Metal cloak 3.5 and death wobble

[Roky]

When you spend more on being a site sponsor than you made in a year and request to go back to being a regular member they lock you out of the account you’ve had for years here. They’ll also ignore all your emails asking to have access back. I stop in every once in a while to help if I can.

Brett

Welcome back Brett …..

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[Old Jeeper]

When you spend more on being a site sponsor than you made in a year and request to go back to being a regular member they lock you out of the account you’ve had for years here. They’ll also ignore all your emails asking to have access back. I stop in every once in a while to help if I can.

Brett

Rusty, did you go to the Off-Road Expo out in Pomona Ca. I think I did some business with you way back in the 2003-2011 time frame. SavageSun 4x4 Engineering. I remember talking with a Rusty back in those days was it you?

I was also going to SEMA but, you can lost in that show.

 

[rustyshakelford1]

Rusty, did you go to the Off-Road Expo out in Pomona Ca. I think I did some business with you way back in the 2003-2011 time frame. SavageSun 4x4 Engineering. I remember talking with a Rusty back in those days was it you?

I was also going to SEMA but, you can lost in that show.

that wasn’t me! Might’ve been rusty from rustys Offroad

brett

 

[Old Jeeper]

that wasn’t me! Might’ve been rusty from rustys Offroad

brett

YEP, that is who it was. I could not remember...

 

[roaniecowpony]

Trail distance is essentially a lever arm that pivots where the caster line hits the ground. The longer the lever arm, the greater the self-centering effect.

Mechanical trail & pneumatic trail are both components of trail distance. Lowering tire pressure and increasing caster both have the effect of increasing the trail distance.

Changing trail distance can mask deathwobble, but you're really just altering the speed & conditions that cause it to occur rather than fixing the worn or deflecting components.

This picture has the caster extremely exaggerated for clarity. That caster angle is drawn at about 25 degrees. It's a good depiction for basic understanding. But also misleading in one respect.

But, I want to show how caster effect in the more realistic numbers like 5-7 degrees is affected by lower pressures. So, I've added some lines to that drawing.

So, the red line is a rough, but much closer (eyeballed), approximation of our caster angles.

The blue line shows what happens in a hypothetical lower pressure than the original black line, and the gray line shows even lower pressure.

What you see, with the more realistic caster angle drawn in red, is that all the hypothetical pressures/ground lines show some portion of the contact patch ahead of the projected axis of the balljoints (caster angle axis). This area ahead of the intersection of the caster angle axis and the ground (purple circle) causes a reduction in the caster effect and all area behind that point has an increased caster effect.

As the pressure of the tire is reduced, the contact patch lengthens and there is more area in front of the caster angle axis and more length and area behind this point as well. But as the pressure is reduced, the portion of our drawing shown as "Mech. Trail" is also reduced. This means that there in an increasing percentage of the contact patch ahead of the caster axis as pressure is lowered, and therefore and decrease in the caster effect with lower pressures.

Conversely, as the tire pressure increases and the tire gets more round, the portion of the contact ahead of the caster axis decreases and theoretically would go to zero, if the tire could be truly round at the ground contact.

 

[firedude]

When you spend more on being a site sponsor than you made in a year and request to go back to being a regular member they lock you out of the account you’ve had for years here. They’ll also ignore all your emails asking to have access back. I stop in every once in a while to help if I can.

Brett

That leaves a bad taste.

 

[CarbonSteel]

True, but I'm not sure the factory caster angles are truly the cause. Modified... obviously anything is possible.

Agree; the sweet spot seems to be in the 6.x range for drivability (minimal or no wandering). I seem to recall my factory numbers were in the upper 4 or lower 5 range and you said, I would be hard pressed to think that low of an angle is the root for DW.

Crappy hydraulically crimped end links and bushings on trackbars, tie-rod, and draglinks combined with plastic balljoint internals is not a DW prevention recipe....

 

[Rodeoflyer]

I'm running 6.5 degs but it's destroyed my front driveshaft and it's popping pretty bad now.

 

[roaniecowpony]

I'm running 6.5 degs but it's destroyed my front driveshaft and it's popping pretty bad now.

I was wondering if problems would show up by rotating the axle for more caster but bad pinion angles. Do you use 4 Hi much?

 

[Rodeoflyer]

Oh yeah I would say a lot, several times a week in the winter and just about every weekend in the summer.

 

[roaniecowpony]

Oh yeah I would say a lot, several times a week in the winter and just about every weekend in the summer.

Thanks. Not sure where I'll end up on the caster. My shop doing the 3.5 Metalcloak belongs to a friend that is setting it up. I'll ask when I pick it up. In the long run, I may just change out the housing to one with my caster spec and pinion angles and maybe go to old school hubs. We'll see.

 

[Rodeoflyer]

It's definitely a concern with the stock 210 axle. The factory driveshaft has lasted 40k miles of hard use now so I might just slap another one on. They 'say' the aftermarket double cardan ones have a little more working range so I might go that route too. Not sure yet but was supposed to take care of this before winter hit and work got in the way. We had our first good snow and I needed to drive down to Grant, CO Thursday night during the storm. It was popping pretty bad at speed losing/gaining traction. I don't really notice it at low speed/4lo so it hasn't been on the upper radar but I need to fix it.

Just asked in member marketplace if anyone has an old stock one laying around in the garage after swapping it out. I'd just put another stock one on for now after hearing about the vibration issues with aftermarkets.

 

[Austintatious]

Well I guess I can join this club

3.5" GC and Synergy sector shaft brace on 37's for 12k miles now, pretty much since taking delivery. Tie rod, drag link, and steering stabilizer are OEM. I'm running 34psi in the 37's.

Was hearing the clicking when turning at slow speeds and started getting a slight back and forth wobble in the steering wheel when going over bumps/dips and railroad tracks at 30-40.

I torqued the lower ball joints myself (they needed at least a full turn) but that didn't change anything so I took it into a local shop yesterday to have them check it out.

• They said the clicking was coming from the Synergy sector shaft brace. Greased it and retorqued the mounting bolts. I haven't noticed any more clicking since then.
  
  
• They checked alignment on an actual alignment rack and said it was fine - caster shows to be 5.5/5.7 and said since I don't have any issues with wandering or the steering wheel returning to center they wouldn't recommend changing that.
  
  
• They checked torque on all lift components.
  
  
• They said there is play in the stock drag link at the pitman arm causing the wobble. Recommended the MC steering kit (Drag link, tie rod, steering stabilizer).

I'm probably going to pull the trigger on the MC kit this weekend or maybe even go with a 2.5 ton solid aluminum setup but wanted to hear anyone's feedback on the analysis so far.

 

[Rodeoflyer]

I will just say this.. go rock krawler, EVO or rockjock for suspension... those parts for me have been near bulletproof. I'm a heim/johnny joint/teflon ball type joint fan.. everything else using these hybrid 'soft' joint have failed.

I haven't used the JKS joints but I hear they are fantastic as well.

 

[Roky]

Well I guess I can join this club

3.5" GC and Synergy sector shaft brace on 37's for 12k miles now, pretty much since taking delivery. Tie rod, drag link, and steering stabilizer are OEM. I'm running 34psi in the 37's.

Was hearing the clicking when turning at slow speeds and started getting a slight back and forth wobble in the steering wheel when going over bumps/dips and railroad tracks at 30-40.

I torqued the lower ball joints myself (they needed at least a full turn) but that didn't change anything so I took it into a local shop yesterday to have them check it out.

• They said the clicking was coming from the Synergy sector shaft brace. Greased it and retorqued the mounting bolts. I haven't noticed any more clicking since then.
  
  
• They checked alignment on an actual alignment rack and said it was fine - caster shows to be 5.5/5.7 and said since I don't have any issues with wandering or the steering wheel returning to center they wouldn't recommend changing that.
  
  
• They checked torque on all lift components.
  
  
• They said there is play in the stock drag link at the pitman arm causing the wobble. Recommended the MC steering kit (Drag link, tie rod, steering stabilizer).

I'm probably going to pull the trigger on the MC kit this weekend or maybe even go with a 2.5 ton solid aluminum setup but wanted to hear anyone's feedback on the analysis so far.

Yeah, I see this a lot with lift kits and oem draglink and tie rod….. they are barely adequate for stock configuration that doesn’t leave the pavement…… Jeep really didn’t build the JL for wheelin, I understand why they did it…. BUT, they took it to far with the weight concerns for fuel mileage….aluminum knuckle, aluminum steering box, ball joints with plastic inserts and steering linkages made from recycled beer cans…..if you’re lifted and on 37s or bigger, and wheel your shit, then the faster you get rid of these things the better……just saying…….

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