Keep Me Sane: Death Wobble Has Me Considering Selling

[Rodeoflyer]

I got up above 14k feet Friday. I'm on stock axles, aftermarket control arms (johnny joints).. I only trust johnny joints or heims after some crazy DW. I won't own ANY aftermarket parts that don't use johnny joints or heims EVER again. I'd rather rebuild heims annually.

IF your 5+ deg caster then it's joints or loose bushings/torque on the front components...

Sponsored

 

[c20040215]

What is death Wobble???

 

[panda234]

Basically, any looseness in the steering system that allows the wheels to turn a certain amount without the steering wheel being turned can result in death wobble. Here are most of the possible causes on a Wrangler.
- Worn ball joints
- Worn tie rod ends
- Worn drag link ends
- Worn track bar ends
- Twisting of the frame where the steering box and track bar mount
- Flex in the track bar
- Flex in the tie rod
- Flex in the drag link
- Worn steering box output shaft bearing

Other causes, like worn wheel bearings usually have other symptoms, like howling or grinding noises, that point directly at them.

The problem is that any of the above can combine together to allow too much movement. The amount of slop in any individual piece can be small enough to be overlooked with a normal inspection and there's no simple way to detect excess flex in the various linkage pieces or frame. Also, once you get death wobble, it tends to damage and cause excessive wear to all the joints and ends. The real cause is that Jeep has selected marginal parts for all of the above and if anything is just a little bit off, it tends to cause a daisy chain effect that eventually takes out all of the above.

The solution is to just bite the bullet and replace all of the above parts with readily available heavy duty aftermarket parts at the same time. Also, install a front track bar reinforcement brace and maybe a sector shaft brace. Otherwise, you're just chasing your tail. Do it once and make the problem go away for good. It will cost about $2k to $3k depending on the particular parts and how much of the work you do yourself. It's all simple bolt-ons except for the ball joints, which while not too hard to replace, aren't easy either.

As for the steering stabilizer, it dampens the movement of the tie rod which reduces the likelihood of death wobble since the wheels won't turn quite as easily (unless the main problem is in the tie rod ends), but it does nothing to eliminate the cause. In fact if all of the steering and suspension parts are in good shape, you won't get death wobble even without a steering stabilizer.

 

[Spank]

Update from Jeep Dealership: everything looked good except my steering damper, they said it was “weak”. I declined the $450 service because I can do this myself. I just find it hard to believe a weak stabilizer could’ve been the cause, but i guess I’ll order one and see if it’s fixed.

$450? Holy shit. Is the guy building the stabilizer with his bare hands?

 

[jackgraves7]

$450? Holy shit. Is the guy building the stabilizer with his bare hands?

Exactly, takes 5 minutes to do myself…

 

[arod0915]

My experience with Death Wobble, for reference I have a 2020 Rubicon with 41,000 miles.

One of my first mods was installing 0.50" spacers, handling was good and no wobble. A year ago I installed a Terra Flex 3.5 lift with the Falcon shocks and was running the stock 33" wheels while waiting for new wheels. This combination changed the suspension geometry, even with new Terra Flex Lower Control Arms and under certain conditions the wobble would set in. I finally upgraded the wheels to 37s on Nomad rims and ditched the spacers. Wobble is gone and steering feels like new, on and off road. I would try removing the spacer, won't cost anything and you can rule them out. It worked for me, Good luck!

 

[Old Jeeper]

Someone please talk me out of this.
I have an 18 JLUS with 39,500 miles with a rubicon suspension swap and .5” spacers. I also have 255/75/17 tires. In the past 3 weeks I have developed death wobble. Full on shaking until slamming on the breaks and reducing speed.

I took it to Firestone where they inspected the entire suspension, did an alignment (toe was out of spec) and balanced my tires.

The next day I got it on the road thinking it was fixed, and death wobble was even worse (almost had to pull over). I called the Jeep dealership to have them look at it and they are booked solid through November.

So currently my Jeep is sitting in my driveway, immovable as I’m too terrified to drive it. All this waiting has me contemplating selling it for an IFS vehicle (truck).

Can someone please talk me out of this and give me hope. I don’t want to dump weeks and thousands of dollars into troubleshooting this.

Lets start off with the basics:

IF it hangs under the front frame rails it can be a CONTRIBUTOR to DW

Your first line of defense is the Steering Stabilizer, its NOT a BANDAID, it is there for a purpose, and the purpose in to offer up some control on your lateral moving suspension system. As the SS wears is loses the ability to control. But why does it need to control? Because your steering components are beginning to wear. The first to look at (after the SS) is your trackbar.

Alignment needs to be in good order, KEY is caster. Taller tires demand different caster, but it looks like you need little if any caster adj based upon your tire size.

Firs thing I would replace is the SS and you go with a HD version. See if that works for you, if not go with a fresh track bar.

Things to check:

Front shocks, a weak leads to unbalanced action and it will cause DW in a heartbeat.

Same goes for psi in your front tires and or unbalanced tires either psi or weights.

Wheel bearings, I doubt at 39k miles you have worn them out but if you are a MUDDER and a Beach runner, mud and sand will eat wheel bearings.

DON'T FEEL ALONE:

I got my first DW in 1969 on my Corvette. In 1994 I got DW on my Harley ( can you say SCARY). Causes and fixes. Corvette had a slipped belt in the tread and a slow leak and new tire and proper PSI fixed. Harley, PSI in the front tire was low. You will see SS on a lot of Jap bikes.

Here is how I solved DW:

I raised my front suspension and made it parallel, you can it in the pic. It's parallel to the axle. However, I still had that pesky Trackbar to deal with. Well DW showed up at my party again. So what did was fab up my own Track bar and I cut off my steering box and rotated it to get a better angle on my Pittman arm...It work lasted and I sold it 8 years and 88,xxx miles later.the guy who bought is still running it

I don't anyone to do this unless you are an extreme hard-core rock guy and I was. Could Jeep do the same, sure, but lots of components are involved and they want to do suspension cheap, not good, guess its good enough for about 99% most of the time.

 

[evlFlash]

I'll throw my $.02 into the game having experienced similar issues on my 18 JLUR.

TL;DR

Tighten everything down to spec and get the ball joints replaced with some heavy duty ones. I think the Dynatrac ones were mentioned, personally I have the Synergy ones installed and they made a big difference.

More of the story.

I started out with a JULR that only had a MetalCloak bumper w/winch and 0.75" spacers before getting the wobbles. I've had every recall and the cast iron steering box TSB done before as well. Now my first disclaimer is that I am definitely a certified YT mechanic. I am definitely mechanically inclined and not an idiot (most of the time) though.

Back to the Jeep; I had already planned out a bunch of mods before so I figured I would deal with Mrs. Wobbles along the way. After installing an all out MetalCloak lift and steering component upgrades, fresh out of the alignment from the 4x4 shop still wobbling. However, that was without the steering stabilizer installed, threw that back on and it felt better but it was still a little shaky when hitting some bumps at higher speeds. After that, I decided to do the knuckles and ball joints and boy what a difference. It's hard to tell how much the knuckles added to the feel but these two things combined had one of the biggest changes in driving feel giving me back confidence that the front end isn't going to just shake itself apart at 70mph. I will add that when I pulled the original ball joints out I could move the joint while holding it in a single hand. The bumper and spacers were installed pretty early in her life. The lift was done at about ~25k, ball joints around ~26k, and she sits right now ~28K. Actually love driving her now.

Good luck and hope you figure it out.

 

[WorkingMan]

I've wondered this too. If it's a question of worn parts, then are we all destined for the death wobble at some point???

My first Jeep was a 1978 CJ7 with the V8 that was pretty well used by the time I got it. I drove it like the kid I was and never once experienced any sort of instability. The only time it almost killed me was when I backed out onto a road and when I put it in first and let off the clutch the carb decided to vapor lock. About that time an 18 wheeler came around the curve. Luckily, he we able to maneuver though the parking lot I had backed out of and avoided killing me.

 

[Andrewrdc]

Put a good steering stabilizer on it.

Don't listen to the people who disagree.

Ahem… I disagree.

Death wobble is a serious condition usually due to more than a single worn out suspension component. A new steering stabilizer won’t hurt anything but it’s more like a band aid that will not fix the real issue… if your current SS is totally worn out, a new one will seem to help. However, in order to truly fix DW you need to replace the worn components. Below is a link to the great YT video by “Planman”that helped me finally fix the recurring death wobble on my Jk.



Take your time and accept the fact that you will need to spend a little money to fix it. I ended up replacing ball joints, drag link and, yes, the steering stabilizer. .

Hope this helps you as much as it helped me!

Andrew

 

[mwilk012]

Ahem… I disagree.

Death wobble is a serious condition usually due to more than a single worn out suspension component. A new steering stabilizer won’t hurt anything but it’s more like a band aid that will not fix the real issue… if your current SS is totally worn out, a new one will seem to help. However, in order to truly fix DW you need to replace the worn components. Below is a link to the great YT video by “Planman”that helped me finally fix the recurring death wobble on my Jk.



Take your time and accept the fact that you will need to spend a little money to fix it. I ended up replacing ball joints, drag link and, yes, the steering stabilizer. .

Hope this helps you as much as it helped me!

Andrew

1. A JK is not a JL
2. Many things can cause DW
3. One of those things is a bad steering steering stabilizer

you skipped thewhole thread just to say what everyone else already had.

 

[Old Jeeper]

1. A JK is not a JL
2. Many things can cause DW
3. One of those things is a bad steering steering stabilizer

you skipped thewhole thread just to say what everyone else already had.

You are right. DW threads bring out those who cannot Spell DW if you spot them the D & the W, but they KNOW how to fix it and know all abou it.

 

[Old Jeeper]

Death Wobble an Odyssey



DW applies only to: ALL CARS, TRUCKS, MOTORCYCLES, SHOPPING CARTS, SOLID axle, and independent suspension modes of transportation that was manufactured after 1901.

It is NOT a question of Right or Wrong, it is a question of Newton's 1st and 3rd law of motion: "Newton's first law states that every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force. ... The third law states that for every action (force) there is an equal and opposite reaction."

1) If it is attached to the front suspension it plays a role in DW.

2 The following are generally the things you want to look in no order:

Track bar, bushings, and mounts

Steering stabilizer

Ball joint wear

Soft or worn shock

Ball joints

Rubber bushings

Tie rod ENDS being excessively worn

Tire Pressure, too low or unbalanced

Alignment and wheel balance should ALWAYS be in adjustment

Toe-in OEM specs and caster adjusted and compensated for tire size

Lower/upper control arms adjustment and bushings

Yes, anything and everything hanging under the frame of the front end

3) I recommend setting your own caster and toe because MOST shops will ONLY set to factory specs, which is fine if you are running a factory setup. But lifts, large tires etc can and will alter your toe-caster setting.

4) When you add lift or larger diameter tires you alter your caster. Toe rarely changes unless you "Y" steering setup, then when you add lift, your toe does change.

The ROOT cause of DW is an out-of-balance condition along with worn components. Often it is initiated when you drive over railroad tracks or a "crease" in the road from the contraction of road surface materials. The hitting of a manhole cover or pothole are other examples.

What takes place is the impact forces the tire backward and to the left or right unless you were to hit it exactly dead on. The L/R motion brings with it the OTHER side (tire). As you move forward the suspension tries to straighten out the tires. BUT Newton's laws of motion begin to interfere.

When an impact causes one tire to move L or R, then the other tires are forced to move along with it, but it exerts its own force, Newton’s 1st law of motion: "Every object continues in its state of rest or of uniform motion in a straight line, unless it is compelled to change that state by forces impressed upon it. " As you might surmise, all hell is fixing to break loose. What the automakers and engineers do is add a steering stabilizer to absorb, slow down and mitigate the violent continuing reactions…better known as DW. The SS is NOT a band-aid, it’s an integral component of your steering and suspension. It is also your First Responder to DW.

Bottom line. Bigger tires, out-of-alignment, worn components and road hazards can all wreak havoc. Here I will borrow from my world of software engineering coding and Economics of money flow; the “multiplier effect”. And, if you have ever played any pool and “broke” you can plainly see it when the cue ball hits the pile of racked balls…that is the multiplier effect in action or if you have ever written a line of bad code in a software program, how that rolls thru the system to create other problems. This is what happens when an impact takes place and something in your suspension is out of whack.

There is no one singular case you can blame every time, rather it is the sum of various components. It is this very thing that makes curing DW so elusive.

Coming soon:

Toe/Caster Understand it, DIY better than the shops do.

DW How I Fixed it and tips on how you can too



Getting your Jeep aligned can often be more than a headache. We often hear: 'Tires are too large for our machine', 'we don’t do lifted Jeeps', and 'we do not know how to adjust control arms', etc are just some of the stories.

Adjusting caster on our Jeeps is not only simple, but you can do it yourself in your driveway.

Caster:

The angle between the vehicle's steering axis and a vertical line, as viewed from the side, is measured in degrees.

It is CRITICAL that the Angle Finder [available from Sears, Home Depot, ACE, about $10 or less] be ALIGNED and parallel lengthwise with the Jeep frame and wheels.

TIP:

You MUST be looking at the angle finder (AF) straight on to get an accurate reading. Try looking at it and moving your head slightly to the left and right of the angle finder. You will see it shift back and forth, this will help you identify the exact angle. Might want to practice by setting your angle finder on any flat surface that you can easily move back and forth while looking at it.

BETTER WAY:

Discovered this Digital Multifunction Torpedo Level Mdl48295, at Sears. It reads to an accuracy of .1 and displays to .1 degree. It does several other things such as a lit screen and what is really COOL is the display automatically flips to read correctly when you turn it upside down.

It has a powerful magnet on the bottom and will provide some very accurate readings for Caster measurements over the Home Depot angle finder.

http://www.searshometownstores.com/product/Craftsman-48295-Digital-Torpedo-Level

Note:

Alignment machines can get far more accurate readings. Most will at least give 2 decimals points, some can do even 3, 4.589 for example. Looks impressive, but its most likely a waste. Adjustment ability is only about a half-degree max in most cases. This is due to RUBBER bushings give & take.

Bottom line is you can get just as good results as the alignment shop. I would not recommend using your driveway unless you know it is level on level ground, your garage floor might be a better place unless it has also been sloped for water runoff.

Set Caster (using adjustable upper/lower control arms):

To DECREASE CASTER ( - ):

Lengthen the upper control arms and or shorten the lower.

To INCREASE CASTER ( + ):

Shorten the upper control arms and or lengthen the lower.

Positive Caster:

Next time you see a motorcycle, look at the way the front wheel is kicked out in front of the bike this is a positive caster.

Negative Caster:

Shopping cart with floppy wheels and wheels are behind the vertical, this is a negative caster.

Cross Caster:

The difference in side-to-side between caster settings. More than half a degree difference may cause a steering pull toward the side with the least caster. Caster on the left front wheel is sometimes decreased to compensate for high road crown.

1) Park Jeep on a flat hard surface with wheels straight and parallel to the frame

2) Place AF on bottom of knuckle at outer end of front axle, insure the AF is parallel with the direction of the Jeep wheels and frame

3) Write down angle

4) Do same on opposite side

5) Write down angle

6) Remove end of control arm that you can adjust and count each full turn. For a starter, do 4 or 6 full turns, replace control arm and measure the change in angle. Example: 6 full turns resulted in 3 degrees. Therefore, each full turn = 1/2 degree, each 1/2 turn = 1/4 degree. Applies to JKS 18 TPI Control Arms, but most will be close

7) Now adjust your control arms to obtain the desired caster settings. Somewhere between, about 3.5 and 8 degrees depending upon various factors such as lift, size of tire etc

8) Now do a check of your front pinion angle. Bear in mind that front pinion angle is more important than caster

9) Road test. During the road test, turn the vehicle both the left and right. Insure the steering wheel returns to the center position unassisted. If steering wheel does not return to the center position, a too low caster or negative angle is the probable cause. NOTE DW is NOT Bump Steer, if you have bump steeer, reset and center your Pittman arm

10) Ensure all is tight and you are almost finished

If suspension clearances are tight or there is a issue of touching then you can work with just the uppers, the lowers or split and do both

If you do not have adjustable CA’s, get the adjustable cam bolts available from DC Jeep.

11) Setting Toe: Check that toe is about 1/8-inch +/- 1/16-inch, toe in. When doing alignments, toe is always the last setting.

A) Should you spend your bucks to get an alignment? No, I can not see any reason to at all. While their 'belt-fed, laser aimed, water-cooled' alignment machine will spew out corrections down the micro level...fact is none of that works much better than doing it yourself.

WHY? You are dealing with: 2 tie rod ends, 4 ball joints and a rubber tire. All of this has give, even if brand new, that is the way its made. If you get and you can get accuracy to within 1/16th of an inch, you will do as well as any shop does. (NOTE: They use rotating pads to keep the tire from scrubbing and rebounding. Putting the axles on jack stands is a good idea

B) Setting the toe: Viewing the tire(s) from the side some things are very critical. Know the keys and success will be the result.

key: where you measure on the front side of the tires NEEDS to be the same exact spot (height from the ground) on all 4 tires.

key: measure as high UP on the tire as you can get at on front, back and the same place on the other tire.

key: the OPTIMAL point is the max forward leading and rear trailing point of the tire. Like this: ' >0< ' WHY? as you go DOWN and around the tire the front and rear points get closer together and in order to get you 1/8th toe in (+/- 1/16th in) you adjustments have to get larger meaning the wheel has to be moved more in order to get the 1/8th in difference.

After you have set your toe, drove it and then rechecked it, YES it will likely change some, but about 1/16th is within tolerance.

TIP: Now take a tape measure and measure from 1 grease fitting to the other grease fitting on your tie rod (if you have them). Using a 'silver' perm marker write it down on any flat surface underneath and annotate whether or not you measured from the outside or inside of the grease fitting. Ever need to remove or replace your tie road or get a bent tie rod then just look at your measurement between the grease fittings and use that as a starting point. It should be VERY close.

TIP: Remember you need to loosen BOTH jam nuts on the tie rod and on the drag link then turn the tie rod/drag link, then tighten your jam nuts. You want to note the number of visible threads and try to get the tie rod ends at the same depth on each side.

Those are the principles or keys if you will that will ensure you get as good a toe in as the shop does.


Readers question, from 'RockPig': When the angle finder is attached to the bottom of the knuckle, the needle should be to the right of the 0 correct, and my Steering wheel will not return to center easily after a turn, what do you suggest?

Looking at your angle meter: If the front LEFT tire is kicked out (forward towards the front of the car) this results in a + caster the needle will be to the RIGHT of the 0 degree mark.

Conversely (note, this is done while laying under your Jeep)

Looking at your angle meter: If the front RIGHT tire is kicked out (forward towards the front of the car) this results In a + caster, the needle will be to the LEFT of the 0 degree mark.

That said, REMEMBER that the NEEDLE in fact is ALWAYS pointing UP as its counterweighted and meant to do so. It is the angle meter that is moving. If your looks like the ones above then it is round. THINK of it as the tire. Since you want to obtain + caster then the tire/angle meter must rotate forward to the front of the vehicle.

TIP: Hold the angle meter in hour hand and NOT looking at the needle, rotate the angle meter to give + caster, thinking of it as a wheel, now look at the needle.

What to set the caster at:

As we move to larger and larger tire sizes we inherently alter the caster due to the larger tires footprint. Large tires give you more positive caster. To compensate, we need a new caster setting to offset the larger tires. Reduce your caster setting by about -.5 degrees as you go up in each tire size. If OEM is 7 degrees caster and you add 37's try -5 to -6 degrees. The reason caster increases as you put on larger tires is because the tire contact patch is larger (wider and longer).

Last edited: Aug 28, 2001​

"Built to get you there...

Engineered to get you BACK!​

I have experienced DW on my Harley, my Corvette, and have been driving Jeeps since the 60's. I have worked to mitigate it as a mechanic and as a Off Road shop owner. YES I can and have fixed it.



Trip Report:

While out in Pomona, Ca attending the Off Road Expo I was driving I 10 which is in dire need of repair. The road is rougher than a Nyquil hangover and no one's friend, Death Wobble, is trying to hitch a ride with me at about 70 mph. Of course, it picked a great time to do it as I was lifting a cup of near-boiling coffee to my lips.

Suddenly I find myself trying to steer, dodge boiling coffee and traffic at the same time. I’ve got 7 or 8 cars around me that are watching the Jeep do the Death Wobble 2-step, coffee is everywhere but mostly on the inside of the windshield, my lower lip and between my legs which is causing me to lift out of my seat.

Finally, I get the Jeep settled down enough to pull over in the wish I wasn’t here lane. I get out to do an inspection and of course, normal cars are whizzing by only inches from my burnt body. Now I know how the lady who spilled her Mc Donalds coffee felt, wonder if I can sue myself??? At least the wind is making my crotch and lower lip feel a little better.

Turning the Jeep around at the next exit and heading back to the motel to change clothes, and try to figure out what to do about my lower lip. I also need to think about what I can tell my wife that she will believe about why I have a scalded crotch. Maybe I will tell her its some California HOTTIE I picked up!

The genesis of my problem is in the frame side of my track bar mount. I run an OEM track bar and the weak side is the tie rod end that affixes to the OEM “C” mount welded to the frame. The small tie rod end is no doubt in a constant struggle to keep the Dynatrac ProRock 60, 37 MTRs and Walker Evans bead locks running on the straight and narrow. Rapid wear in the OEM tie rod end is clearly expected. Gotta apply the FIX!

 

[AnnDee4444]

3. One of those things is a bad steering steering stabilizer

If you removed it completely, would you get death wobble?

 

[Flybaby]

The thing that I find curious about the whole death wobble phenomenon is that there are apparently MANY Jeep owners who have driven their Jeeps for many years, presumably having worn out the ball joints, steering stablizer, steering box, or some other related components (or all of them!) at some point, yet have never experienced death wobble.

DOES it happen to all Jeeps, eventually? Or only some? And if it happens to only some, why those, and not others, or all of them?

I agree with that thought. It seems to me that many of the people experiencing death wobble, are the ones that have modified parts of their Jeeps suspension, tires, and or steering, but failed to recognize the geometry of how the components worked together has also changed. I have yet to see any Jeep, even from the early models, that has had that problem from the factory. It is easy for many to swap out parts but not consider the full effect of the changes, especially over time.

Sponsored