trick. Your most critical shift is the 1 > 2 because it came so fast after the launch. What I did was install a T handle on the stick and tighten down to firm then back out 2 complete turns. They let my grasp the T handle at a 20 degree angle to the right, so as I watch my Tach I am going to shift at 68-7000k rpm into 2nd, so I pull back and to the left HARD, never miss a shift and that is CRITICAL! As 3rd comes up I hold the T handle at the same angle and push hard forward and right. At that point in time I hitting the traps at 12.3X and 104-110 mph.

Couple of days ago a buddy stooped by and said I turned 500 mi on my C8 R you want to see what it will do.? HJELL YEA. OMG The auto inm the C8 is ming boggling and as it hits the gears your body never moves forward, you are slammed hard and harder into the seat. WHAT a car. The Tremec trans shifts at less than 100 Milliseconds, depending upon how hard its pushed.

I asked him to hit it when he left my house I live semi-rural and there are no houses on my street for a good ways. I wanted to listen to that auto-shift gears. The only I can describe it is it sounds like an explosion, it just goes BANG BANG BANG. There is not the appearance of it shifting gears, only a BANG, the rear does not squat again an again. Takes off like a rocket. It also has a Paddle shift mode, but you will never do better than the Launch-Race mode on its own. It happens in MILLI-SECONDS!!!

"riding and feathering the clutch": Don't do it, never have. A good driver does not need to feather or slip the clutch. I hear a lot of that on those 7+ trails. My clutch is engaged or not. 4:1 1st gear + 4:1 Transfer case, 4:88s the tube, you should have no need to ride and slip. What that tells me is you are in too high in the gears. That said the current Jeep offering os the V6 has good torque but its high up in the RPMs vs the old TJ 6 where 80% of your torque was down low by 2000 rpm...one of the key reasons why the TJ 6 was a rock crawlers dream.

The Take Away is times have changed and while not all autos have risen to the occasion many have: Ford 10 sp in the Superduty line, Chrysler Torqueflight and the Corvette Tremec.

Enjoyed reading your comments, they took me back to my battles on the 1320 and more. Thanks.

 

[J0E]

I'd say it probably depends on the trail. I'd strongly prefer a manual in 2 hi coming down red cone than my JL automatic in 2 hi because of the more aggressive engine braking the manual transmission would allow and because for some reason Jeep felt HDC shouldn't be available in 2hi.

I'd also argue that for clearing big rocks or climbs, with a manual you can stop, rev the piss out of it, pop or aggressively slip the clutch to move a few feet then stop and do it again. Where an automatic just might lean on the torque converter and not move. Yes one is probably more rough on equipment and trail than the other, but I'm assuming if you're coming out of a rough trail in 2hi it's due to something being broken and no proper recovery method is available.

why do I keep engaging in this thread? it makes me feel dirty

Doing a steep decent in 2 Hi is not the problem. It's coming out, where it's impossible to get out in 2 Hi and you need a pull. In some places it's difficult to get through an obstacle when you're not pulling a 2 Hi rig.

aggressively slip the clutch

AKA, smoke the clutch, something you don't need to do in a AT

more aggressive engine braking the manual transmission would allow

That's a super stretch, 2 Hi is not going to provide the compression breaking of a 4:1 xfer case and 1st gear. You've still got brakes. This is about recovery, not minimizing braking coming out.

why do I keep engaging in this thread, especially with such a weak retort. Step hill, lots of rocks to crawl over. And you think aggressively slip the clutch for several miles is better? Really?

BTW, the score is MT:1, AT:4

MT: 1st low is better compression breaking on steep declines
AT:

1. 2 Hi recovery, this thread
2. You're not limited to you driving your rig. With an auto, I can spot while my wife drives. When I broke my finger in a recovery, she drove out. I've never seen a MT guy let anyone drive his rig. That's fairly common for AT folks.
3. Heavy 38" tires & wheels (like my Nitto 38x13.5R17 on beadlocks) requires a better clutch & heavier flywheel . ( I disagree with this and should probably remove it).
4. Towing a trailer, backing over curbs, pulling over obstacles.

 

[JEEP4U]

It comes down to the man or woman in the box!

 

[J0E]

It comes down to the man or woman in the box!

But that's AT advantage. What about when the really great person in the box can't operate the rig? Like when I spot for my wife, when I broke my finger in a recovery and could drive? It's an edge case, but it happens.

 

[phageghost]

That said today auto are found in the fastest of cars. I just drove a C 8 R model and no way, no how any stick could compete with that C8 trans. On the other hand most trans are NOT built to that level of performance... I guess the JL auto is the same one used across Chrysler.

The C8 (and other top-of-the-line sports cars like Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini) use automated double-clutch transmissions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-clutch_transmission), which is more like two computer-controlled manuals working together than a standard "automatic transmission." No torque converter, no planetary gears, and practically instantaneous shifts. A different beast than what Jeep and most vehicles use. The larger Jeeps use license-built variants of the ZF 8HP transmission, which is widely regarded as one of the best standard automatic transmissions available.

 

[Old Jeeper]

The C8 (and other top-of-the-line sports cars like Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini) use automated double-clutch transmissions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-clutch_transmission), which is more like two computer-controlled manuals working together than a standard "automatic transmission." No torque converter, no planetary gears, and practically instantaneous shifts. A different beast than what Jeep and most vehicles use. The larger Jeeps use license-built variants of the ZF 8HP transmission, which is widely regarded as one of the best standard automatic transmissions available.

Good info

 

[Industrialwrench]

Doing a steep decent in 2 Hi is not the problem. It's coming out, where it's impossible to get out in 2 Hi and you need a pull. In some places it's difficult to get through an obstacle when you're not pulling a 2 Hi rig.

aggressively slip the clutch

AKA, smoke the clutch, something you don't need to do in a AT

more aggressive engine braking the manual transmission would allow

That's a super stretch, 2 Hi is not going to provide the compression breaking of a 4:1 xfer case and 1st gear. You've still got brakes. This is about recovery, not minimizing braking coming out.

why do I keep engaging in this thread, especially with such a weak retort. Step hill, lots of rocks to crawl over. And you think aggressively slip the clutch for several miles is better? Really?

BTW, the score is MT:1, AT:4

MT: 1st low is better compression breaking on steep declines
AT:

1. 2 Hi recovery, this thread
2. You're not limited to you driving your rig. With an auto, I can spot while my wife drives. When I broke my finger in a recovery, she drove out. I've never seen a MT guy let anyone drive his rig. That's fairly common for AT folks.
3. Heavy 38" tires & wheels (like my Nitto 38x13.5R17 on beadlocks) requires a better clutch & heavier flywheel . ( I disagree with this and should probably remove it).
4. Towing a trailer, backing over curbs, pulling over obstacles.

I had my wife driving my Jeep a couple weeks ago. I got high centered, so she hopped in the driver seat and I got outside and started rocking that Jeep back and forth till it grabbed. So #2 is not real…#3 your completely wrong, and 4 is just stupid…

 

[Badweissenbier]

Dang it I didn’t know I can’t pull my trailer.

I've really been screwing up these last years.

 

[J0E]

I had my wife driving my Jeep a couple weeks ago. I got high centered, so she hopped in the driver seat and I got outside and started rocking that Jeep back and forth till it grabbed. So #2 is not real…#3 your completely wrong, and 4 is just stupid…

Double LOL. My assertion is almost anyone using a spotter can wheel through a difficult line with a spotter. Your wife does it on an easy high centered spot, therefore anyone can do any line with a MT. What about all the other MT folks saying it's operators error, driver needed more skill? You're saying it takes no more skill with a MT through a difficult crawl? What about my 14 y.o. nephew that's never driven a stick. I've spotted for him several times. You comfortable having him drive your MT?

annoying as hell experts such as [Banned Site] stalls – Just stalled on this obstacle which happens a lot when you’re wheeling a stick.

Still think anyone can wheel with a MT?

How about Stalling on The Wall, Poughkeepsie Gulch, Colorado

Can your 14 y.o. nephew do that without smoking the clutch.

The 14 y.o.. did much of the following rock climb with me, the super slow spotter. Multiple stops, start, turn, back up.

Pic is about the middle, coming back from the end. You going to let the passenger of another rig run this route?

How about this?

#3 your completely wrong

Agreed, deleted.

4 is just stupid…

Here's 4: Towing a trailer, backing over curbs, pulling over obstacles.

Guess you've never taken a trailer where you need to nudge it over a big curb or some other obstacle. Far easier with torque multiplication of torque converter. You can't bump it. Reverse idle speed is too fast. Now it's not just the weight of the JL, it's the trailer too.

Dang it I didn’t know I can’t pull my trailer.

I've really been screwing up these last years.

LOL again. Never said anything about pulling a trailer. Let's see you back up a heavy trailer, front wheels turned, over a large curb or other obstacle in reverse. I've done in routinely over the years with an automatic. Easier when I had front hubs that weren't engaged. With an auto, on pavement, wheels turned, I back over curbs in 2 Hi. You going to do that in 2 Hi with a MT?

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