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Newbie: Winch for 4XE?

TeeGeeThree

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Jeep newbie here. I just got my 2021 4XE Sahara a month ago. I'm in the Northeast and plan to do some moderate off-roading and overland camping this year. My first add for that was a set of K02 Rubicon takeoffs. My next add, or at least something I'd feel a lot more comfortable having, is a winch. (I've gotten stuck before in my old F150 and tried to get out with a come along and, just, no.)

I'd been reading about winches and bumpers and I had to take a break, too much info. But 4wheelparts just sent out an email with 15% off Smittybuilt Gen2 X20 12k winch, and it's got me on this again. So, just to make this simple:

Let's say I'm getting a Smittybuilt. Do I want the 12k, or should I just stick with a 10k because it's plenty (keeping in mind this is 4xe)? Should I be happy with a Gen2, or for the money should I go gen3?

Next, as per this, I'm thinking I see the wisdom in adding a bumper:

https://www.thelonejeeper.ca/Why-Avoid-Winch-Mount-Factory-Bumper-Jeep-JK.html#google_vignette

Assuming you agree, can you suggest a bumper for me - maybe like the KO2s of bumpers, which is to say a popular favorite for the use I have in mind, ie, only moderate off-roading?

Finally, what else do I need to get set up, and what else do I need to know about?

I plan to educate myself on actually using the winch, of course. Just trying to understand what I'll need to actually make this all happen on my jeep.

Thanks.
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Kreepin1

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I would not be under pressure to buy the winch just because it's on sale. Sure, $611 for a 12k Gen2 Smittybilt with synthetic line is a great price. But it may be that the 9.5K Smittybilt with steel cable for $340 suits your needs better.

Here are the decisions you need to make:
1) How heavy is your rig going to be? You will be astounded at how fast weight goes up by the time you get all your gear and provisions loaded. I suggest you spend some time reading in the build log section and get a feel for what your rig is going to end up weighing and then try to keep the weight down at each step of the way. The rule of thumb is that the winch should be rated for 1.5 times the weight of your rig fully loaded.

2) What front bumper are you going to run? Make sure your winch fits it! I agree with the Lone Jeeper to an extent, I would not mount a winch on top of a plastic bumper like that. If it were my Jeep I would consider finding a factory steel bumper and getting a mounting kit that drops the winch down inside of it (pros are excellent corrosion resistance and OEM look) or an aluminum bumper like GenRight. (pros are light weight and a little more robust).

3) Steel or synthetic cable? I'm a recreational wheeler and only run synthetic on my rigs for safety. But if I were out alone and that winch were the only thing between me and the Donner party I might go steel...

4) Which brings me to price point. There are two things not to cheap out on in an overlanding rig; tires and winch. Assuming your winch is rated for the weight of your vehicle, the second most important factor to me is "no load line speed." Consider this scenario. You camped in a low area and it rained. Now the simple climb out is a slick, muddy mess. No problem, you pull cable and start to winch. A cheap winch will not have the "duty cycle" for a long pull. So you help it by driving forward. But a cheap winch also has a slow no load speed so the cable drops to the ground whenever you get traction, eventually fouling the drum or worse getting caught under a tire or wrapped around your axle. I've experienced all this.

5) Looks. Be honest, a lot of times this is an important factor.

Now, to answer your questions. The 12k is more than you need and further it will have a slower no load line speed than a 9.5 or 10k winch from the same product line. Regarding Gen2 or Gen3 it is hard to say, Smittybilt's web site is a little contradictory. In their comparison they state the Gen3 9.5 XRC is 27.3 ft/min vs. the Gen2 at 23.4. Yet on the Gen2 page they state 32.3 ft/min. Personally, I think Smittybilt has gone the same way Warn's VR series has which is newer is not better. I'd get a Gen2 but it looks like the synthetic line versions are gone...

Here is a decent article to read:
https://www.roundforge.com/articles/best-10000-lb-winches/
 
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TeeGeeThree

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Thank you for this in-depth reply. I imagine my “rig” could get quite heavy - rig in quotes because much of that would be camping gear. That said, there’s only so much space in (and potentially the Jeep. So you still recommend the 9.5 for line speed?

I would prefer synthetic. Steel cable under load makes me nervous.

I will go read the articles you suggest now, and I may be back with bumper questions. Thanks again.
 

smokeythecat

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Steel or synthetic cable? I'm a recreational wheeler and only run synthetic on my rigs for safety. But if I were out alone and that winch were the only thing between me and the Donner party I might go steel...
You can splice a synthetic rope in the field. Not so much for a steel cable.
 

bjm00se

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There are lots of good choices out there and there reading all the thread on this forum will give you "winch overload."

So, just a couple things:

1. The 4xe is already fricken heavy. So I'd think about mounting an aluminum winch bumper to save weight. RockHard makes some nice ones, but there are many other choices.

2. That said, even 4xe still only needs a 10k winch. Rule of thumb for winch sizing is fully loaded (not empty curb) weight X 1.5. So, 6400 GVWR X 1.5 = 9600lbs. A 10K winch is appropriately sized.

3. Above, Kreepini wrote: "A cheap winch will not have the "duty cycle" for a long pull. So you help it by driving forward." When winching, unless the vehicle is simply *dead,* you should *always* use the vehicle's drivetrain to try and move forward slowly, and supplement that with a tug from the winch. That's just winching best practice, and has nothing to do with whether the winch is "cheap."

4. Synthetic is both lighter and safer than steel cable. You've really gotta be on a thin budget to be considering steel cable. And the owner of a new 4xe isn't in that camp.

5. There are lots of good choices out there, and winches are expensive. It's OK to pick between otherwise good choices based on which one's on sale.

If you still have money to spare, look at adding more gear to your recovery kit, rather than spending more on the winch. Tree saver (which you need no matter what) Snatch Block, Winch Extension cable, chains, Pull Pal, etc...
 

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smokeythecat

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Assuming you agree, can you suggest a bumper for me - maybe like the KO2s of bumpers, which is to say a popular favorite for the use I have in mind, ie, only moderate off-roading?
I recently replaced the stock front plastic bumper with a GenRight stubby aluminum bumper and added a Quadratec 10K winch with synthetic line. After all was said and done the front increased sag was 1/4". The downside is that the bumper doesn't have holes for fog lights. But on that note I'm installing some Stedi work lights today on mine.
 

bjm00se

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Assuming your winch is rated for the weight of your vehicle, the second most important factor to me is "no load line speed." Consider this scenario. You camped in a low area and it rained. Now the simple climb out is a slick, muddy mess. No problem, you pull cable and start to winch. A cheap winch will not have the "duty cycle" for a long pull. So you help it by driving forward. But a cheap winch also has a slow no load speed so the cable drops to the ground whenever you get traction, eventually fouling the drum or worse getting caught under a tire or wrapped around your axle. I've experienced all this.
I agree with almost everything you said above, but while folks tend to emphasize "line speed," the difference between the slower and faster winches isn't all that great.

Even the fastest winches have a no-load line speed that's only around *half* of the Rubicon's crawl speed at idle, which is 74 feet per minute. Even the Warn Platinum can't keep up with that, at 44 feet per minute.
 

baskiboat

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I am very happy with the winch and bumper setup on my 4xe. I have used the winch in deep snow and mud. I have a 10k from Superwinch. I love the synthetic line and the wireless remote.

Screenshot_20220115-085613_DuckDuckGo.jpg


Screenshot_20220115-085428_DuckDuckGo.jpg


20211231_140125.jpg
 

Kreepin1

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I agree with almost everything you said above, but while folks tend to emphasize "line speed," the difference between the slower and faster winches isn't all that great.

Even the fastest winches have a no-load line speed that's only around *half* of the Rubicon's crawl speed at idle, which is 74 feet per minute. Even the Warn Platinum can't keep up with that, at 44 feet per minute.
I agree with you to a point. Any winch can be overrun by the vehicle and your example is spot on. But there are exceptions and other factors that come into play in the real world.

The 8274 on my CJ-7 pulls cable at 79 feet per minute. Admittedly, this is not the most practical winch to mount on a modern vehicle.

Manufacturer's numbers are for the first layer and line speed climbs appreciably toward the end of the pull when the drum is nearly full. Typically this is when people stop paying attention and drive over the line.

If you have an automatic transmission, the crawl speed is dependent on the obstacle and throttle position. Even with a manual transmission there is typically wheel slip during the recovery process.

So while I agree that line almost always drops slack at some point in the recovery, I stand by my position. A faster winch is better. When comparing winches within your budget the most important factor is matching size to the fully loaded vehicle's weight. The second is no-load line speed.
 

Kreepin1

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You can splice a synthetic rope in the field. Not so much for a steel cable.
I have never seen a steel cable break (thank God) but I have seen several synthetic lines break. And yes, I've had to splice mine back at camp before.
 

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Kreepin1

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[snip]

When winching, unless the vehicle is simply *dead,* you should *always* use the vehicle's drivetrain to try and move forward slowly, and supplement that with a tug from the winch. That's just winching best practice, and has nothing to do with whether the winch is "cheap."

[snip]
This is excellent advice. But *always* is a strong word. There are many situations when you can't use the drivetrain to assist the winch. Sliding sideways on a muddy hill, sugar sand, side pulls, etc.

I recognize we are getting away from the OP's intended use a bit, but if a recreational users' winch takes a crap someone else in the group will pull them out. If an overlander's winch takes a crap it means a long walk back to get help.
 

bjm00se

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The 8274 on my CJ-7 pulls cable at 79 feet per minute. Admittedly, this is not the most practical winch to mount on a modern vehicle.
There ya go. We'll just recommend everyone on jlwranglerforums to buy the 8274. :rock:

https://www.warn.com/m8274-synthetic-106175

But seriously, I think we're probably about as close to mutual agreement as two folks yacking on the Internet are likely to get.
 

Kreepin1

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Thank you for this in-depth reply. I imagine my “rig” could get quite heavy - rig in quotes because much of that would be camping gear. That said, there’s only so much space in (and potentially the Jeep. So you still recommend the 9.5 for line speed?

I would prefer synthetic. Steel cable under load makes me nervous.

I will go read the articles you suggest now, and I may be back with bumper questions. Thanks again.
I am trying to avoid telling you what to do. My goal is to help you make an educated choice.

If it were my Jeep I would get synthetic line, good choice.

Last Fall I was one of the guides at a Jeep Adventure Academy event. The instructor talking about winches said he'd rather have an 8k quality winch than a 12k budget winch. I agree, but of course we'd both rather have an appropriately sized quality winch if we could afford it.

So let's consider for a moment getting a quality winch that is "too small" to stay in budget. Most of the time you will find you only need a little help to clear an obstacle. The small fast winch with synthetic line is a dream in this case. Every once in a while you get really stuck. Think mud to the tops of your tires stuck. The small winch can still pull you out if you have one or two snatch blocks. These can double or triple the pulling power of your winch. (You should have one even with a big winch for tricky pulls). The catch is you are using two or three times as much line and might not be able to reach a good anchor. So you carry a winch extension line.

Example 1: My CJ-7 is a big dog. I've had it buried in mud nearly to the tops of it's 43" tires. This is really and truly stuck. It weighs 5,900 lbs trail ready with us on board. Times 1.5 is 8,850 lbs, so I need at least 9.5k winch, right? But I'm only running an 8k M-8274 and wouldn't trade it for anything. I carry two snatch blocks and a 50' extension line.

Example 2: My Samurai is the opposite. It weighs 2,700 lbs with me aboard. It has a Warn M-6000 winch (48 ft/min no-load) but I've pulled a full size (diesel!) Blazer out of the mud with it using a snatch block.
 

Kreepin1

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There ya go. We'll just recommend everyone on jlwranglerforums to buy the 8274. :rock:

https://www.warn.com/m8274-synthetic-106175

But seriously, I think we're probably about as close to mutual agreement as two folks yacking on the Internet are likely to get.
Pffft, seriously? A stock M-8274?

Who's in for the Gigglepin TwinMotor group buy?
https://gigglepin4x4.net/gigglepin-gp100-twinmotor-competition-winch-2329-p.asp

At this point I imagine the OP's head is about to explode!
 
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TeeGeeThree

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Yes, my head is about to explode.

Ok, synthetic line, 9.5 or 10k, good brand, got it.

Let's talk bumpers. I like the idea of a lighter bumper. Why not. I like the looks of bumpers that keep the winch somewhat contained and hidden away. I'd prefer a full size bumper for regular-highway-driving safety, and for looks. Assuming I'm installing all this stuff myself, I'd like it to be a fairly straightforward process, as I'm fairly handy but not a mechanic. I don't need to break the bank but I'm perfectly happy spending money for quality. And that's all I know.

Any suggestions for me? Baskiboat, I like the looks of yours, but I do think I'd prefer full size.

(Also I just took my jeep out for its very first mini off-road, through rutted out forest trails and over some steep rises and man was it fun.)
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