One Confusing part of the Rubicon vs. Sahara question.

[mgroeger]

Okay, that's where I get confused about 4 wheel drive. In 2H, I thought and saw on the Jeep website that 100% torque is going to the (2) rear wheels. 50-50 aside. If slippage is indicated - BLD is applied and when clear, becomes 50-50 again. In 4H, the same thing occurs in the front and in the back, no?

So what you are saying, is in 2H, 100% torque is applied to (1) wheel (Left or Right?). When slippage is indicated, the BLD is applied and the torque is shifted to the non-slip side. This description is also applicable to the front, no?

To that end, would you ever see a limited slip differential with BLD added?

Would you have to remove one system to use the other?

So I was thinking about lockers on a D30/D35 Sahara, but that takes me in several rabbit holes.
I have a 3.45 rear end. Most lockers require 3.75 and above? Why? More importantly, if I want lockers will I have to regear? If I have to regear...will I need to "re-axle"? Joking of course, but nevertheless do you believe that the reason you don't see elocks on a D35 is because its not made to handle an elock? I have seen/heard of air-actuated locks on a D35, not sure why there is one over the other.

Sorry about the ranging questions!

Google and see video above.

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[Odyssey USA]

Okay, that's where I get confused about 4 wheel drive. In 2H, I thought and saw on the Jeep website that 100% torque is going to the (2) rear wheels. 50-50 aside. If slippage is indicated - BLD is applied and when clear, becomes 50-50 again. In 4H, the same thing occurs in the front and in the back, no?

So what you are saying, is in 2H, 100% torque is applied to (1) wheel (Left or Right?). When slippage is indicated, the BLD is applied and the torque is shifted to the non-slip side. This description is also applicable to the front, no?

To that end, would you ever see a limited slip differential with BLD added?

Would you have to remove one system to use the other?

So I was thinking about lockers on a D30/D35 Sahara, but that takes me in several rabbit holes.
I have a 3.45 rear end. Most lockers require 3.75 and above? Why? More importantly, if I want lockers will I have to regear? If I have to regear...will I need to "re-axle"? Joking of course, but nevertheless do you believe that the reason you don't see elocks on a D35 is because its not made to handle an elock? I have seen/heard of air-actuated locks on a D35, not sure why there is one over the other.

Sorry about the ranging questions!

Ox locker doesn’t. I kept my 3.45’s. And though it’s commonly referred to as the D35, it really isn’t. The only thing interchangeable is you CAN put a D35 ring Gear in the M200 Advantek rear.

 

[lightsout]

There is a lot of miss-information in the last few post. First off I have a Sahara with the LSD rear diff that does provide poser to both wheels when needed in fact except for hardcore climbing the LSD will out perform the locker. With that said on my Sahara I added the Easton electric front lockers to my stock BLD front axel. While my front is still the lighter axel for everything up to serious rock climbing I can generally out perform most Rubicons with lockers on all 4. We do a lot of snow and ice driving where lockers on all 4 are trecherous. Still LDS rear and BLD front will be the best performing combination for 100% of daily and 90% of recreational off road.

 

[Alamo1]

Ox locker doesn’t. I kept my 3.45’s. And though it’s commonly referred to as the D35, it really isn’t. The only thing interchangeable is you CAN put a D35 ring Gear in the M200 Advantek rear.

So, question about keeping the 3.45. My thoughts are that since I have the 2.0L turbo, the engine settings and torque calibrations are designed for a 3.45. If I change that, what else do I have to change to accommodate a gearing higher than 3.45? My brother has a tricked out Rubicon which he says lags at lower speeds because the gearing, tires, lift, etc affected the designed engine performance of that vehicle ('15 JKUR). As I understand it, if the vehicle is designed to run at 2200 rpms before shifting (in an automatic), a higher gear install will mean the vehicle will run at the same speed as before (lower torque), but at maybe 2400 rpms; which means it will always be trying to downshift based on factory settings. Is that right? Does that mean you also need to buy the Calibration Kit? Does that come with gears you purchase?

Thank you everyone for answering my questions! To the previous thread - thanks for the videos. It did explain quite well the difference between open and lock diffs - I am now more intrigued how limiting the spin on a side will increase traction in a BLD. I assume that based on the video that braking will "reduce force" on the spinning tire thereby increasing the force on the non-spinning tire.

 

[Alamo1]

There is a lot of miss-information in the last few post. First off I have a Sahara with the LSD rear diff that does provide poser to both wheels when needed in fact except for hardcore climbing the LSD will out perform the locker. With that said on my Sahara I added the Easton electric front lockers to my stock BLD front axel. While my front is still the lighter axel for everything up to serious rock climbing I can generally out perform most Rubicons with lockers on all 4. We do a lot of snow and ice driving where lockers on all 4 are trecherous. Still LDS rear and BLD front will be the best performing combination for 100% of daily and 90% of recreational off road.

Thanks! So my my question to you is if you dont have LSD in the rear, would you recommend rear elocks and keep the BLD in the front? Do you know who carries an elock for the D35?

 

[lightsout]

Thanks! So my my question to you is if you dont have LSD in the rear, would you recommend rear elocks and keep the BLD in the front? Do you know who carries an elock for the D35?

That is subjective. Personally if I has F-R stock BLD I would likely not add rear lockers for typical recreational off road. I would rather invest is recovery equipment (winch and accessories) the BLD's are very capable for 90% of off road. Also know that Lockers on Rubicons are limited to 4WD-L (unless re-programmed which voids warranty). The other option is to watch for a LSD Take off if you can find one. I will take LSD over rear locker every time. (note I do not rock climb).

IMO A winch will get you out of trouble more than lockers will... That is my Sahara below

 

[limeade]

IMO A winch will get you out of trouble more than lockers will

But not having lockers will get you into more trouble than if you have lockers......for rock crawling or any other terrain which has any kind of deep holes, gaps, etc where a tire may not be touching the ground.

Lockers allow for almost magical traction without the need to use too much of the skinny pedal or bumping your Jeep over an obstacle. That is how steering and drivetrain components get broken.

I don't trust LSD's (which can wear out or the need for traction overwhelm their ability to provide traction) in off road situations. And BLD? To me I would prefer to not have it since I have lockers.

 

[limeade]

There is a lot of miss-information in the last few post. First off I have a Sahara with the LSD rear diff that does provide poser to both wheels when needed in fact except for hardcore climbing the LSD will out perform the locker. With that said on my Sahara I added the Easton electric front lockers to my stock BLD front axel. While my front is still the lighter axel for everything up to serious rock climbing I can generally out perform most Rubicons with lockers on all 4. We do a lot of snow and ice driving where lockers on all 4 are trecherous. Still LDS rear and BLD front will be the best performing combination for 100% of daily and 90% of recreational off road.

Seems to me you are putting out a lot of misinformation here...…


In what kind of terrain will an LSD out-perform a locker? Not in any kind of off road terrain that I know of. On icy and snowy driving on the street, lockers shouldn't be used. So I guess you'd be right. But your comment of: "
I can generally out perform most Rubicons with lockers on all 4" sounds ludicrous to me. In off road terrain, where the use of a single locker, or both lockers need to be used, there is no way a rig with only a front locker and rear LSD will outperform a similar vehicle with both front and rear lockers.



Maybe your driving technique, experience, and line choice is the determining factor. It sure isn't your rear LSD.
Sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling in these posts.

 

[lightsout]

But not having lockers will get you into more trouble than if you have lockers......for rock crawling or any other terrain which has any kind of deep holes, gaps, etc where a tire may not be touching the ground.

Lockers allow for almost magical traction without the need to use too much of the skinny pedal or bumping your Jeep over an obstacle. That is how steering and drivetrain components get broken.

I don't trust LSD's (which can wear out or the need for traction overwhelm their ability to provide traction) in off road situations. And BLD? To me I would prefer to not have it since I have lockers.

Dude I specifically said Lockers were better for rock climbing but when 99% of wrangler owners spend 99% of their miles on pavement or mild off road that should be the discussion not the rare extremes.

Lockers are limited to 4WD-LOW only (unless re-programmed which is a warranty killer).

Here in the NW with rain and steep hills My LSD kick in every time I go up the hill on wet pavement to my home, and in snow Lockers are more dangerous then good. Look if you are buying to rock climb and drive on dry pavement all the time then by all means get lockers, but for just about all other driving LSD or even BLD is more productive (yes I know Rubicons have BLD). Lockers are way over rated for 95% of wrangler owners.

My combination of Rear LSD and Front E-locker provides amazing versatility. I am not anti locker but they have very limited usage for most wrangler owners.

 

[Alamo1]

Seems to me you are putting out a lot of misinformation here...…


In what kind of terrain will an LSD out-perform a locker? Not in any kind of off road terrain that I know of. On icy and snowy driving on the street, lockers shouldn't be used. So I guess you'd be right. But your comment of: "
I can generally out perform most Rubicons with lockers on all 4" sounds ludicrous to me. In off road terrain, where the use of a single locker, or both lockers need to be used, there is no way a rig with only a front locker and rear LSD will outperform a similar vehicle with both front and rear lockers.



Maybe your driving technique, experience, and line choice is the determining factor. It sure isn't your rear LSD.
Sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling in these posts.

Thank you for your comments and I appreciate your insight.

 

[Alamo1]

Thank you for your comments and I appreciate your insight.

Dude I specifically said Lockers were better for rock climbing but when 99% of wrangler owners spend 99% of their miles on pavement or mild off road that should be the discussion not the rare extremes.

Lockers are limited to 4WD-LOW only (unless re-programmed which is a warranty killer).

Here in the NW with rain and steep hills My LSD kick in every time I go up the hill on wet pavement to my home, and in snow Lockers are more dangerous then good. Look if you are buying to rock climb and drive on dry pavement all the time then by all means get lockers, but for just about all other driving LSD or even BLD is more productive (yes I know Rubicons have BLD). Lockers are way over rated for 95% of wrangler owners.

My combination of Rear LSD and Front E-locker provides amazing versatility. I am not anti locker but they have very limited usage for most wrangler owners.

Thank you for your comments and I appreciate your insight. I will be on the lookout for an LSD take off.

 

[limeade]

Dude I specifically said Lockers were better for rock climbing but when 99% of wrangler owners spend 99% of their miles on pavement or mild off road that should be the discussion not the rare extremes.

Lockers are limited to 4WD-LOW only (unless re-programmed which is a warranty killer).

Here in the NW with rain and steep hills My LSD kick in every time I go up the hill on wet pavement to my home, and in snow Lockers are more dangerous then good. Look if you are buying to rock climb and drive on dry pavement all the time then by all means get lockers, but for just about all other driving LSD or even BLD is more productive (yes I know Rubicons have BLD). Lockers are way over rated for 95% of wrangler owners.

My combination of Rear LSD and Front E-locker provides amazing versatility. I am not anti locker but they have very limited usage for most wrangler owners.

You didn't say that lockers were better for rock climbing. I don't see where you said that in any of the listed posts below:

That is subjective. Personally if I has F-R stock BLD I would likely not add rear lockers for typical recreational off road. I would rather invest is recovery equipment (winch and accessories) the BLD's are very capable for 90% of off road. Also know that Lockers on Rubicons are limited to 4WD-L (unless re-programmed which voids warranty). The other option is to watch for a LSD Take off if you can find one. I will take LSD over rear locker every time. (note I do not rock climb).

IMO A winch will get you out of trouble more than lockers will... That is my Sahara below

There is a lot of miss-information in the last few post. First off I have a Sahara with the LSD rear diff that does provide poser to both wheels when needed in fact except for hardcore climbing the LSD will out perform the locker. With that said on my Sahara I added the Easton electric front lockers to my stock BLD front axel. While my front is still the lighter axel for everything up to serious rock climbing I can generally out perform most Rubicons with lockers on all 4. We do a lot of snow and ice driving where lockers on all 4 are trecherous. Still LDS rear and BLD front will be the best performing combination for 100% of daily and 90% of recreational off road.

You said you wouldn't add lockers for typical recreational off road. You're typical is probably different than a lot of other users here.

The problems with limited slips, especially if they have clutch packs, are:
The clutch packs can wear out and therefore not provide any traction aid
The terrain can overwhelm the ability of the LSD to provide traction and therefore will provide no benefit. At this point, the LSD is ineffective and that axle is now acting like an open differential.

What I'm saying is your throwing out a lot of opinion, which isn't necessarily factual.

 

[lightsout]

Seems to me you are putting out a lot of misinformation here...…


In what kind of terrain will an LSD out-perform a locker? Not in any kind of off road terrain that I know of. On icy and snowy driving on the street, lockers shouldn't be used. So I guess you'd be right. But your comment of: "
I can generally out perform most Rubicons with lockers on all 4" sounds ludicrous to me. In off road terrain, where the use of a single locker, or both lockers need to be used, there is no way a rig with only a front locker and rear LSD will outperform a similar vehicle with both front and rear lockers.



Maybe your driving technique, experience, and line choice is the determining factor. It sure isn't your rear LSD.
Sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling in these posts.

My LSD is on demand all the time, your lockers are limited to 4WD-low. When Lockers brake traction you are pretty much done for. Having the Front pulling locker and the rear intermitent LSD provides variables in leverage to help wiggle out.

Again 99% of Rubicon owners will use their lockers 1% of their miles (or less), When I am running 4-H with LSD be it dirt road, muddy trail, snow, ice, rain the Rubicon is limited to BLD unless in 4-low putting my setup in a much better traction position. Talking extremes is a waste of time when when it is such a rare if EVER event for most and a $1000 winch and bumper will get you out of those 1% situations when needed. This is speaking to the 99%.

My Self while I have front lockers I have used them once in more than 2000 miles of off road (Trails and service roads) and that was only to pull a rig out of the ditch.

 

[lightsout]

You didn't say that lockers were better for rock climbing. I don't see where you said that in any of the listed posts below:




You said you wouldn't add lockers for typical recreational off road. You're typical is probably different than a lot of other users here.

The problems with limited slips, especially if they have clutch packs, are:
The clutch packs can wear out and therefore not provide any traction aid
The terrain can overwhelm the ability of the LSD to provide traction and therefore will provide no benefit. At this point, the LSD is ineffective and that axle is now acting like an open differential.

What I'm saying is your throwing out a lot of opinion, which isn't necessarily factual.

And Lockers never break? Clutch Packs can wear out (that well past the ownership for most who keep their rigs less than 8 years)however it is not a major maintenance expense anyway.

"The Terrain" what terrain, extreme rock climbing, for sure but the other 99% that is not an issue. It is laughable that Rubicon owners only talk in extremes, negating the other 99% of driving conditions.

 

[limeade]

My LSD is on demand all the time, your lockers are limited to 4WD-low. When Lockers brake traction you are pretty much done for. Having the Front pulling locker and the rear intermitent LSD provides variables in leverage to help wiggle out.

So I can understand completely, are you saying that having a front pulling locker and the rear intermittent LSD provides better traction (or leverage) to help wiggle out vs. the Rubicon lockers?

Because that's how I interpret your statement.

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