Livernois Mycalibrator Tune Claims 50HP Gains (on E85) for V6 JL Wrangler

[Toycrusher]

Not just the rev hang but also the wonky tuning coasting at low rpm.

Flywheel fixed my low rpm surge. But it would be nice if the tune helped there too!

Sponsored

 

[Jebiruph]

Flywheel fixed my low rpm surge. But it would be nice if the tune helped there too!

My low rpm surge was gone after a firmware update.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

OK, sorry everyone for taking so long to reply, we were working out the fact that we weren't officially sponsors, but now we are, so we can answer all of your questions, concerns, and talk specifics

So ~$750 all in? If this can disable ESS I can live without the Tazer.

that is correct, and yes, we can disable ESS, and do it by default. We have had some people that want it on (why, I have no idea, this is about the worst stop/start I have ever experienced on a vehicle), and we can oblige that request as well

I can’t speak for everyone but I’m sure most appreciate the team getting on here and answering questions themselves. It’s great to see active involvement!

I noted I have the JL Mini Tazer and would want the features from that. Yes I’ll need to do a speedo adjustment for larger tires but It’s many of the other goodies (ie rear camera on with my blinker). I’m a pretty uneducated with it comes to tunes so forgive for the noob questions, but I have a few!

For the tunes, do I plug it in, tune it, unplug it and it’s good to go? If that is the case wouldn’t that mean after I’ve set the tune I want I can then plug the Tazer back in and use it, or am I missing something?

Along those same lines... Because we have to purchase the bypass cable does the mean the Tazer JL Mini is still able to be plugged in at the same time?

If we are factory unlocking the PCM does that mean the dealer will know it and void the warranty?

Have you done any dynos with and without a CAI installed to determine if gains are larger?

e85... just so it’s clear, you’re saying that this engine has the capability for e85, it just needs a software tweak or something? Do you have some sort of hard evidence of this or is it just your experience with the engine that you believe it’s capable?

On your website, just the tuner only is on sale for $499 down from $599 and I see that the tuner and unlock is $699 so my math says normally the unlock is $100 more. Is there sale on the tuner/unlock combo for $599 that reflects the discount off the tuner?

so we can't do all of the functions you mention, however, our tuner does not need to be plugged in constantly (although you can use it to monitor aspects of the truck and offer a window mount if you wanted to), so you can use other items. I will say we are adding more and more features to it all of the time though.

The CAI's we have tested have had very little impact in power, but they do have gains, especially at higher RPM where the stock airbox runs out of airflow.

As for the engine having capability for E85, that's easy. Every flex fuel vehicle FCA offers is a pentastar engine. The JL uses an electronic returnless fuel system that live monitors, and controls the fuel flow and pressures and increases fuel flow proactively, something that is extremely important in enabling this as well.

As for the pricing, the tuner alone, is indeed on sale, but you must already have our PCM unlock for our tuner, but the bundle still saves you $25 compared to doing it separately. normally this savings is around 125.

Sounds good. But do you mean 30000 permutations or 30000 parameters?

Also, how good are these with export RHD (3.6) models and "foreign" fuel? Most say the fuel in Australia isn't very good.

Lastly, what if I put on a higher flow exhaust, aftermarket intake and better ignition coils (all are options available for the 3.6 now), would a custom dyno tune give better results than this?

30k parameters. I believe it's actually 38,450, so I was low balling. Now, some of them don't get used (there is a whole batch dedicated to Bi-Fuel CNG applications only, which we do use in our alternative fuel conversions as well). As for export fuel, your 95 is basically our 91, your 98 our 93, and we do these all of the time for all kinds of applications all around the world.

As for the mods, the intake and exhaust can help, but you're literally better doing anything with your money than wasting it on ignition coils. The stock coils have no issues supplying enough current for E85 and 12# of boost, and likely further. that takes a tremendous amount of energy to ignite that much fuel at that high of cylinder pressure.

As for custom tuning, honestly, these things when you have the tune proper, will have 0 benefit in custom tuning because the calibration already takes in all the variables that matter.

im assuming this a 'e85' tune and not a flex fuel tune. that is, when you run the tune, you need to have 100 percent e85 in your tank. it is my understanding that to run flex, you need to run an ethanol sensor somewhere in the fuel system so that i can make adjustments based on the percent of ethanol in your gas. does the jeep have that sensor? can you run flex or simply e85 or gas depending on what is in your tank?

i have a subaru wrx that runs either e85 or premium. its an either-or thing. i dont run flex though there are kits out there now for subarus that include a flex sensor. to run e85, i had to go to larger injectors. the car is not a high pressure fuel inject system. if it had been the tuning would have been more complicated. i did the tune myself over a period of about a month. using cobb tuning hardware, i downloaded a 'starter' map and modified it as i went along. i upgraded the injectors, larger turbo, larger intercooler and cat turbo back exhaust. ive been running this setup for almost ten years. to do the tune, i used a laptop and a wideband oxygen sensor that was added to my exhaust system just after the turbo housing.

if im going from one fuel to the other, i completely drain the tank of the last bit of gas or e85 and doing that can be difficult depending on the car. being able to run flex would remove that requirement.

This is true flex fuel. Fill it with the gasoline grade of your choice (keeping in mind that a 93/FFV tune requires at least 93 octane, and an 87/FFV tune allows the use of 87). These have the ability to complex model the ethanol content of the fuel, it just requires a 5-10 minute drive cycle after filling for it to learn the ethanol content. No additional sensors required. It looks at fuel flow, fuel trims, HEGO temps, coolant temps, modeled cat temps, knock sensor readings, and dozens of other items to help determine the ethanol content.

We even go so far as we modify the oil life system to factor in that E85 degrades oil quicker.

There is absolutely no reason to datalog these for adjustments because we've already spent the 1.5 years in developing the calibration and nailing it so it's a tune and go approach.

I’m confused... I thought e85 was flex fuel.

well, our tuning, yes. We are the people that brought flex fuel to the aftermarket for Chrysler, and are the only ones offering it for a bunch of different FCA applications. But a lot of people out there are misleading their customers, and calling a dedicated E85 tune "flex fuel", when they aren't. ours, however, definitely is.

Just to add another question to the mix.

Does your tune remove rev hang for us manual guys? If it does, hang on to your butt because everyone who owns a manual is going to want one whether it makes more power or not.

Second, if it does remove rev hang, does it still pass emissions tests or does it come with an off-highway use only statement?

Thanks

so, this is a request no one had made yet. We likely can figure it out, but would need to have a manual truck in here again for extended testing and development. This is not a feature that can be figured out without in-person seat time. However, we believe we found one locally that may be interested in this.

I don’t need your condescending reply. It was a valid question and the tuner understood that and replied as such.

JKs were known for heat soaking without any added horsepower whatsoever (they had pentastars in them). It’s not about the engine, it’s about the engine parameters, fan triggers and the environment. So, adding horsepower and running them in high rev and high heat and crawling at snails pace conditions will always affect the performance. And the tuner understands that and took all of that into account.

increased ignition timing lowers heat, and we do modify the fan temps to help aid in cooling as well. So even if you skip the FFV tuning, you can still see reduction in temps. Moving to E85 helps even more since it helps cool the engine further, and allows even more timing for reduced temps.

50hp from a tune in an NA application is an incredible claim. 10-15 hp is more typical on a tune that doesn't sacrifice driveability or reliability. I'm not saying this claim is false, it's just out of the ordinary.

Not really on modern vehicles, especially ones that are high compression, knock limited, and have variable cam timing that allows for changes of the intake and exhaust cam independently. we see 20-40 on 93 from almost all of the modern V6 engines, and ethanol allows for even more gains.

I agree with you, but with the crazy high compression on the new Pentastar and considering the fact that we run them on regular and they go, I’m sure going 93 octane and tuning them will uncork more than normal with a tune. I’d love to see how neutered the factory timing is on these to run 87

agreed, the huge bump in compression that this generation got made it so FCA actually had to pull power back to allow the use of 87. even a stock truck, after a few tanks of premium, will make more power because it's not constantly pulling out timing.

Agreed. I had an Edelbrock supercharger, custom tuning, and S&B intake on my 2013 Pentastar JKR and it produced right at 100hp/100tq gain to the rear wheels (dyno verified).

50hp with a tuner alone, especially in a useable part of the powerband (I personally don't care about gains at the rev limiter as I don't spend any time there) is really impressive. And of even more interest to me is the ~30hp/15tq at 2500-3000rpm (which anyone with a MT spends a considerable amount of time in) and the massive cleaning up of the powerband in the 4000-4500rpm range, which is passing/steep grade revs. Seeing that drop at 4000rpm in the baseline hp/tq curves is UGLY. What a terrible place to have a hole in your powerband on a breadbox that gets on the highway!

Personally though, I haven't had the greatest experience with tuning the Pentastar. I went through well over 100 tune versions on my JKR, from custom data logging with a wideband o2 for mail order tunes from multiple "gurus" with a Diablosport, to multiple HP tuners licenses and days on the dyno and the street, to tearing apart the entire supercharger and putting it back together on the engine again to ensure I didn't dick up something mechanical on the install, to replacing gas pedals, throttle bodies, switches, sensors, MAFs, and even the entire PCM. And after all that, with a brand new PCM and the canned Edelbrock tune on an SCT programmer (which should've been the most polished available, if not the most powerful, since it is what the dealership is authorized to install if you choose keep your Jeep warranty with the Edelbrock blower), it still never was what I would consider "right." There were flat spots in the throttle curve, there were random hiccups, and there were times it felt like a parachute had been released behind the Jeep during light acceleration or with the cruise control on (the surging cruise was almost unbearable at times).

To be clear, none of that had anything to do with Livernois. I've some exposure to these guys because they frequent the Hellcat boards so I know their reputation and I trust they aren't fly-by-night or peddlers in snake oil, but after all the nonsense I went through trying to tune the Pentastar, I never gave any thought to tuning the Hellcat. And, until I saw this thread I could honestly say I'd given no thought to messing with the tuning on my incoming JLUR either.

My JLUR hasn't even arrived yet, so I DEFINITELY won't be messing with the tuning in the first 10k miles or more (until I'm comfortable there won't be any significant warranty issues) and even after that I'm not so sure. I'm going to follow this thread and these like them VERY closely, but I'm afraid someone else will have to be the guinea pig this time.

Honestly, most companies that rely on 3rd party software struggle with it because they're reliant on what that software has for features/settings in it, and have to trust the descriptions someone puts in them for what it does, let alone understand how they all play well together. Since we reverse engineer the software in house, we start out with an understanding on how everything functions (on paper) from the word go. Then we get to verify those paper theories work. We're actively working with many supercharger companies to make their calibrations better, and even have a magnuson equipped JLU that we are doing development with now.

Yes E85 and Flex fuel are the same thing. Looks like the 50hp gains are with E85 or 93 octane. Mail order tunes can be great if its not your DD. If there is an issure with the tune you will need to send it back for an adjustment. A street tune is best with cold starts etc. But most tuners don't like to spend 2-3 days tuning 1 car.

I would also like to know if this can be put back to stock easily so the dealers software won't recognize any modifications from your tune.

the 50hp is on the E85, the 93 is about 10-15 less, but still a big gain. And this is where we differ from most tuning places. We do the work on our own vehicles. our FFV calibration has been tested for over a year before release in just about every environment possible. from -20F to 110F. so those issues don't happen with us.

And even when we do custom tunes, we spend multiple days on it because we're about quality over quantity. we don't release a vehicle until we've done all of that testing already (when possible), but since the tunes are already developed in advance, that testing and tweaking doesn't need to happen.

As for dealers and going back to stock, we always recommend being open and honest with your dealer. We do not condone warranty fraud, and honestly, most dealers we have worked with are actually really receptive to light mods.

flex means you can run e85 and you can run regular gas or any mixture in between. say you use e85 around town, but go on a trip and there are no e85 stations on your trip, so you fill up at station x and you have some e85 in the tank, later you fill up again with gas and now your ethanol content is around 10 percent (which is what most gas is today, 10 percent ethanol). so you car computer that controls the fueling injects less fuel because there is more energy in a gallon of gas than in a gallon of ethanol. if you vary the percentage of ethanol significantly, you need to vary the fueling accordingly. thats what a flex fuel sensor does. it can detect the percent of ethanol in your fuel.

e85 is a great fuel. its cheap race gas. in runs cooler, is less susceptible to detonation and some say it keeps your motor top end 'cleaner'. it also absorbs water and you need to make sure you dont let it sit in your tank idle for a long period of time.

e85 tunes for most cars are almost pointless unless they are turbo charged or super charged. some performance engines that dont have forced induction do benefit if adjustments can be made to timing and variable compression (by changing cam timing) but its something rarely seen on non high performance motors. im a bit surprised to see someone doing it for the 3.6 jeep motor. im also surprised that they were able to get 50 more HP out of the motor. turbo is a different story. i went for 220 at the crank to 300 at the wheels on my subaru but a bigger turbo and intercooler and after market exhaust allowing me to push more air and fuel through the system were key.

compression is key here on why we do it. And because there are no parts changes necessary. same thing we see on Ford coyote engines and GM's DI LT1 engines. the high static compression means they have to limit power on lower grade fuels, which makes them perfect candidates for FFV tuning.

I'd consider this just for for the Transmission shift modifications. The damn thing waits way too long to downshift when you are heading up a hill. If I keep my acellerator in the same position going up even the slightest incline I will loose 5 - 10 MPH before it downshifts.

It is a big improvement. but honestly, it may not even need to downshift with the extra pwoer.

Are you planning on offering any tunes for the 2.0? Also, any idea if the 2.0 is flex fuel capable?

unfortunately nothing on the horizon for the 2.0, it uses a vastly different ECM

Not just the rev hang but also the wonky tuning coasting at low rpm.

We can definitely get one in here to test this specifically

 

[AnnDee4444]

As for the mods, the intake and exhaust can help, but you're literally better doing anything with your money than wasting it on ignition coils. The stock coils have no issues supplying enough current for E85 and 12# of boost, and likely further. that takes a tremendous amount of energy to ignite that much fuel at that high of cylinder pressure.

This is good to hear. I had serious doubts about the claims being made...

 

[Toycrusher]

Toycrusher said:
Just to add another question to the mix.

Does your tune remove rev hang for us manual guys? If it does, hang on to your butt because everyone who owns a manual is going to want one whether it makes more power or not.

Second, if it does remove rev hang, does it still pass emissions tests or does it come with an off-highway use only statement?

Thanks

so, this is a request no one had made yet. We likely can figure it out, but would need to have a manual truck in here again for extended testing and development. This is not a feature that can be figured out without in-person seat time. However, we believe we found one locally that may be interested in this.

So you have ONE buyer lined up! Time to divert funds for development!

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

So you have ONE buyer lined up! Time to divert funds for development!

Honestly, we like challenges, big and small. it helps build out our knowledge-base and understanding, and you never know when something becomes useful again in the future.

 

[BrntWS6]

As for dealers and going back to stock, we always recommend being open and honest with your dealer. We do not condone warranty fraud, and honestly, most dealers we have worked with are actually really receptive to light mods.

I would not go as far as calling it warranty fraud, more life protecting your wallet from unreasonable dealers. And there are plenty of them. There are many reports of warranties being flagged from minor mods completely unrelated to the problem. A guy on here had a mopar lift installed by a dealer and a different dealer refused to do any work on it.

So I take it the answer is no, it cannot be easily put back to stock. Which is fine, but people will want to know that before laying down $750.00.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I would not go as far as calling it warranty fraud, more life protecting your wallet from unreasonable dealers. And there are plenty of them. There are many reports of warranties being flagged from minor mods completely unrelated to the problem. A guy on here had a mopar lift installed by a dealer and a different dealer refused to do any work on it.

So I take it the answer is no, it cannot be easily put back to stock. Which is fine, but people will want to know that before laying down $750.00.

It actually can be put back to stock, calibration wise, but remember, it does require physically modifying the PCM to be able to tune it, something that, while unlikely they would dig into, is a permanent, forever, thing. the vast majority of reasons that people ask "can it be put back to stock" is followed with "so the dealer doesn't know I tuned it". Hence being proactive on the stance. the rest of the times usually amount to "can I put it back to stock so the dealer doesn't blow away the tune" in which our answer is our tuning actually prevents an accidental overwriting of the calibration. So this would not be necessary. But a stock calibration could be programmed back into it with our MyCalibrator Tuner

 

[tampahoosier]

It actually can be put back to stock, calibration wise, but remember, it does require physically modifying the PCM to be able to tune it, something that, while unlikely they would dig into, is a permanent, forever, thing. the vast majority of reasons that people ask "can it be put back to stock" is followed with "so the dealer doesn't know I tuned it". Hence being proactive on the stance. the rest of the times usually amount to "can I put it back to stock so the dealer doesn't blow away the tune" in which our answer is our tuning actually prevents an accidental overwriting of the calibration. So this would not be necessary. But a stock calibration could be programmed back into it with our MyCalibrator Tuner

So you're saying there is a chance!! Do you happen to have a before and after picture of the PCM? I'm curious to see how it looks pre/post modification. And also, if it's easy for the dealer to spot after it's done; or if it requires them taking the PCM out, taking it apart, then visually inspecting it to see the physical alteration made.

Also, just so we are clear. If I change the tune then set it back to stock, is there somewhere this information is recorded where it can then be pulled on a report later confirming to a dealer changes were made? Take the Tazer for instance, you can tell it to revert to stock settings, unplug it, and there is no way for the dealer to ever know you had it on there.

I understand you're stance, and agree you should not be advocating for us to lie and cheat the stealerships. We just know the dealers generally are NOT inclined to like, and will make notes, that you have made a tune. I can 98.999% guarantee if you go in with an engine issue under warranty and stroll in there with a tune Jeep and/or the dealer will say it's the tune and not repair it. Why? Because it's an opportunity to avoid paying the cost to a customer that made a modification they didn't approve of or license (ie through Mopar). Hell as noted you can have a Mopar lift installed AT a dealer and the work still won't be honored. Bottom line!

With all that being said, I'm actually still highly interested lol. I feel that this and a Hamburger would/could be a pretty dope combo. I'm actually taking delivery of a Gladiator Rubicon any day/hour now (sorry, I'm still snooping on these JL boards even though I swung to the dark side) and have been interested in a reliable tune for a while now. I like your track history and very up front answers and no bs attitude.

 

[BrntWS6]

It actually can be put back to stock, calibration wise, but remember, it does require physically modifying the PCM to be able to tune it, something that, while unlikely they would dig into, is a permanent, forever, thing. the vast majority of reasons that people ask "can it be put back to stock" is followed with "so the dealer doesn't know I tuned it". Hence being proactive on the stance. the rest of the times usually amount to "can I put it back to stock so the dealer doesn't blow away the tune" in which our answer is our tuning actually prevents an accidental overwriting of the calibration. So this would not be necessary. But a stock calibration could be programmed back into it with our MyCalibrator Tuner

Got it.

 

[rubileon]

30k parameters. I believe it's actually 38,450, so I was low balling. Now, some of them don't get used (there is a whole batch dedicated to Bi-Fuel CNG applications only, which we do use in our alternative fuel conversions as well). As for export fuel, your 95 is basically our 91, your 98 our 93, and we do these all of the time for all kinds of applications all around the world.

As for the mods, the intake and exhaust can help, but you're literally better doing anything with your money than wasting it on ignition coils. The stock coils have no issues supplying enough current for E85 and 12# of boost, and likely further. that takes a tremendous amount of energy to ignite that much fuel at that high of cylinder pressure.

As for custom tuning, honestly, these things when you have the tune proper, will have 0 benefit in custom tuning because the calibration already takes in all the variables that matter.

Thanks and you guys seem to know what you're doing.

Two more questions, if you don't mind...

1. There are reports from people who've added superchargers to the JL where they describe something like the factory ECU gradually unlearning the tune added from the handheld tuner and going back to stock, needing the tune to be put back in. Is this a thing?

2. Bonus question really... your site says it supports 2015+ JKs as well but the 3.6 has been there since 2012 in JKs. Is there something different in the 2015+ models?

I think I will be going for one of your tuners.

 

[beaups]

So you have ONE buyer lined up! Time to divert funds for development!

Make that two.

 

[VerservJL]

I already have my order in. I had their tuner for my turbo ford fusion and it was spectacular in every way. Every single part of that car was improved. In fact I sold my Pulsar once this was released. Just waiting to have the dealer check some stuff next week and then I will be ready to go. I will give an in depth review at some point.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

So you're saying there is a chance!! Do you happen to have a before and after picture of the PCM? I'm curious to see how it looks pre/post modification. And also, if it's easy for the dealer to spot after it's done; or if it requires them taking the PCM out, taking it apart, then visually inspecting it to see the physical alteration made.

Also, just so we are clear. If I change the tune then set it back to stock, is there somewhere this information is recorded where it can then be pulled on a report later confirming to a dealer changes were made? Take the Tazer for instance, you can tell it to revert to stock settings, unplug it, and there is no way for the dealer to ever know you had it on there.

I understand you're stance, and agree you should not be advocating for us to lie and cheat the stealerships. We just know the dealers generally are NOT inclined to like, and will make notes, that you have made a tune. I can 98.999% guarantee if you go in with an engine issue under warranty and stroll in there with a tune Jeep and/or the dealer will say it's the tune and not repair it. Why? Because it's an opportunity to avoid paying the cost to a customer that made a modification they didn't approve of or license (ie through Mopar). Hell as noted you can have a Mopar lift installed AT a dealer and the work still won't be honored. Bottom line!

With all that being said, I'm actually still highly interested lol. I feel that this and a Hamburger would/could be a pretty dope combo. I'm actually taking delivery of a Gladiator Rubicon any day/hour now (sorry, I'm still snooping on these JL boards even though I swung to the dark side) and have been interested in a reliable tune for a while now. I like your track history and very up front answers and no bs attitude.

Technically there are ways that they can detect this, and any item that reprograms any part of the vehicle. Or, at least have signs that lead to it having been programmed before. Every time you program a module it resets certain counters within that module and sometimes other modules. So lets say you take a vehicle in immediately after reverting to stock, it will show something low like 3-30 key cycles and 1-300 miles since the last reset. that is going to immediately point them down the path that something isn't right. Now, there are tell tale physical signs as well, as you're opening, and closing the PCM, and while it's doesn't look mangled, a keen eye will know.

Thanks and you guys seem to know what you're doing.

Two more questions, if you don't mind...

1. There are reports from people who've added superchargers to the JL where they describe something like the factory ECU gradually unlearning the tune added from the handheld tuner and going back to stock, needing the tune to be put back in. Is this a thing?

2. Bonus question really... your site says it supports 2015+ JKs as well but the 3.6 has been there since 2012 in JKs. Is there something different in the 2015+ models?

I think I will be going for one of your tuners.

this is definitely not a thing, IF tuned properly. the issue is that there are a lot of things to change on these, and you have to do it properly for it to be consistent. the PCM never reverts back to stock, but it can learn behavior and adapt to certain situations. One of which being if it makes too much power, it can pull it back. but this is technically different than reverting abck to stock.

As for the 12-14 JK, we are working on adding support for them as well. But flex fuel for the time being is a JL/JLU/JT specific thing as of now. Tuning though, is not.

Make that two.

Dang, we'll be rich! LOL but seriously, if this is a thing the community wants, we can definitely entertain it.

I already have my order in. I had their tuner for my turbo ford fusion and it was spectacular in every way. Every single part of that car was improved. In fact I sold my Pulsar once this was released. Just waiting to have the dealer check some stuff next week and then I will be ready to go. I will give an in depth review at some point.

That's great to hear! we look forward to it, and appreciate the kind words!

 

[rubileon]

So lets say you take a vehicle in immediately after reverting to stock, it will show something low like 3-30 key cycles and 1-300 miles since the last reset. that is going to immediately point them down the path that something isn't right. Now, there are tell tale physical signs as well, as you're opening, and closing the PCM, and while it's doesn't look mangled, a keen eye will know.

For once I feel like I haven't wasted time in a forum!

this is definitely not a thing, IF tuned properly. the issue is that there are a lot of things to change on these, and you have to do it properly for it to be consistent. the PCM never reverts back to stock, but it can learn behavior and adapt to certain situations. One of which being if it makes too much power, it can pull it back. but this is technically different than reverting abck to stock.

As for the 12-14 JK, we are working on adding support for them as well. But flex fuel for the time being is a JL/JLU/JT specific thing as of now. Tuning though, is not.

Would your tune adjust itself to higher flow intakes and exhausts added later and if so, is it going to fully utilise the maximum flows possible?

Thanks and well done on being transparent about the mods and dealerships. You guys stand out from the rest of parts manufacturers out there.

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