Keep Me Sane: Death Wobble Has Me Considering Selling

[Roky]

I agree with that thought. It seems to me that many of the people experiencing death wobble, are the ones that have modified parts of their Jeeps suspension, tires, and or steering, but failed to recognize the geometry of how the components worked together has also changed. I have yet to see any Jeep, even from the early models, that has had that problem from the factory. It is easy for many to swap out parts but not consider the full effect of the changes.

DW happens on stockers, most of the time it’s worn parts or loose fasteners. Where as lifted Jeep’s, more likely to be geometry related. But either scenario is not exclusive to either scenario……..

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[ODDs]

I agree with that thought. It seems to me that many of the people experiencing death wobble, are the ones that have modified parts of their Jeeps suspension, tires, and or steering, but failed to recognize the geometry of how the components worked together has also changed. I have yet to see any Jeep, even from the early models, that has had that problem from the factory. It is easy for many to swap out parts but not consider the full effect of the changes, especially over time.

Our completely stock 2019 Sahara experienced it the first time we took it to snow country when 6 months and 5000 miles old. Had to drive 45 mph on the highway with our hazards on the rest of the way. Dealer replaced the steering stabilizer. Happened again one year later, this time in Phoenix heat. Scared the wits out of my wife. When she pulled off the highway, a car pulled up beside and said something to the effect of 'Holy shit, are you OK? I've never seen anything like that'. Dealer replaced the steering stabilizer. The next time it happens I'm going to replace it myself with a Fox TS stabilizer.

 

[Flybaby]

Our completely stock 2019 Sahara experienced it the first time we took it to snow country when 6 months and 5000 miles old. Had to drive 45 mph on the highway with our hazards on the rest of the way. Dealer replaced the steering stabilizer. Happened again one year later, this time in Phoenix heat. Scared the wits out of my wife. When she pulled off the highway, a car pulled up beside and said something to the effect of 'Holy shit, are you OK? I've never seen anything like that'. Dealer replaced the steering stabilizer. The next time it happens I'm going to replace it myself with a Fox TS stabilizer.

Really hate to hear that. My 2020 has over 50k on it and no problem like that at all. Only mod is the tires are now 33" BFG KO2's on Rubicon rims.

 

[Old Jeeper]

The thing that I find curious about the whole death wobble phenomenon is that there are apparently MANY Jeep owners who have driven their Jeeps for many years, presumably having worn out the ball joints, steering stablizer, steering box, or some other related components (or all of them!) at some point, yet have never experienced death wobble.

DOES it happen to all Jeeps, eventually? Or only some? And if it happens to only some, why those, and not others, or all of them?

Sorry, but not likely. How does DW arrive? WEAR of components, from anything under the front frame rails, it just simply wears out, the bushings get old and deteriorate the shocks/SS begin to leak, the tires are unbalanced.

That said...Jeeps with Front Leaf Springs rarely ever have it, they have a different steering system and the axle is located under the frame by the 2 front leafs. The TJ changed all that with Individual Coil springs and this required the use of a Track Bar and as a result a Steering stablizer to mitigate the oscillation of the axle (Newtons laws of motion are what plague the 1997> Jeeps). Ohhh and if you are wondering, the DW my first encounter was in 1969 on my 69 Corvette, my next was in 94 on my Harley motorcycle, take away is not only Jeeps, my F 450 did it also, so did my F 350 trucks.


Its common in "Y" configuration steering, systems which is done to save money...

 

[ODDs]

Sorry, but not likely. How does DW arrive? WEAR of components, from anything under the front frame rails, it just simply wears out, the bushings get old and deteriorate the shocks/SS begin to leak, the tires are unbalanced.

That said...Jeeps with Front Leaf Springs rarely ever have it, they have a different steering system and the axle is located under the frame by the 2 front leafs. The TJ changed all that with Individual Coil springs and this required the use of a Track Bar and as a result a Steering stablizer to mitigate the oscillation of the axle (Newtons laws of motion are what plague the 1997> Jeeps). Ohhh and if you are wondering, the DW my first encounter was in 1969 on my 69 Corvette, my next was in 94 on my Harley motorcycle, take away is not only Jeeps, my F 450 did it also, so did my F 350 trucks.


Its common in "Y" configuration steering, systems which is done to save money...

Anecdotal, but my YJ needed the stabilizer replaced every year like clockwork for the 8 years I owned it.

 

[mwilk012]

If you removed it completely, would you get death wobble?

This isn’t the gotcha you think it is. You’re failing to understand what is happening to the steering linkage when a stabilizer fails.

 

[AnnDee4444]

This isn’t the gotcha you think it is. You’re failing to understand what is happening to the steering linkage when a stabilizer fails.

Please explain what I am failing to understand, without assuming my motives this time.

The steering stabilizer is a damper. When a damper is failing, it doesn't dampen as well anymore... and eventually not at all. Removing the damper should have a similar effect as a completely failed damper.

 

[Old Jeeper]

Anecdotal, but my YJ needed the stabilizer replaced every year like clockwork for the 8 years I owned it.

LOL, speaking of Anecdotal, my YJ, which I owned for 9 years and drove daily to work and vacationed in, traveled all over the US. I never had to replace my SS. Ordered it in '84 (85 model) sold in '94...

 

[Exact Center]

LOL, speaking of Anecdotal, my YJ, which I owned for 9 years and drove daily to work and vacationed in, traveled all over the US. I never had to replace my SS. Ordered it in '84 (85 model) sold in '94...

First I am not making any claims we can cure DW, we cannot, but we have in many cases been able to give good control and keep DW from happening. On many rigs when the owner has had DW and he is able to install either a factory or aftermarket damper and install Exact Center on the tie rod nearly all have had good steering control and no DW. We tell everyone to try to find the loose or worn issues or other issues that are causing DW first if possible. However, we understand that can be very hard to do. Roky has been great at helping many forum users to find the cause of their DW, and that is the best answer, but for those who cannot find the source many have gone the two-unit route, a good damper and Exact Center, and most have found this band-aid (kind of belt and suspenders like) creates resistance high enough (in most cases) DW does not start. DW is not fixed but it may not happen. Exact Center gives hold at the center, return to the center, and wind oversteer canceling, and it helps the damper create a stronger barrier to DW. This is worth a try if it does not help Exact-Center-Tony will refund your purchase if you are not happy. Do email [email protected] or call 8-4 EST @ 1-989-448-2501 Tony at PIWcorp Gaylord, Mi to talk about your ride and your build. I invented Exact center and Tony is my grandson who has more experience with EC than anyone. He is a 3 jeep and soon-to-be TRX Ram owner, he will understand you and your build. He has done JL, JT, TJ, Jk, YJ and more along with RV. RV's no DW issues yet.

 

[Exact Center]

Exact Center explained the short version

TLDR
For all those who want a short explanation of how Exact Center works, do this. Hold your arms level in front of you with your fists together and push as hard as you can, ask someone to try to pull your fists apart. It won't be easy, each push stops at Exact Center, this is what Exact Center does it holds center just like you had strong guys doing it. That is the idea, very simple.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Old Jeeper]

First I am not making any claims we can cure DW, we cannot, but we have in many cases been able to give good control and keep DW from happening. On many rigs when the owner has had DW and he is able to install either a factory or aftermarket damper and install Exact Center on the tie rod nearly all have had good steering control and no DW. We tell everyone to try to find the loose or worn issues or other issues that are causing DW first if possible. However, we understand that can be very hard to do. Roky has been great at helping many forum users to find the cause of their DW, and that is the best answer, but for those who cannot find the source many have gone the two-unit route, a good damper and Exact Center, and most have found this band-aid (kind of belt and suspenders like) creates resistance high enough (in most cases) DW does not start. DW is not fixed but it may not happen. Exact Center gives hold at the center, return to the center, and wind oversteer canceling, and it helps the damper create a stronger barrier to DW. This is worth a try if it does not help Exact-Center-Tony will refund your purchase if you are not happy. Do email [email protected] or call 8-4 EST @ 1-989-448-2501 Tony at PIWcorp Gaylord, Mi to talk about your ride and your build. I invented Exact center and Tony is my grandson who has more experience with EC than anyone. He is a 3 jeep and soon-to-be TRX Ram owner, he will understand you and your build. He has done JL, JT, TJ, Jk, YJ and more along with RV. RV's no DW issues yet.

I think you are confusing me with someone else, I have NO problems with DW or anything else under the frame of a Jeep. Been driving Jeeps since the 60s, have owned about 22 of them and exact center is no revelation to me or any good Mech. I have been fixing DW for over 20 years and I did in my Jeep Shop for almost 10. I thank you for your consideration, but its not me that needs help. I wish you son good fortune...

 

[roaniecowpony]

Death Wobble an Odyssey



DW applies only to: ALL CARS, TRUCKS, MOTORCYCLES, SHOPPING CARTS, SOLID axle, and independent suspension modes of transportation that was manufactured after 1901.

It is NOT a question of Right or Wrong, it is a question of Newton's 1st and 3rd law of motion: "Newton's first law states that every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force. ... The third law states that for every action (force) there is an equal and opposite reaction."

1) If it is attached to the front suspension it plays a role in DW.

2 The following are generally the things you want to look in no order:

Track bar, bushings, and mounts

Steering stabilizer

Ball joint wear

Soft or worn shock

Ball joints

Rubber bushings

Tie rod ENDS being excessively worn

Tire Pressure, too low or unbalanced

Alignment and wheel balance should ALWAYS be in adjustment

Toe-in OEM specs and caster adjusted and compensated for tire size

Lower/upper control arms adjustment and bushings

Yes, anything and everything hanging under the frame of the front end

3) I recommend setting your own caster and toe because MOST shops will ONLY set to factory specs, which is fine if you are running a factory setup. But lifts, large tires etc can and will alter your toe-caster setting.

4) When you add lift or larger diameter tires you alter your caster. Toe rarely changes unless you "Y" steering setup, then when you add lift, your toe does change.

The ROOT cause of DW is an out-of-balance condition along with worn components. Often it is initiated when you drive over railroad tracks or a "crease" in the road from the contraction of road surface materials. The hitting of a manhole cover or pothole are other examples.

What takes place is the impact forces the tire backward and to the left or right unless you were to hit it exactly dead on. The L/R motion brings with it the OTHER side (tire). As you move forward the suspension tries to straighten out the tires. BUT Newton's laws of motion begin to interfere.

When an impact causes one tire to move L or R, then the other tires are forced to move along with it, but it exerts its own force, Newton’s 1st law of motion: "Every object continues in its state of rest or of uniform motion in a straight line, unless it is compelled to change that state by forces impressed upon it. " As you might surmise, all hell is fixing to break loose. What the automakers and engineers do is add a steering stabilizer to absorb, slow down and mitigate the violent continuing reactions…better known as DW. The SS is NOT a band-aid, it’s an integral component of your steering and suspension. It is also your First Responder to DW.

Bottom line. Bigger tires, out-of-alignment, worn components and road hazards can all wreak havoc. Here I will borrow from my world of software engineering coding and Economics of money flow; the “multiplier effect”. And, if you have ever played any pool and “broke” you can plainly see it when the cue ball hits the pile of racked balls…that is the multiplier effect in action or if you have ever written a line of bad code in a software program, how that rolls thru the system to create other problems. This is what happens when an impact takes place and something in your suspension is out of whack.

There is no one singular case you can blame every time, rather it is the sum of various components. It is this very thing that makes curing DW so elusive.

Coming soon:

Toe/Caster Understand it, DIY better than the shops do.

DW How I Fixed it and tips on how you can too



Getting your Jeep aligned can often be more than a headache. We often hear: 'Tires are too large for our machine', 'we don’t do lifted Jeeps', and 'we do not know how to adjust control arms', etc are just some of the stories.

Adjusting caster on our Jeeps is not only simple, but you can do it yourself in your driveway.

Caster:

The angle between the vehicle's steering axis and a vertical line, as viewed from the side, is measured in degrees.

It is CRITICAL that the Angle Finder [available from Sears, Home Depot, ACE, about $10 or less] be ALIGNED and parallel lengthwise with the Jeep frame and wheels.

TIP:

You MUST be looking at the angle finder (AF) straight on to get an accurate reading. Try looking at it and moving your head slightly to the left and right of the angle finder. You will see it shift back and forth, this will help you identify the exact angle. Might want to practice by setting your angle finder on any flat surface that you can easily move back and forth while looking at it.

BETTER WAY:

Discovered this Digital Multifunction Torpedo Level Mdl48295, at Sears. It reads to an accuracy of .1 and displays to .1 degree. It does several other things such as a lit screen and what is really COOL is the display automatically flips to read correctly when you turn it upside down.

It has a powerful magnet on the bottom and will provide some very accurate readings for Caster measurements over the Home Depot angle finder.

http://www.searshometownstores.com/product/Craftsman-48295-Digital-Torpedo-Level

Note:

Alignment machines can get far more accurate readings. Most will at least give 2 decimals points, some can do even 3, 4.589 for example. Looks impressive, but its most likely a waste. Adjustment ability is only about a half-degree max in most cases. This is due to RUBBER bushings give & take.

Bottom line is you can get just as good results as the alignment shop. I would not recommend using your driveway unless you know it is level on level ground, your garage floor might be a better place unless it has also been sloped for water runoff.

Set Caster (using adjustable upper/lower control arms):

To DECREASE CASTER ( - ):

Lengthen the upper control arms and or shorten the lower.

To INCREASE CASTER ( + ):

Shorten the upper control arms and or lengthen the lower.

Positive Caster:

Next time you see a motorcycle, look at the way the front wheel is kicked out in front of the bike this is a positive caster.

Negative Caster:

Shopping cart with floppy wheels and wheels are behind the vertical, this is a negative caster.

Cross Caster:

The difference in side-to-side between caster settings. More than half a degree difference may cause a steering pull toward the side with the least caster. Caster on the left front wheel is sometimes decreased to compensate for high road crown.

1) Park Jeep on a flat hard surface with wheels straight and parallel to the frame

2) Place AF on bottom of knuckle at outer end of front axle, insure the AF is parallel with the direction of the Jeep wheels and frame

3) Write down angle

4) Do same on opposite side

5) Write down angle

6) Remove end of control arm that you can adjust and count each full turn. For a starter, do 4 or 6 full turns, replace control arm and measure the change in angle. Example: 6 full turns resulted in 3 degrees. Therefore, each full turn = 1/2 degree, each 1/2 turn = 1/4 degree. Applies to JKS 18 TPI Control Arms, but most will be close

7) Now adjust your control arms to obtain the desired caster settings. Somewhere between, about 3.5 and 8 degrees depending upon various factors such as lift, size of tire etc

8) Now do a check of your front pinion angle. Bear in mind that front pinion angle is more important than caster

9) Road test. During the road test, turn the vehicle both the left and right. Insure the steering wheel returns to the center position unassisted. If steering wheel does not return to the center position, a too low caster or negative angle is the probable cause. NOTE DW is NOT Bump Steer, if you have bump steeer, reset and center your Pittman arm

10) Ensure all is tight and you are almost finished

If suspension clearances are tight or there is a issue of touching then you can work with just the uppers, the lowers or split and do both

If you do not have adjustable CA’s, get the adjustable cam bolts available from DC Jeep.

11) Setting Toe: Check that toe is about 1/8-inch +/- 1/16-inch, toe in. When doing alignments, toe is always the last setting.

A) Should you spend your bucks to get an alignment? No, I can not see any reason to at all. While their 'belt-fed, laser aimed, water-cooled' alignment machine will spew out corrections down the micro level...fact is none of that works much better than doing it yourself.

WHY? You are dealing with: 2 tie rod ends, 4 ball joints and a rubber tire. All of this has give, even if brand new, that is the way its made. If you get and you can get accuracy to within 1/16th of an inch, you will do as well as any shop does. (NOTE: They use rotating pads to keep the tire from scrubbing and rebounding. Putting the axles on jack stands is a good idea

B) Setting the toe: Viewing the tire(s) from the side some things are very critical. Know the keys and success will be the result.

key: where you measure on the front side of the tires NEEDS to be the same exact spot (height from the ground) on all 4 tires.

key: measure as high UP on the tire as you can get at on front, back and the same place on the other tire.

key: the OPTIMAL point is the max forward leading and rear trailing point of the tire. Like this: ' >0< ' WHY? as you go DOWN and around the tire the front and rear points get closer together and in order to get you 1/8th toe in (+/- 1/16th in) you adjustments have to get larger meaning the wheel has to be moved more in order to get the 1/8th in difference.

After you have set your toe, drove it and then rechecked it, YES it will likely change some, but about 1/16th is within tolerance.

TIP: Now take a tape measure and measure from 1 grease fitting to the other grease fitting on your tie rod (if you have them). Using a 'silver' perm marker write it down on any flat surface underneath and annotate whether or not you measured from the outside or inside of the grease fitting. Ever need to remove or replace your tie road or get a bent tie rod then just look at your measurement between the grease fittings and use that as a starting point. It should be VERY close.

TIP: Remember you need to loosen BOTH jam nuts on the tie rod and on the drag link then turn the tie rod/drag link, then tighten your jam nuts. You want to note the number of visible threads and try to get the tie rod ends at the same depth on each side.

Those are the principles or keys if you will that will ensure you get as good a toe in as the shop does.


Readers question, from 'RockPig': When the angle finder is attached to the bottom of the knuckle, the needle should be to the right of the 0 correct, and my Steering wheel will not return to center easily after a turn, what do you suggest?

Looking at your angle meter: If the front LEFT tire is kicked out (forward towards the front of the car) this results in a + caster the needle will be to the RIGHT of the 0 degree mark.

Conversely (note, this is done while laying under your Jeep)

Looking at your angle meter: If the front RIGHT tire is kicked out (forward towards the front of the car) this results In a + caster, the needle will be to the LEFT of the 0 degree mark.

That said, REMEMBER that the NEEDLE in fact is ALWAYS pointing UP as its counterweighted and meant to do so. It is the angle meter that is moving. If your looks like the ones above then it is round. THINK of it as the tire. Since you want to obtain + caster then the tire/angle meter must rotate forward to the front of the vehicle.

TIP: Hold the angle meter in hour hand and NOT looking at the needle, rotate the angle meter to give + caster, thinking of it as a wheel, now look at the needle.

What to set the caster at:

As we move to larger and larger tire sizes we inherently alter the caster due to the larger tires footprint. Large tires give you more positive caster. To compensate, we need a new caster setting to offset the larger tires. Reduce your caster setting by about -.5 degrees as you go up in each tire size. If OEM is 7 degrees caster and you add 37's try -5 to -6 degrees. The reason caster increases as you put on larger tires is because the tire contact patch is larger (wider and longer).

Last edited: Aug 28, 2001​

"Built to get you there...

Engineered to get you BACK!​

I have experienced DW on my Harley, my Corvette, and have been driving Jeeps since the 60's. I have worked to mitigate it as a mechanic and as a Off Road shop owner. YES I can and have fixed it.



Trip Report:

While out in Pomona, Ca attending the Off Road Expo I was driving I 10 which is in dire need of repair. The road is rougher than a Nyquil hangover and no one's friend, Death Wobble, is trying to hitch a ride with me at about 70 mph. Of course, it picked a great time to do it as I was lifting a cup of near-boiling coffee to my lips.

Suddenly I find myself trying to steer, dodge boiling coffee and traffic at the same time. I’ve got 7 or 8 cars around me that are watching the Jeep do the Death Wobble 2-step, coffee is everywhere but mostly on the inside of the windshield, my lower lip and between my legs which is causing me to lift out of my seat.

Finally, I get the Jeep settled down enough to pull over in the wish I wasn’t here lane. I get out to do an inspection and of course, normal cars are whizzing by only inches from my burnt body. Now I know how the lady who spilled her Mc Donalds coffee felt, wonder if I can sue myself??? At least the wind is making my crotch and lower lip feel a little better.

Turning the Jeep around at the next exit and heading back to the motel to change clothes, and try to figure out what to do about my lower lip. I also need to think about what I can tell my wife that she will believe about why I have a scalded crotch. Maybe I will tell her its some California HOTTIE I picked up!

The genesis of my problem is in the frame side of my track bar mount. I run an OEM track bar and the weak side is the tie rod end that affixes to the OEM “C” mount welded to the frame. The small tie rod end is no doubt in a constant struggle to keep the Dynatrac ProRock 60, 37 MTRs and Walker Evans bead locks running on the straight and narrow. Rapid wear in the OEM tie rod end is clearly expected. Gotta apply the FIX!

Hmm. Not one mention of gyroscopic precession...the primary force acting on the axle. You know ... the force that is pushing the axle left and right. The force that is magnified with increased rotating mass and diameter.

 

[Old Jeeper]

Hmm. Not one mention of gyroscopic precession...the primary force acting on the axle. You know ... the force that is pushing the axle left and right. The force that is magnified with increased rotating mass and diameter.

I did not put it there I wrote that years and years ago. But yes, in other papers I discuss it under the heading of Newton's Laws of motion. I I don't think folks care one way or another that is the basis for it they want to get it fixed. Yes on occasions I would get someone in my shop if they were engineer we get into it because they wanted to know and understand. I also call it oscillation as its a lateral back-and-forth movement not in the direction of travel.

I applaud you for Knowing what it really is.

 

[NewbieJon]

Our completely stock 2019 Sahara experienced it the first time we took it to snow country when 6 months and 5000 miles old. Had to drive 45 mph on the highway with our hazards on the rest of the way. Dealer replaced the steering stabilizer. Happened again one year later, this time in Phoenix heat. Scared the wits out of my wife. When she pulled off the highway, a car pulled up beside and said something to the effect of 'Holy shit, are you OK? I've never seen anything like that'. Dealer replaced the steering stabilizer. The next time it happens I'm going to replace it myself with a Fox TS stabilizer.

If you have replaced the steering stabilizer on a stock jeep twice in 2 years, you probably have an underlying condition that needs to be fixed.

 

[Mudduck]

OP,

Start with the free stuff. Recalls/ TSB (i see you did). Borrow, buy, rent a torque wrench. The torque specs for the JL/JLU are stickied somewhere here. Have someone turn the wheel for you while you check for slop/play. Tons of YouTube vids on DW and how to check for worn parts. Always start with the free and obvious. If you can change your oil, you can do this......

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