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Moab’s best trails threatened…

QwikKotaTx

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Astro Jeep

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I am all for environmentalism, but there needs to be a limit to the crazy side of it. The fact is we can tree hug all we want and ultimately it will not matter. The Sun will turn into a red giant and kill every organism and utterly destroy the Earth, and there is nothing that Greta Thunberg can do about it. The tectonic plates will slowly grind away MOAB into oblivion before that happens though. Let's not forget that there is a 100% chance that there is a civilization killing asteroid lurking out there simply biding it's time.

On the bright side, as man becomes more advanced technological innovations generally become cleaner, and have done so since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Nothing last forever, we should be able to enjoy our lives and activities. I would never advocate for wheeling in the Grand Canyon, but MOAB has already been set aside for those activities through common and accepted use over the decades. Even the local economy is based upon 4x4ing. If MOAB is effectively closed down then the off-road enthusiast crowd will simply find another place to wheel effectively altering more of the environment in the process.

I will be making my comments to the BLM in the AM.
 

AVGeek99

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Thanks for sharing!!! Comment posted. I made my first two trips to Moab this year. I plan to go back often and will happily spend my tourism dollars in Moab.
 

yetisarereal

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I will definitely be leaving a comment for the BLM. I'm all for smart and practical environmentalism but I think those that wish to remove access with the excuse 'well you can hike it' or ' just bike it' completely lack empathy for those with poor mobility. Not everyone is blessed with the physical requirements to visit some of these distant and remote areas. Do people in that situation have no right to recreate and also enjoy the public lands? Seems like a slippery slope in deciding which groups should be granted access to public lands. Hiking can cause just as much wear and tear on the landscape over time. Everybody recreating on foot would just lead to enormous rock surface wear and also erosion. One only needs to visit some the most popular peaks in Appalachia or a popular cave system to see rock surface wear from foot traffic. I mean if zero or low impact is the goal then all access should be removed and we can all just look at it from afar with binoculars, because there is no such thing as low impact or zero impact trails within an ecosytem.
 
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Rubi SoHo

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So yes. For public land that belongs to everyone, If you can walk it faster than you can drive it (jeep or ATV or motorcycle) what is the point of driving? Just walk the trail and enjoy the view, enjoy the wildlife that you will see because you aren't making lots of noise. Enjoy the plants and flowers that thrive when you don't pollute the air with NOX. Drive to the trailhead, park, and walk. One of the best things they did at Zion Ntl Park was to restrict cars and get everyone to take the shuttle.

SHould we still have jeep and ATV trails - YES.
Jeep trails that lead to trailheads for walking. The MOAB area is huge. You need the equivalent of forest service dirt roads, and then hiking trails that branch out from the trail heads.

If you want to do hard core rock crawling I support private enterprise that uses their own land to create an off road park. That's what we have in Texas.

But when we set aside public land - we did so to preserve it for future generations AS IS. Not with rubber granules in the water supply.
You’ve yet to provide evidence of these claims. I wonder why that is?
 

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yetisarereal

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Will two people hiking create as much wear as two people driving?
--- No. This is pretty obvious. Basic Physics 101 ---

Do folks with poor mobility deserve access - YES.
it's a balancing act. I have a very good friend that lost his legs in the 1980's BEFORE the ADA laws. He advocated and was on a task force for Governor (eventually president) Bush. My friend helped write the ADA laws.

SO yeah, if you can't walk - we need to figure out how to help you get out and enjoy our public lands. You probably have a handicapped parking sticker - that might be a way to reduce impact.

It's a balancing act... and we want these areas to still be pristine for our great grandkids.
Nice try at cherrypicking from my statement. I didn't say 2 people hiking is the exact same as 2 driving. Clearly its not, but thinking that everyone being forced to hike it is not going to cause damage is just blind ignorance. It sounds like you can't figure out a way to square your extremist beliefs with reality.
 

Jtclayton612

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So yes. For public land that belongs to everyone, If you can walk it faster than you can drive it (jeep or ATV or motorcycle) what is the point of driving? Just walk the trail and enjoy the view, enjoy the wildlife that you will see because you aren't making lots of noise. Enjoy the plants and flowers that thrive when you don't pollute the air with NOX. Drive to the trailhead, park, and walk. One of the best things they did at Zion Ntl Park was to restrict cars and get everyone to take the shuttle.

SHould we still have jeep and ATV trails - YES.
Jeep trails that lead to trailheads for walking. The MOAB area is huge. You need the equivalent of forest service dirt roads, and then hiking trails that branch out from the trail heads.

If you want to do hard core rock crawling I support private enterprise that uses their own land to create an off road park. That's what we have in Texas.

But when we set aside public land - we did so to preserve it for future generations AS IS. Not with rubber granules in the water supply.
I mean if we use your opinion any hiking trails I can bike down faster than you can walk it should be closed to hikers? Or close down graded hiking trails to people walking and make it only horseback if they can ride faster than you can walk it.

Some people don’t have the option of hiking so motorized trails are obviously the answer here.

some people just like the challenge of pitting their skill and machine against a challenge.

some people just like cruising with AC.
 

yetisarereal

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I wouldn't expect rubber to end up in water treatment facilities in cities that border MOAB. Too remote. The issue is rubber granules and chemical leaching into the water table, streams, etc. that are used by wildlife.

Little bitty black things look like insects, so fish and birds eat them, and they won't digest.

This is a known issue with plastic in the ocean and rivers. I live near the gulf of mexico, I grew up in the desert. Both are complicated ecosystems and we need to treat them well. I also work for a big oil and chemical company. I'm not anti tires. But we all know that you lose tread as you drive, which means that tread goes somewhere. If you drive on asphalt, the tire rubber is chemically similar and mostly just becomes part of the asphalt road.

It's when you drive on NON asphalt roads that you leave rubber in an ecosystem that isn't designed for it.
You mean little black granules that also come from the tread of hiking boots and every other form of shoes? Again there is no such thing as low or zero impact. We should all just hangout in mega cities and never travel that would fix this issue.
 
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Rubi SoHo

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Can you link this source? In theory this would occur across every road and travel way. Has anyone heard of any water treatment plants struggling to get the rubber out of the water? I am truly curious.
this was my thought as well. There are going to be infinitely more “rubber granules” washing into city storm trains. I don’t see this being a huge concern for water treatment professionals, or of environmentalists in general. I hear a lot about CO2 and how that’s going to wreck the planet in a few years, but really nothing about rubber granules in the water being a massive problem.

I think @jimcoffey62 should share some published and peer reviewed data.
 

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Rubi SoHo

Rubi SoHo

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Exaggeration doesn't help things.
If you want to do a fair comparison, you need to keep the number of people the same.

Compare 100 hikers vs 100 jeepers, feel free to put 2 people in each jeep. Heck, put 4 in each jeep even though all the videos I see have mostly 1-2 people per jeep.

Wear and tear and tread loss is a function of friction which is a function of surface area and weight.

Pretty obvious that even 25 jeeps = 100 tires * the weight of the jeep and the tire on road surface area is going to be WAY more tread friction loss than 100 hikers.
It seems like now you’re on about erosion. I’d point out that the wear and tear of wind, rain, ice, and time is consistently causing more sandstone erosion than any Jeep’s ever caused. The entire landscape in Moab is created by natural erosion. The trails are different every spring after the winter has had its way with them.
 
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Rubi SoHo

Rubi SoHo

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You can look me up on linked in and read my patents.
I wrote the FAQ for the sci.polymers newsgroup.
My science creds are legit.
I didn’t ask for credentials. I politely asked you to share some peer reviewed data. An appeal to authority fallacy won’t cut it on its own.
 
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Rubi SoHo

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No, not talking about erosion. I agree that natural erosion happens.
I was talking about tread wear and leaving rubber granules in a sensitive ecosystem that didn't evolve to have rubber and plastic bits.
Someone suggested that hiking boots lose tread (they do) at the same rate as jeep tires lose tread (nope). I pointed out the friction and tread wear is a function of weight and tire/boot surface area. The weight on a pair of shoes is the weight of the person. The weight on tires is the weight of the person PLUS the weight of the jeep.

For the same number of people the jeep tires are going to leave way more rubber in the ecosystem than the same number of hikers.
OK you’ve made that point, and I wouldn’t argue with you.

Now show us your proof that tire tread wear from Jeeps in Moab is causing the damage you claim it is.
 

grimmjeeper

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Will two people hiking create as much wear as two people driving?
--- No. This is pretty obvious. Basic Physics 101 ---

Do folks with poor mobility deserve access - YES.
it's a balancing act. I have a very good friend that lost his legs in the 1980's BEFORE the ADA laws. He advocated and was on a task force for Governor (eventually president) Bush. My friend helped write the ADA laws.

SO yeah, if you can't walk - we need to figure out how to help you get out and enjoy our public lands. You probably have a handicapped parking sticker - that might be a way to reduce impact.

It's a balancing act... and we want these areas to still be pristine for our great grandkids.
You balance it by keeping the trails open to everyone. Bikers, hikers, equestrian, motorized, everyone.

Everyone has the right to use public lands.

Restricting those rights to only one sub group because you don't want to share is discrimination.
 

Tncdrew

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You balance it by keeping the trails open to everyone. Bikers, hikers, equestrian, motorized, everyone.

Everyone has the right to use public lands.

Restricting those rights to only one sub group because you don't want to share is discrimination.
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