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Looks like Edelbrock is getting closer to production.

Kurt0

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To provide some insight, the average IAT increase after a dyno pull was 12.6F. That's 3-5 WOT tests back to back with 30 second windows.

Our max tow testing with the Gladiator was a more extreme example. This testing was done at Baker Grade (6-7% grade) in the California desert with ambient temps of 110-112F and a 7400lb trailer. Baker Grade is used by the OE's to torture test cooling system components. We were at 50-100% throttle for 14-15 minutes and the average IAT's were 156F or roughly 46F over ambient. Considering the 110F ambient temp and extreme load we were happy with the intercooler systems performance.
and theres the numbers. đź‘Ť
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Not saying the magnuson kit is better or that the tvs1320 in insufficient because other than the magnuson kit having a larger supercharger in it, I don’t know the differences between the 2 kits. I’m just giving a counter point to why someone might choose the magnuson kit. Until someone runs both superchargers on the same vehicle with the same boost in exactly the same conditions, which is highly unlikely, the world may never know which is the better choice . That’s the beauty of these forums. We can all give points of view and without a proper comparison no one truly knows what is what.
 

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Not saying the magnuson kit is better or that the tvs1320 in insufficient because other than the magnuson kit having a larger supercharger in it, I don’t know the differences between the 2 kits. I’m just giving a counter point to why someone might choose the magnuson kit. Until someone runs both superchargers on the same vehicle with the same boost in exactly the same conditions, which is highly unlikely, the world may never know which is the better choice . That’s the beauty of these forums. We can all give points of view and without a proper comparison no one truly knows what is what.
This is a great discussion. 👌 i hear what you’re saying, i guess i just disagree. I think math removes the mystery. The 1900 will always be slightly more efficient than the 1320. Theres no getting around the mechanical advantage of that. You are 100% correct from an academic standpoint; the question is (for me anyway) “does that translate into a practical difference that actually matters?”

at these power levels, on this motor, we’re talking in the 2-2.5% efficiency gain range. And it stays in that range until you cross over to higher hp and boost. This is statistically insignificant, in my opinion. You may fee differently. You really would have to build your motor to truly take advantage of the larger blower In this case, and the 1320 is more than capable of blowing the block 6 ways from sunday on pure power delivery. The 1900 spun to the limit is probably capable of destroying the transmission.

You’ll see the nearly 10% efficiency gain of a large centrifugal style pay some dividends, but we know what the trade offs are of centrifugal vs tvs, and each end user has to decide how they want it to drive.

The kits with the larger 1900 blower are only making about 10hp more (from real wheel hp dyno’s ive seen so far, anyway) on a non emissions legal tune. if they ever publish the real dyno’s of An emissions legal tune, the graphs between the 1320 and the 1900 will have the 1900 coming out slightly ahead, but are going to be almost exact overlays. we can tell that by looking at their respective maps of adiabatic efficiency. all the kits have the same limiting factor in our case: cylinder pressure and emissions.

take a look at the compressor maps for the 1900 and the 1320 and play with the math a little on boost pressure and power. To figure out where on the map you are: take projected crank horsepower, and divide by 10 to convert to approximate lb/min compressor flow requirement. Divide that number by .74 to get the CFM requirement from that number. Divide CFM by .6 to convert to cubic meters per hour. Pressure ratio on the y axis is (14.7+boost level)/14.7. You can then read the compressor as a topographical map; you’ll see the island line with an efficiency number. Thats all the “back of the napkin“ math method that gets pretty close.

hope that helps...interested in your thoughts on these too.

Im definitely more in the edelbrock camp than i am the magnuson one right now for sure. Not to say the magnuson kit isnt good, or that their new tuner wont get it right here soon- i think they will. But i want 91 and 93 octane tuning that’s epa and 50 state legal. I want transmission tuning. I dont want to have to change blower pulley when i go to elevation and then swap it back when i come back down the way some of the magnuson guys have to...the edelbrock runs the smallest pulley available and controls the pressure via internal control. I just want to bolt the thing up and go 365 days a year, and imo 10 peak hp isnt worth anything that gets in the way of that, again imo. I also know for a fact that magnuson’s latest tune reduced their low end tq demand by 30% trying to get CARB and drivability right, and in one plot i was shown, it looks very similar to the Edelbrock plot posted a couple pages back. Im just not convinced its going to make more power despite the larger size, and im not sure what thermal load testing is being completed as of now, just that they cut the tq request.

i guess my only final point is this: i think the bigger decision is between “TVS style blower or Centrifugal style, based on how I want the car to drive”, because with the limitations of CARB compliance first and cylinder pressure next, it’s difficult/impossible to get the advantage out of of the larger 1900 blower. Im still researching too, and interested to see who has what data. Im going to make my decision on a blower this summer in hopes that KraftWerks gets CARB approval so a TVS and a Centri can get a real comparison, but if they push the alternator a foot lower in the engine bay the way other centri’s do, that’s probably going to be a non starter for me no matter how much power it makes.

Jeep Wrangler JL Looks like Edelbrock is getting closer to production. FBC58C1F-2FDF-4BAD-AD7B-3CCB3C32D241
Jeep Wrangler JL Looks like Edelbrock is getting closer to production. E97B4EC4-CB2A-4D35-807D-59B101543A74
 
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Honestly I have no intentions of boosting my Jeep anymore. At one point I would have been very interested but considering no one has had that much success with boosting these I continually lose interest more and more. I still check in on this forum occasionally to see if anyone has had any really good results but I’ve yet to see anything compelling. I just like to chime in with with contrary perspectives from time to time for shits and giggles.

What I would find most interesting though, would be if someone could tuck a pair of 3.5 ecoboost turbos along the sides the motor and make a little twin turbo kit. I don’t like all the hot side plumbing associated the prodigy kit otherwise I’d say that’s the way to go. I know a couple of people blew their motors up with those kits but I wouldn’t blame either failure on the kit itself even though I personally don’t like it. With a turbo you could run a electronic boost controller with multiple boost setting allowing you to only push things when you wanted and when you knew you had a good quality fuel.
 

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Honestly I have no intentions of boosting my Jeep anymore. At one point I would have been very interested but considering no one has had that much success with boosting these I continually lose interest more and more. I still check in on this forum occasionally to see if anyone has had any really good results but I’ve yet to see anything compelling. I just like to chime in with with contrary perspectives from time to time for shits and giggles.

What I would find most interesting though, would be if someone could tuck a pair of 3.5 ecoboost turbos along the sides the motor and make a little twin turbo kit. I don’t like all the hot side plumbing associated the prodigy kit otherwise I’d say that’s the way to go. I know a couple of people blew their motors up with those kits but I wouldn’t blame either failure on the kit itself even though I personally don’t like it. With a turbo you could run a electronic boost controller with multiple boost setting allowing you to only push things when you wanted and when you knew you had a good quality fuel.
Having the same sentiment as you. Been watching this forum and doing tons of research on all the options. Sat next my buddy at our kids bb game this evening, that put a Ripp on his last summer, and has had nothing but trouble out of it.
I think a roots might work better on these engines, but as many "boost" guys that I know that are familiar with the 3.6 simply say these engines are not made for any boost.
I had an allocation for a 392, but declined not knowing price. Rather than spending money now for more power, I'm going to stick with what I have, and pray that Jeep continues with the 392 and allows consumers to option it the way they want.
 

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In this motor, it comes down to cylinder pressure and tuning.

over on the Gladiator side of the house we’re working on forged engine internals. Stock, the tuning needs to be mild so the cylinder pressure stays in check. Centri blowers have great efficiency, but manifold pressure and cylinder pressure arent the same. A lot of big name tuners dont get this concept.

the problem with ripp is their tuning sucks. One thing i learned over my time working for a race shop and subsequently a major tuning firm is that the vast majority of tuners suck. If it requires more than WOT air fuel and timing, they just cant get it done. These motors are shallow piston crown, high compression, need egr and cam phasing adjusted, and complex.

i think edelbrock has it right. Magnuson has burned out cats, broken motors, had tuning issue, etc, but i think theyll have it right soon And will probably get carb approval in the future with reduced power. Kraftwerks has a good rep, and will probably get it right, but their jk kit isnt carb yet so i dont see their jl kit getting it. Procharger seems to run well, but likey wont ever try to get carb.

we are in a world now where what we used to call the “stage 2 bandit tuner” isnt going to survive Much longer. These ecu’s are too adaptive, too complex, there are too many requirements from the epa....the list goes on. a kit that says “just take it to your local tuner” needs to be considered carefully. The good tuners are out there, but it will involve a road trip for many.

Im eager to see who else gets across the goal line, but so far there is just one thats tuned the motor and the trans; has done thermal load testing; done tow testing; passed carb and epa; and has a truly complete tuning file.
 

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In this motor, it comes down to cylinder pressure and tuning.

over on the Gladiator side of the house we’re working on forged engine internals. Stock, the tuning needs to be mild so the cylinder pressure stays in check. Centri blowers have great efficiency, but manifold pressure and cylinder pressure arent the same. A lot of big name tuners dont get this concept.

the problem with ripp is their tuning sucks. One thing i learned over my time working for a race shop and subsequently a major tuning firm is that the vast majority of tuners suck. If it requires more than WOT air fuel and timing, they just cant get it done. These motors are shallow piston crown, high compression, need egr and cam phasing adjusted, and complex.

i think edelbrock has it right. Magnuson has burned out cats, broken motors, had tuning issue, etc, but i think theyll have it right soon And will probably get carb approval in the future with reduced power. Kraftwerks has a good rep, and will probably get it right, but their jk kit isnt carb yet so i dont see their jl kit getting it. Procharger seems to run well, but likey wont ever try to get carb.

we are in a world now where what we used to call the “stage 2 bandit tuner” isnt going to survive Much longer. These ecu’s are too adaptive, too complex, there are too many requirements from the epa....the list goes on. a kit that says “just take it to your local tuner” needs to be considered carefully. The good tuners are out there, but it will involve a road trip for many.

Im eager to see who else gets across the goal line, but so far there is just one thats tuned the motor and the trans; has done thermal load testing; done tow testing; passed carb and epa; and has a truly complete tuning file.
So my friend I mentioned above has a ripp on a Gladiator Rubicon. Is there any difference in JT and Wrangler engines? Hes had a nightmare with the back and forth and getting the tune right.
He has a catch can that is completely full of oil after every short drive. Has had it in the shop 3x, twice replacing rear main seal, and this last time with the actual head unit leaking oil.
Pertaining to the last sentence in your post, are you referring to the edelbrock system?
 

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So my friend I mentioned above has a ripp on a Gladiator Rubicon. Is there any difference in JT and Wrangler engines? Hes had a nightmare with the back and forth and getting the tune right.
He has a catch can that is completely full of oil after every short drive. Has had it in the shop 3x, twice replacing rear main seal, and this last time with the actual head unit leaking oil.
Pertaining to the last sentence in your post, are you referring to the edelbrock system?
as far as i inow the engine tuning is similar, with some added heat safeties for towing our higher rating.

the big difference is in the trans tuning. We dont lock up our torque converter as early as Jl in overdrive gears. There are ta request limits within the tcm that can be adjusted to improve this, but the schedule is very very different. Only Livernois Tuning and Edelbrock have been able to access the tcm tables correctly in the jl/jt successfully so far and understand the differences

this Is why i make transmission tuning one of my requirements for a supercharger package. Just my $.02

im just shooting entirely from the hip, but a full catch can all the time makes me think there is a cracked piston already and he needs to get a compression and leak down test done. Ripp has a reputation of blowing engines, they are running big power, and the shallow piston crown leads me to believe the piston ring land is cracked. This is the problem with using big blowers to try and eek out power. Putting a blower thats big for a v8 onto an unbuilt high compression NA V6 is a recipe for disaster, because even at 7-8psi manifold pressure; the cyl pressure is high enough to easily crack ringlands.
 
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So my friend I mentioned above has a ripp on a Gladiator Rubicon. Is there any difference in JT and Wrangler engines? Hes had a nightmare with the back and forth and getting the tune right.
He has a catch can that is completely full of oil after every short drive. Has had it in the shop 3x, twice replacing rear main seal, and this last time with the actual head unit leaking oil.
Pertaining to the last sentence in your post, are you referring to the edelbrock system?
re my last part: I havent picked a blower yet, but i am leaning towards edelbrock because @EForce-Tech are the only ones that have all that figured out so far. More will join in a couple years, but looking over efficiency maps and knowing what our limits are, i dont see tangible gains being had. If you let the tvs1320 off the chain with a built motor, yoo can make big power. Theres so much more the 1320 can do, that i havent really bought into the idea that i need a v8 sized blower on this thing To do what we need. A built motor can take a big blower, but the transmission cant. A 1900tvs off the chain would crush this gearbox. : and what is it i want to do? move big tires, an overland load, and a camping trailer at elevation.

If you want to race modded raptors, then you need a built motor, built trans, and a big blower. For 90%+ of us, the 1320 is more than what we will ever make use of. Its easy to over buy. Bigger tires. Bigger lift. Bigger blower. Going with a big blower is like going 40-42’s. This is America, and by all means do it and love your truck. But do it eyes wide open on what the potential side effects are of not doing it right.

This is just my $.02.
 
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Also @cmb396 i have not looked to see if the JL/JT engine has sufficient venting of the crank case for high flow applications. The motor simply wasnt intended to get high boost in its current form, and high cyl pressure from a blower CAN blow a rear main seal in absence of sufficient venting. It happens on even stock supercharged cars with the wick turned up all the time.

i recommend your friend get a compression/leak down to assess the condition of his pistons; and evaluate crank case venting capacity for rear main issues. The SiV3 and 1900TVS are big boy blowers meant for V8’s. Hell, the tv1900 is what comes stock on the ZR1 and CTS-V. Its a monster of a screw driver. And i think the SiV3 would be considered bigger(id have to check)
 

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Also @cmb396 i have not looked to see if the JL/JT engine has sufficient venting of the crank case for high flow applications. The motor simply wasnt intended to get high boost in its current form, and high cyl pressure from a blower CAN blow a rear main seal in absence of sufficient venting. It happens on even stock supercharged cars with the wick turned up all the time.

i recommend your friend get a compression/leak down to assess the condition of his pistons; and evaluate crank case venting capacity for rear main issues. The SiV3 and 1900TVS are big boy blowers meant for V8’s. Hell, the tv1900 is what comes stock on the ZR1 and CTS-V. Its a monster of a screw driver. And i think the SiV3 would be considered bigger(id have to check)
I’m a Chevy guy and just so you know the LS9 ZR1 has a tvs2300 and the LT5 ZR1 has a tvs2650. Carry on.
 

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Also @cmb396 i have not looked to see if the JL/JT engine has sufficient venting of the crank case for high flow applications. The motor simply wasnt intended to get high boost in its current form, and high cyl pressure from a blower CAN blow a rear main seal in absence of sufficient venting. It happens on even stock supercharged cars with the wick turned up all the time.

i recommend your friend get a compression/leak down to assess the condition of his pistons; and evaluate crank case venting capacity for rear main issues. The SiV3 and 1900TVS are big boy blowers meant for V8’s. Hell, the tv1900 is what comes stock on the ZR1 and CTS-V. Its a monster of a screw driver. And i think the SiV3 would be considered bigger(id have to check)
I'm know he did a compression test, and every cylinder was fine. The shop that has it seems to be stumped, and Ripp can't seem to get the tune correct.
I have always had vetts as well. Current is a H/C/I C6 Z06, 622whp/550tq. Have eaten may centrifugal FI cars lunch, but never raced a roots car.
 

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I'm know he did a compression test, and every cylinder was fine. The shop that has it seems to be stumped, and Ripp can't seem to get the tune correct.
I have always had vetts as well. Current is a H/C/I C6 Z06, 622whp/550tq. Have eaten may centrifugal FI cars lunch, but never raced a roots car.
something doesn't add up in my mind. That much oil blowing by to fill a catch can is an issue most likely in the pistons, because I believe the SC they use is divorced from the oil feed line. If I am incorrect, then it is possible that oil is being pumped through a blown compressor into the track and the catch can is getting it. If it IS infact divorced, then someone else needs to do the compression test. Excessive blow by is almost always piston rings not seating or piston ring lands cracked. On the JL/JT, you will see more oil in your catch can the first couple thousand miles than you do afterwords be a substantial margin because of ring seat. But to fill it? nah.

the other thing to remember is that there are many times where a compression test is not sufficient. it is possible for a motor to still make compression numbers range with a cracked piston ring land, and fail a leak down test, which is why both are needed (all my old school EJ25 guys are nodding their heads solemnly right now...). It only takes one good detonation event to break a piston. And with the volume of air the blower Ripp is using is moving? It might have done it on cylinder pressure alone. There is another tuner I'll leave nameless, swearing up and down that anything at 8psi and under is good to go. This is not true, and brings serious questions into my mind on what kind of stress testing this company is actually doing. Cylinder pressure and manifold (boost) pressure are not the same....the "bigger is badder, and badder is better" bug is going to bite people in the ass trying to put these gigantic blowers on this motor. Mark my words, as more blowers come to market, the demand for forged internals will shoot up, and so will built transmissions when they start breaking. A smaller blower is going to prove to be the long term better option, and then once the motor is built, still be able to double manifold pressure and make awesome power. But trying to skirt IAT's on efficiency maps by running a blower that is considered large for a V8 is just likely lighting a fuse on this engine.

new shop. Compression and leak down. My money is still on a cracked piston ring land, probably on one of the cylinders closest to the firewall. @EForce-Tech might be able to comment on what cylinders needed the most protection with more authority than I can.
 

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something doesn't add up in my mind. That much oil blowing by to fill a catch can is an issue most likely in the pistons, because I believe the SC they use is divorced from the oil feed line. If I am incorrect, then it is possible that oil is being pumped through a blown compressor into the track and the catch can is getting it. If it IS infact divorced, then someone else needs to do the compression test. Excessive blow by is almost always piston rings not seating or piston ring lands cracked. On the JL/JT, you will see more oil in your catch can the first couple thousand miles than you do afterwords be a substantial margin because of ring seat. But to fill it? nah.

the other thing to remember is that there are many times where a compression test is not sufficient. it is possible for a motor to still make compression numbers range with a cracked piston ring land, and fail a leak down test, which is why both are needed (all my old school EJ25 guys are nodding their heads solemnly right now...). It only takes one good detonation event to break a piston. And with the volume of air the blower Ripp is using is moving? It might have done it on cylinder pressure alone. There is another tuner I'll leave nameless, swearing up and down that anything at 8psi and under is good to go. This is not true, and brings serious questions into my mind on what kind of stress testing this company is actually doing. Cylinder pressure and manifold (boost) pressure are not the same....the "bigger is badder, and badder is better" bug is going to bite people in the ass trying to put these gigantic blowers on this motor. Mark my words, as more blowers come to market, the demand for forged internals will shoot up, and so will built transmissions when they start breaking. A smaller blower is going to prove to be the long term better option, and then once the motor is built, still be able to double manifold pressure and make awesome power. But trying to skirt IAT's on efficiency maps by running a blower that is considered large for a V8 is just likely lighting a fuse on this engine.

new shop. Compression and leak down. My money is still on a cracked piston ring land, probably on one of the cylinders closest to the firewall. @EForce-Tech might be able to comment on what cylinders needed the most protection with more authority than I can.
YOu are correct, the Ripp uses a self contained unit, V3 I believe?
 

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YOu are correct, the Ripp uses a self contained unit, V3 I believe?
That's what I thought, thanks for confirming. he needs a leakdown test for sure.

So, for perspective, that same blower is used to make over 600hp on a 5.0L Mustang and nearly 800 on a 6.2L Camaro at the same boost level Ripp is running on a stock JL engine. I mean, pardon my french, but that's fucking nuts. As far as the TVS1900 goes, Cadillac CTS-V's are making damn near 700whp on that blower. Again, does that sound like a good idea on our motors? I'm not convinced. It's not to say it CAN'T be done, just that there are a TON more considerations to put in frame than simply what the manifold boost pressure and AIT's are. I think it will be easier to get the TVS1900 in line and safe than it will some of these gargantuan centrifugal blowers, and I look forward to seeing what Magnuson is able to finalize and what stress testing gets done....but they have not been issue free, and they are fixing a lot of their problems by pulling the power out. So is there still an advantage? People will have to judge for themselves.

I mean, not to be a debbie downer; and if anyone wants to build for big power- this is America. Go for it, all I want is to see the video of your JL doing a wheelie while I drink a beer. But do you really need a blower that big for a stock JL wrangler motor? To get your big tires and camping trailer over the mountain? I think the answer is not just "no" but "No, and I don't even want it". It's no different than trying to use a 6.4L hemi on Dana 35 axles. It's just too fucking big and too much thrust for the rest of the components. For people wanting more power with some drop in pistons, the 1320 has plenty of headroom left in it if you want to let it off the leash. By all means, people should pick the kit they think fits their needs the best. I'm just trying to add some perspective to the conversation on exactly how big these blowers are, for people who don't know any different. There is a guy on the Glad side getting his motor and trans built, and going to use a massive Rotrex blower to try and hit 600whp, so he can smoke raptors. I think that's cool as all hell....but he knows what he is in for. I think most of us fall more into the category of "i got my jeep tall and heavy, and I need it to drive more gooder-er, and I dont have $25-35k for a hemi swap. What are my options?"

$.02 Bummer your friend is having issues...i hope they are able to sort them out, and i hope Im wrong about the piston.
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