Just got home from Bronco event...

[twisty]

I had a TJ and it spent at least one day per month for the entire three years I owned it having something replaced or diagnosed, it was by far the most unreliable vehicle I’ve owned, but it was also enjoyable.

When I bought my FJ I wanted something as close to capable as the Wrangler as I could find but it’s had the side benefit of being 100% reliable and has tackled everything I’ve thrown at it. Were they still making them, I’d buy another in an instant but I get why Toyota needed to kill them in the US due to their poor mileage bringing down the corporate CAFE average.

However it is ten years old at this point and I keep track of Wranglers and I still like them but it’s amazing how many of the same problems JLs had that TJs had, plus the addition of many others.

I want the Bronco to force Jeep to not have a “we have your money, ha ha ha” attitude towards quality and reliability. A great example is the rear window; rear window hatches have had defoggers forever but I don’t recall the cable coming detached on TJs or JKs. I don’t recall the hinge corrosion issues occurring on TJs. Of course TJs didn’t have start/stop either.

Then again, the Bronco isn’t a foregone conclusion either; the only companies I can think of with a worse reliability record than FCA/Stellantis would be GM or Ford.

You can be a fan and be very aware of how much work Jeep has to do to become even mid-pack in terms of quality and reliability; I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

I like Mustangs too, but every time I get in one I can see the interior is made of hard plastic held together with chewing gum and would maybe think of one if they can finally make a manual transmission that doesn’t self-destruct again.

It’s not a matter of disliking Jeeps, it’s a matter of not wanting my dealer’s service manager to know me by sight should I ever buy another.

I had a TJ and the only thing I had to do is replace the evap exchanger or whatever it was called. Cost me 400 bucks. Had it from 97 to 2018. The 4.0L was a dog but legendary and probably a better off road motor then the legendary 3.6 I have now.

I think with american cars it's a crap shoot as to quality. I had a 89 bronco that was a POS from the word go. Same for my 2001 silverado 3/4 ton 4x4. Our 97 4 runner that we still have now wasnt all that great either. In jfact we have probably put more money into that vehicle than anything else we own....not even close the more I think about it. Still we love it...stupid as that makes me sound. lol

On the plus side I now have a f150 with 120k and it has been amazing. I just love that thing and understand why it is the number one selling vehicle in the country for like...ever.

Still in the plus but it's early yet. My JL experience has been pretty darn good and the ESS issue a distant memory. I just got back from 2 moab trips this month and no other vehicle experience has been as good and that is saying something.

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[aldo98229]

Ford just revealed the all-electric F-150 Lightning today: 200-300 miles of range, 2,000 lbs of payload, 10,000 lbs of towing, 0-60 in 4.5 secs., standard 4x4, a full-size 14 cu. ft. trunk in the front; starting price right under $40,000.

I am not a Ford fan, but Ford understands that the only way to remain the pickup truck leader is by, well, showing true leadership. And that’s what this new electric pickup does.

One of my key complaints when JL first came out is that FCA was not showing sufficient fresh new thinking with JL to, well, keep Jeep as the off-road leader.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Bronco is all that revolutionary. But it doesn’t need to be; Bronco is the challenger. That role fell onto Jeep and, IMO, it didn’t quite deliver.

As good as JL is, there isn’t enough innovative thinking to keep Jeep the king of the trails. FCA added EcoDiesel, 4xe, and 392 in reaction to government regulations and competitive pressures, not out of an internal passion for off-roading and maintaining true leadership on the trails.

Hopefully the new bosses at Stellantis see this and inject some innovative thinking into Jeep.

 

[CT_LFC]

How does the range, payload and towing of the F150 compare to Tesla's cybertruck?

 

[aldo98229]

How does the range, payload and towing of the F150 compare to Tesla's cybertruck?

No one knows yet.

If I were to guess, the Tesla truck will have more range and be even faster, but will have lower payload and less towing.

The Tesla truck is also likely to start above $100,000...making it the ideal poser truck.

 

[TXRubicon]

How does it compare? Well for starters, any number Ford gives beats Tesla's because...well...you know, the Lightning actually exists. Could be a 10lb towing capacity and that's still more than Tesla's vaporware.

How does the range, payload and towing of the F150 compare to Tesla's cybertruck?

 

[CT_LFC]

How does it compare? Well for starters, any number Ford gives beats Tesla's because...well...you know, the Lightning actually exists. Could be a 10lb towing capacity and that's still more than Tesla's vaporware.

Ha, good point. The Cybertruck might as well be a hologram the way the Bronco is.

 

[limeade]

Ford just revealed the all-electric F-150 Lightning today: 200-300 miles of range, 2,000 lbs of payload, 10,000 lbs of towing, 0-60 in 4.5 secs., standard 4x4, a full-size 14 cu. ft. trunk in the front; starting price right under $40,000.

I am not a Ford fan, but Ford understands that the only way to remain the pickup truck leader is by, well, showing true leadership. And that’s what this new electric pickup does.

One of my key complaints when JL first came out is that FCA was not showing sufficient fresh new thinking with JL to, well, keep Jeep as the off-road leader.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Bronco is all that revolutionary. But it doesn’t need to be; Bronco is the challenger. That role fell onto Jeep and, IMO, it didn’t quite deliver.

As good as JL is, there isn’t enough innovative thinking to keep Jeep the king of the trails. FCA added EcoDiesel, 4xe, and 392 in reaction to government regulations and competitive pressures, not out of an internal passion for off-roading and maintaining true leadership on the trails.

Hopefully the new bosses at Stellantis see this and inject some innovative thinking into Jeep.

I'll agree with you on this.

However, in 2003 Jeep went way out on the edge with innovative thinking when it first offered the Rubicon sub-model. None of the major manufacturers offered anything as radical in design and engineering back then.....heck, most still don't. Am I a Jeep fan boy (god I hate the term Fan Boy...!). Yes, because no other manufacturer has or can offer what a Jeep Wrangler does.

2003 was a major transformative year for a factory built AND warrantied off road, yet street legal vehicle: front and rear Dana 44's with 4.10 gearing, front and rear lockers, 4.1 transfer case, rock rails (they were weak, but hey it was a start), 31" MT tires (not even big by today's standards) and you could get all of that with AC! They were also the first to offer electronic disconnect sway bar and 32", then 33" tires (maybe the Power Wagon was....not sure).

I think the Jeep Wrangler has done a good job of being not only relevant, but the industry leader for a mass produced vehicles which is at home on or off road. And I'm not talking about a Subrau, Explorer, etc. type of off road environment. Stock Rubicons have and continue to do more hard core trails: Rubicon, etc. In 2002, I saw over a dozen stock Rubicon's hidden away at the Reno, NV Jeep dealer. Jeep had just got done going through the Rubicon trail with them. Their only modifications were winches. Yeah they had gouges on the wheels and some scrapes. But they were still perfectly driveable.

They have continued being the leader by offering stronger than ever factory axles, a very good 4 wheel disc brake system, eTorque (I love it), electronic locking differentials, an excellent UConnect and Nav system (especially with the 8.4 screen), and a well appointed interior for an off road oriented vehicle. There's things they can do better, but none of the minor issues would sway me to look at a vehicle which is not nearly as capable or fun as a Wrangler.

IF the Ford Bronco can do the Rubicon trail with only having a winch for a modification, then I'll give it some off road cred. Until then, the Wrangler IS the benchmark for a stock factory built and warrantied off road vehicle. Everyone else is just pandering to the masses who want to drive something which looks rugged, but really isn't.

 

[Thx1158]

I had a TJ and it spent at least one day per month for the entire three years I owned it having something replaced or diagnosed, it was by far the most unreliable vehicle I’ve owned, but it was also enjoyable.

When I bought my FJ I wanted something as close to capable as the Wrangler as I could find but it’s had the side benefit of being 100% reliable and has tackled everything I’ve thrown at it. Were they still making them, I’d buy another in an instant but I get why Toyota needed to kill them in the US due to their poor mileage bringing down the corporate CAFE average.

However it is ten years old at this point and I keep track of Wranglers and I still like them but it’s amazing how many of the same problems JLs had that TJs had, plus the addition of many others.

I want the Bronco to force Jeep to not have a “we have your money, ha ha ha” attitude towards quality and reliability. A great example is the rear window; rear window hatches have had defoggers forever but I don’t recall the cable coming detached on TJs or JKs. I don’t recall the hinge corrosion issues occurring on TJs. Of course TJs didn’t have start/stop either.

Then again, the Bronco isn’t a foregone conclusion either; the only companies I can think of with a worse reliability record than FCA/Stellantis would be GM or Ford.

You can be a fan and be very aware of how much work Jeep has to do to become even mid-pack in terms of quality and reliability; I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

I like Mustangs too, but every time I get in one I can see the interior is made of hard plastic held together with chewing gum and would maybe think of one if they can finally make a manual transmission that doesn’t self-destruct again.

It’s not a matter of disliking Jeeps, it’s a matter of not wanting my dealer’s service manager to know me by sight should I ever buy another.

"It’s not a matter of disliking Jeeps, it’s a matter of not wanting my dealer’s service manager to know me by sight should I ever buy another.".

Like the Toyota Service managers I had with my POS 2018 Tacoma? Never had ANY problems with my JK's or my JL. Had one issue with my TJ when it was new. My Toyota was junk from the first time it left me stranded and the dealer couldn't figure out why. In the three years I owned it, it spent weeks in service, replacing parts and hoping it was fixed. I should have went after them with the "Lemon Law".

Tons of folks swear by the legendary Toyota reliability...but that wasn't my experience at all with the brand. Nor was it the experience of my friend with his 19 Toyota...he had issues but they were fixed. Two Tacoma's out of the thousands sold each month. I can relate to you if your TJ suffered a similar fate.

Should I paint Toyota with a broad brush of failure because of my one Tacoma claiming sub par and mid pack reliability? Should I lurk on the Tacoma forums and decry the brand? I will relate my experiences as a one off with MY truck when I see folks claim things like 100% reliability, reminding them that NOTHING is 100% reliable and not everyone's experiences are the same.

 

[aldo98229]

I'll agree with you on this.

However, in 2003 Jeep went way out on the edge with innovative thinking when it first offered the Rubicon sub-model. None of the major manufacturers offered anything as radical in design and engineering back then.....heck, most still don't. Am I a Jeep fan boy (god I hate the term Fan Boy...!). Yes, because no other manufacturer has or can offer what a Jeep Wrangler does.

2003 was a major transformative year for a factory built AND warrantied off road, yet street legal vehicle: front and rear Dana 44's with 4.10 gearing, front and rear lockers, 4.1 transfer case, rock rails (they were weak, but hey it was a start), 31" MT tires (not even big by today's standards) and you could get all of that with AC! They were also the first to offer electronic disconnect sway bar and 32", then 33" tires (maybe the Power Wagon was....not sure).

I think the Jeep Wrangler has done a good job of being not only relevant, but the industry leader for a mass produced vehicles which is at home on or off road. And I'm not talking about a Subrau, Explorer, etc. type of off road environment. Stock Rubicons have and continue to do more hard core trails: Rubicon, etc. In 2002, I saw over a dozen stock Rubicon's hidden away at the Reno, NV Jeep dealer. Jeep had just got done going through the Rubicon trail with them. Their only modifications were winches. Yeah they had gouges on the wheels and some scrapes. But they were still perfectly driveable.

They have continued being the leader by offering stronger than ever factory axles, a very good 4 wheel disc brake system, eTorque (I love it), electronic locking differentials, an excellent UConnect and Nav system (especially with the 8.4 screen), and a well appointed interior for an off road oriented vehicle. There's things they can do better, but none of the minor issues would sway me to look at a vehicle which is not nearly as capable or fun as a Wrangler.

IF the Ford Bronco can do the Rubicon trail with only having a winch for a modification, then I'll give it some off road cred. Until then, the Wrangler IS the benchmark for a stock factory built and warrantied off road vehicle. Everyone else is just pandering to the masses who want to drive something which looks rugged, but really isn't.

The fact that Rubicon remains king of the trail thanks to an innovation introduced 18 years ago is not a formula for long-term success, though. Particularly because this strategy relies not on what Jeep does, but on betting that the competition won’t do the same.

With JL, FCA chose to spend its time and money updating Wrangler’s daily driving comfort and convenience features, and that has paid dividends in short-term sales. But a true off-road leader would be pushing the envelop by offering innovations for the trail.

The technology already exists for things like tire air-down and air-up. How about a rear swaybar disconnect...?

I am making stuff up here. My point being that a true market leader doesn’t sit still waiting for the competition to catch up.

 

[COBill]

Like the Toyota Service managers I had with my POS 2018 Tacoma? Never had ANY problems with my JK's or my JL. Had one issue with my TJ when it was new. My Toyota was junk from the first time it left me stranded and the dealer couldn't figure out why. In the three years I owned it, it spent weeks in service, replacing parts and hoping it was fixed. I should have went after them with the "Lemon Law".

Admittedly, Tacomas have been a sore spot, mostly because they are made in North America. For the truly reliable Toyotas you need ones made in Japan. That sounds like so much generalization, but it has proven to be true, even with vehicles like the Lexus RX350, where the ones made in Japan have a much higher reliability record than the ones made in Canada.

I would have lemoned my TJ if there things that kept me dead off the road, but instead it was silly things like the entire gauge cluster going dead for ten minutes or so then coming back to life. The driveshaft needing to be replaced every two months because it started clunking when shifting between forward and reverse gears. The four clock springs I went through because the horn would just stop working at some point.

The thing is, when brought up on Jeep forums at the time, all these issues and more were brushed away with an attitude of "It's a Jeep, you should be replacing that driveshaft yourself anyway" and my favorite, when TJ paint issues came up the predominant response was "Just get a rattle can of touch-up paint. Jeeps arent supposed to have good paint."

Now perhaps the failures of TJs were to be expected, but now that a Rubicon is $75K, that price generally comes with a better build standard than "Wow, two dissimilar metals in contact corrode? Who woulda thought?"

Regardless, Jeep has a lot of work to do in terms of quality and reliability, and even their biggest fans will readily admit to that most of the time. (The same is true of Ford.) Hopefully the entrance of the Bronco into the market will force both companies to up their game.

It's not a matter that stories like this occur:

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...horrible-experience-does-fca-even-care.72563/

It's that they seem to occur more often with Wranglers than should be the case in 2021, and have for at least thirty years across multiple corporate owners.

Note that many of the issues in the thread linked above are due to completely uncaring dealers and area managers, which are also issues Jeep really needs to fix.

Full disclosure: I once had a Chevy repuchased as a lemon, and GM treated me so poorly that I will never purchase a GM vehicle of any kind again, so I'm particularly sensitive to the stories of area managers blowing off issues with "they all do that."

 

[Dave91gt]

As a Jeep owner and a Ford owner I wanted to chime in.
My wife and I bought our first Wrangler back in 2003 (2000 Sport) when our son was 3 years old. It was her daily work vehicle. Since then, we've sprinkled in various Wranglers in between buying family haulers (all Fords). The 98 TJ in our profile pic was a surprise to her in 2016. It is very similar to her original and is really her summer toy. I looked at TJ's for almost a year to find one with a good frame. Found this one and installed a 4" lift and 33's. It sits in the garage alongside our two Foxbody Mustangs until she gets a nice day she wants to drive it. Its a "forever" vehicle now.
Our JLU was bought in 2019 used with 5200 miles. Original owner traded it on a Lexus. Anyway, of all the vehicles we have bought new (I considered this one new when we bought it), the JLU has been the biggest problem child of all. Between death wobble, poor steering, electronics freezing up, top and back door squeaks, speakers crackling, etc. its been a tale of love and hate. Its beautiful, fun, and is comfortable for what it is. But the quality issues with only 26,000 miles are by far worse than any single Ford we have ever owned. The thing with FCA products is when they have an issue, it is widespread. Not one-off issues it seems. All of our JLU issues are common issues on this very forum. Most people just either have it and deal with it because they love their Jeep or simply got lucky and either never had it or had a dealer that fixed it. My real experience with Ford over the years has been overall very positive. My F250 has 32,000 miles and the only issue has been a corroded battery terminal. No squeaks, rattles, or steering issues. We have owned three ecoboost vehicles in the past (my 2014 F150, her Explorer Sport, and an Expedition). Not a single one of them ever saw a trip to the dealer for anything related to quality issues. Maybe I am just lucky?
In our case, the JLU will be traded. We aren't rock crawlers and have a lot of interstate driving and backroads. The IFS will benefit us. We test drove a Ranger to get a basis for comparison and the 2.3 itself felt stronger than the 3.6 and the steering was tight and sharp. Ours will be the even more powerful 2.7 V6 with a sasquatch package. If it turns out to be a lemon, we will dump it. Ford knows they have to get out of the gate with a solid vehicle and have tested this thing on every trail Jeep does. And had the confidence to show it off doing just that. I just cant see an automaker doing that kind of R&D to put out a bad product. Our TJ is staying like I said. My wife has major love for it and I have had to fix just about everything on it. Id jump in it and drive across country right now if I had to. But for her daily and our "fun" vehicle, its going to be a Bronco.

 

[4xFUN]

Admittedly, Tacomas have been a sore spot, mostly because they are made in North America. For the truly reliable Toyotas you need ones made in Japan. That sounds like so much generalization, but it has proven to be true, even with vehicles like the Lexus RX350, where the ones made in Japan have a much higher reliability record than the ones made in Canada.

I would have lemoned my TJ if there things that kept me dead off the road, but instead it was silly things like the entire gauge cluster going dead for ten minutes or so then coming back to life. The driveshaft needing to be replaced every two months because it started clunking when shifting between forward and reverse gears. The four clock springs I went through because the horn would just stop working at some point.

The thing is, when brought up on Jeep forums at the time, all these issues and more were brushed away with an attitude of "It's a Jeep, you should be replacing that driveshaft yourself anyway" and my favorite, when TJ paint issues came up the predominant response was "Just get a rattle can of touch-up paint. Jeeps arent supposed to have good paint."

Now perhaps the failures of TJs were to be expected, but now that a Rubicon is $75K, that price generally comes with a better build standard than "Wow, two dissimilar metals in contact corrode? Who woulda thought?"

Regardless, Jeep has a lot of work to do in terms of quality and reliability, and even their biggest fans will readily admit to that most of the time. (The same is true of Ford.) Hopefully the entrance of the Bronco into the market will force both companies to up their game.

It's not a matter that stories like this occur:

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/fo...horrible-experience-does-fca-even-care.72563/

It's that they seem to occur more often with Wranglers than should be the case in 2021, and have for at least thirty years across multiple corporate owners.

Note that many of the issues in the thread linked above are due to completely uncaring dealers and area managers, which are also issues Jeep really needs to fix.

Full disclosure: I once had a Chevy repuchased as a lemon, and GM treated me so poorly that I will never purchase a GM vehicle of any kind again, so I'm particularly sensitive to the stories of area managers blowing off issues with "they all do that."

Most folks who have read more than one of your post are likely to assume you are some type of troll...

 

[COBill]

Most folks who have read more than one of your post are likely to assume you are some type of troll...

People are free to assume whatever they like.

 

[FrostySerb]

People are free to assume whatever they like.

I agree, I thinks it’s just kind of odd you spend so much time participating in a community that revolves around a product (for whatever reasons) you don’t like. With that your comments n on the negative aspects of it ... hence the thought of being a “troll”.

I think the FJ is one of the ugliest vehicles ever produced, I really do. However there are things about them that I do like ... this would be like me having an account on an FJ forum and constantly talking about how they should have redesigned it before discontinuing it because I had a 4Runner back in the day and it was ugly too, but I see potential in the brand?!?... Seems like a lot of time/energy spent in a negative capacity but to each their own.

 

[COBill]

I agree, I thinks it’s just kind of odd you spend so much time participating in a community that revolves around a product (for whatever reasons) you don’t like. With that your comments n on the negative aspects of it ... hence the thought of being a “troll”.

I think the FJ is one of the ugliest vehicles ever produced, I really do. However there are things about them that I do like ... this would be like me having an account on an FJ forum and constantly talking about how they should have redesigned it before discontinuing it because I had a 4Runner back in the day and it was ugly too, but I see potential in the brand?!?... Seems like a lot of time/energy spent in a negative capacity but to each their own.

Many people do do that.

It's not trolling, it's expressing an opinion about a product.

I'd agree if I spent all day saying "Ha, ha, you guys are a bunch of losers, go buy a Toyota (or a Bronco for that matter)," but I don't.

I like Jeeps, I'd love to own one again, but would prefer Jeep not figuratively flip off their customers first.

No one can with a clear conscious say the issues with the hinges, rear window defroster cables that don't stay attached or months-long waits for parts are in any way acceptable failures for any $75K+ new vehicle, and frankly would not be acceptable for a Kia.

That doesn't mean I "don't like" them. The fact that I own an FJ now is no more germane to my statements than if I owned any other vehicle.

If that makes me a troll, so be it, but it's not going to stop me from pointing out Jeep shortcomings while hoping that someday they will make a product with higher quality.

As far as considering an FJ ugly, that's fine, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I bought my FJ specifically for the style it is, and given how prevalent they are around me many, many others did too.

I personally feel all four door Wranglers are an abomination, but a majority of Wrangler buyers seem to love them, so its personal preference - heck, people willingly bought Pontiac Azteks in the day.

I might even own a 4Runner today, except you can't get them with stick, and I refuse to buy a vehicle with an automatic transmission.

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