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Just saw my first Jeep 4xe

ads75

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I think my biggest concern with them is that FCA has yet to be able to field a new technology especially a brand new one without considerable issues. Using their lifeblood product line to test bed it seems premature. I think the batteries could be a real kick in the nuts when out of warranty. It is a cool idea though for a high number of the customers that really donā€™t go offroad or engage 4x4 very often. You donā€™t have to be a wheeler to be a Jeeper. I just hate to see the brand degraded by poor implementations of new tech.
I have to disagree with your opinion on implementing a somewhat new technology on the Wrangler platform. The 4xE isn't your only option if you want a Wrangler, you can also go 3.6, 2.0, diesel or 392. It probably a good idea to make the new, possibly most up-and-coming drive train on their most popular product line, where it can be real world tested and improved for future platforms. The batteries may be a big problem they are out of warranty, but Jeep gives you plenty of other engine options if you don't want to buy 4xE. And realistically, most (most not all) vehicles don't last 200k miles anyway. Not sure how you expect anyone to deploy what you are calling a new technology without ever testing or implementing it. Just because the 4xE drivetrain isn't right for you doesn't mean it isn't right for the other hundreds of thousand of Wranglers they sell.
 

Windshieldfarmer

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Folks have mentioned federal tax incentives (obviously everyone's state is different) - and these can indeed be good but they need to be examined holistically. The government is never out to do anyone any favors. The tax rebates are for folks who run a liability - anyone who gets a tax refund every year isn't benefitting from them. Folks who do their taxes in a way to get as close to zero as they can, but might go a little over, won't realize the tax credit because it can only be claimed up to your liability. (I owe 1k, I can claim 1k rebate but not the full 7500). If you're a person who does their taxes so perfectly that you run a 7k deficit and can reliably get it very close to that number without going over, and then use the hybrid tax rebate to close the gap, until these rebates are phased out (this is the govts plan as more sell) the rebate could be quite useful. The number of folks who fall into this category, though, is far smaller than the number of people who will buy the vehicle thinking oh-em-gee I'm gonna save 7.5k on taxes. ;)
If you only pay $1,000 in taxes each year you donā€™t make enough money to afford a 4xe...or even a bicycle. The $7,500 applies to your entire federal tax liability not just the amount youā€™ve over withheld. That tax credit more than makes up the difference between the cost of a hybrid and an non hybrid Ruby.
 

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#jeepprius is perfect for the tree hugger.
the tree Iā€™ll be hugging has $9k (rebates/incentives) of my money hanging from it....and Iā€™ll still be able to park next to you and enjoy the same view of the forest....see you on the trail šŸ˜‰
 

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If you only pay $1,000 in taxes each year you donā€™t make enough money to afford a 4xe...or even a bicycle. The $7,500 applies to your entire federal tax liability not just the amount youā€™ve over withheld. That tax credit more than makes up the difference between the cost of a hybrid and an non hybrid Ruby.
Exactly, and you have misunderstood what I wrote - and my point. This is my fault for poorly wording it. I understand it applies to your federal tax liability, and I was never insinuating someone only owed 1k - and I am sorry for not being clearer on that. I should have stated "remaining tax liability." I apologize for the confusion, but my point still stands.

Here's a gross simplification with random numbers to illustrate my point: Let's say you had 25,000 total tax liability for 2020, and you had 20k withdrawn from your paychecks. You owe the government 5000. You own a hybrid that lets you claim the full 7500 due to battery size. This will zero your remaining liability, but wont give you a 2500 check. If you are in that situation, it is indeed worth it.

If you are like most Americans (72 ish percent in 2019) you receive a refund. You have already fully paid your tax liability in deductions. Let's use those same simplified numbers above. Your liability is 25,000 and you have had 30000 withheld. You get 5k back. That's it - not 5k plus your 7.5k rebate. The government isn't paying you to buy a hybrid, and the numbers don't roll over.

The bottom line is, 72% of tax filers will see no benefit from this. They have too much withheld on purpose and like to get a check in April. Financially, this is stupid, but most people value convenience over mathematical perfection with it comes to taxes. That isn't a judgment, it's just a fact given the amount of folks who get refunds.

Of the remaining 28% of people with unfunded tax liability remainders, how much benefit they get from a hybrid rebate will depend how deep a remaining liability they run. The closer to 7.5k the better. This is why many financial advisers will tell you to purposely run a 7.5k remainder, stack that cash in a Roth IRA, and then zero it with a hybrid deduction. Pretty slick if you ask me - but ask yourself how many people are actually doing that?

My point is this: there's lots of people talking about how excellent these rebates on hybrids are. I have coworkers who have been talking about them for years. They also tell me they get tax refunds. It makes me smile a bit.


Read this: https://www.efile.com/tax-credit/hybrid-car-tax-credit/

Quote from the article: " This IRS tax credit can be worth anywhere from $2,500 to $7,500. The amount is determined by the power storage of the battery. In general, all electric vehicles can claim more of the credit than plug-in hybrid vehicles as their battery has more storage. Note that this credit is nonrefundable and will not generate a refund on its own. In other words, if you owe $2,500 on your 2020 Taxes, but claim credit for a PHEV worth $5,000, you will receive $2,500, and the remaining $2,500 will be eliminated."
 

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Exactly, and you have misunderstood what I wrote - and my point. This is my fault for poorly wording it. I understand it applies to your federal tax liability, and I was never insinuating someone only owed 1k - and I am sorry for not being clearer on that. I should have stated "remaining tax liability." I apologize for the confusion, but my point still stands.

Here's a gross simplification with random numbers to illustrate my point: Let's say you had 25,000 total tax liability for 2020, and you had 20k withdrawn from your paychecks. You owe the government 5000. You own a hybrid that lets you claim the full 7500 due to battery size. This will zero your remaining liability, but wont give you a 2500 check. If you are in that situation, it is indeed worth it.

If you are like most Americans (72 ish percent in 2019) you receive a refund. You have already fully paid your tax liability in deductions. Let's use those same simplified numbers above. Your liability is 25,000 and you have had 30000 withheld. You get 5k back. That's it - not 5k plus your 7.5k rebate. The government isn't paying you to buy a hybrid, and the numbers don't roll over.

The bottom line is, 72% of tax filers will see no benefit from this. They have too much withheld on purpose and like to get a check in April. Financially, this is stupid, but most people value convenience over mathematical perfection with it comes to taxes. That isn't a judgment, it's just a fact given the amount of folks who get refunds.

Of the remaining 28% of people with unfunded tax liability remainders, how much benefit they get from a hybrid rebate will depend how deep a remaining liability they run. The closer to 7.5k the better. This is why many financial advisers will tell you to purposely run a 7.5k remainder, stack that cash in a Roth IRA, and then zero it with a hybrid deduction. Pretty slick if you ask me - but ask yourself how many people are actually doing that?

My point is this: there's lots of people talking about how excellent these rebates on hybrids are. I have coworkers who have been talking about them for years. They also tell me they get tax refunds. It makes me smile a bit.


Read this: https://www.efile.com/tax-credit/hybrid-car-tax-credit/

Quote from the article: " This IRS tax credit can be worth anywhere from $2,500 to $7,500. The amount is determined by the power storage of the battery. In general, all electric vehicles can claim more of the credit than plug-in hybrid vehicles as their battery has more storage. Note that this credit is nonrefundable and will not generate a refund on its own. In other words, if you owe $2,500 on your 2020 Taxes, but claim credit for a PHEV worth $5,000, you will receive $2,500, and the remaining $2,500 will be eliminated."
This is not correct. As long as your taxes owed are more than the $7500 rebate, you get the full amount. If you've you've prepaid some of that, you'll get a refund. In your example, you would get the $2500 refund. Now, if my tax liability for the year were only $6500, then the most advantage I can get from the rebate is $6500.
 

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This is not correct. As long as your taxes owed are more than the $7500 rebate, you get the full amount. If you've you've prepaid some of that, you'll get a refund. In your example, you would get the $2500 refund. Now, if my tax liability for the year were only $6500, then the most advantage I can get from the rebate is $6500.
Also, there are ways to take advantage of the rebate even if you don't make enough, such as rolling a traditional IRA over to a Roth IRA, which requires taxes to be paid. The rebate can offset some or all of those taxes, depending on how much you roll over.
 

Dryver

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HUGE exaggeration there. Sorry, but as a guy who is a big fan of tech and electric motors, as well as a data nerd and still holding a high appreciation of gas/diesel engines...

The 4XE makes 6-7% more torque than his 3.0 diesel, though the 4XE should have instant torque and a better curve vs his diesel as an additional bonus. However, that's at 100% charge. The 4XE will lose 5% charge PER MILE when running on the battery (probably 7-8% in the real world, and 8-12% per mile in the cold winter), and with each % it loses, it will also lose torque. His diesel will have more torque within a couple minutes of the 4XE leaving home, and pull that torque all day long.

I'm not bashing either, but let's be real here.
So, do you have a cordless drill? Does it lose torque as you use it, or does it pretty supply the same torque up until the battery reaches the point where it cuts off to keep it from discharging too far?
 

johnnyj

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Also, there are ways to take advantage of the rebate even if you don't make enough, such as rolling a traditional IRA over to a Roth IRA, which requires taxes to be paid. The rebate can offset some or all of those taxes, depending on how much you roll over.
Please re read what I wrote. You are literally agreeing with me and mentioning items I also said - like the roth IRA.
 

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Dryver

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Please re read what I wrote. You are literally agreeing with me and mentioning items I also said - like the roth IRA.
I beg to differ, but we are not saying the same thing. You are stating that if you have paid $25K of taxes on a $25K tax liability, then you get nothing back from the credit. This is not true. If you have paid $25K of taxes on a $25K tax liability, then you will get a refund for the full $7500.

If you paid $17.5K on your $25K tax liability, then the $7500 credit will make up the difference and you will neither owe anything or get a refund. Anything in the middle gives you a refund accordingly.

If you have a $6000 tax liability and have had no withholdings towards it, then the $7500 credit will cover the $6000 that you owe, but you will not get the additional $1500 as a refund. That is what non-refundable means, you can't get anything back above what your tax liability was.
 

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Thankfully. Now an electric Jeep with a proven Diesel engine generator would be cool as heck.
Toyota looked into diesel when developing hybrid technology. It found that for hybrid application, where the ICE engine performs a ā€œsupportingā€ role, gasoline was more efficient.
 

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The Federal tax credit is based on your tax owed. Tax witheld and tax refunds don't have anything to do with it. If you owe $7,500 in taxes you'll get a refund for the full solar credit or your taxes owed reduced by that amount if you under withheld. Tax refunds are about giving Uncle Sam 0% interest free money to play with till you file your return.

I haven't pulled the trigger yet but the Tax credit would make my heavily optioned Rubicon 4xE $45,286 out the door. That's way less than I'd be paying for a gas Rubicon and with Willys would have to add the expense of swapping out the open differentials for lockers and finding used Rubicon suspension, fenders and installation. For 95% of my onroad driving would be able to do it on the battery alone so have to add in my moderate fuel cost savings which makes the 4xE even more enticing.

Haven't made the decision to go ahead with the purchase for two reasons, a nagging health concern but hope to have that cleared up shortly and how much the extra 700# weight penalty is going to effect it's off road performance.

I may be wrong but my interpretation of torque availability is that max torque is always available in 'hybrid' mode as long as there is some battery capacity. Assume that towing a trailer up over the Great Divide would soon diminish the battery capacity and electric motor torque. That would mean a downshift in the transmission to get torque to the wheels for gasoline only progress. For most other needs max torque will be there for short bursts which are usual for max torque off road.

Question: Does the Gas Engine recharge the batteries in Hybrid mode?? If it does, will it just recharge the reserve capacity of the batteries or all the way to the top on long trips.
 
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Mess262

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I have to disagree with your opinion on implementing a somewhat new technology on the Wrangler platform. The 4xE isn't your only option if you want a Wrangler, you can also go 3.6, 2.0, diesel or 392. It probably a good idea to make the new, possibly most up-and-coming drive train on their most popular product line, where it can be real world tested and improved for future platforms. The batteries may be a big problem they are out of warranty, but Jeep gives you plenty of other engine options if you don't want to buy 4xE. And realistically, most (most not all) vehicles don't last 200k miles anyway. Not sure how you expect anyone to deploy what you are calling a new technology without ever testing or implementing it. Just because the 4xE drivetrain isn't right for you doesn't mean it isn't right for the other hundreds of thousand of Wranglers they sell.
I suppose my opinion was that the Jeep Wrangler is as mentioned somewhere here previously in a different thread, the brandā€™s namesake. The Wrangler is one of the highest value retaining vehicles in the world.they sell more Wranglers than any other model. (US sales). Having a test bed on that instead of something like the grand Cherokee (they ā€œtestedā€the diesel on that for a couple of years before it hit the JL) my opinion is that if there are major teething issues or battery replacement costs that exceed the value to the owner, it could make people salty with the model.
Now, I donā€™t have a clue what I am talking about. It was only my initial thoughts and musings. I am also looking forward to the platform. It very well could be for me honestly. I just bought my diesel 3 days ago so I could very well come to regret it. I just didnā€™t want to initially want to be an early adapter on this platform but I really hope it exceeds the expectations.
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