Jumping battery if alone?

[imapseudonym]

Hello all,

I've read a ton of threads regarding the Wrangler being difficult to jump should the battery die. We're getting ready for a trip here in about a month and this is a concern for me. Is there any battery packs that would charge it enough to jump start should the batteries die? We're going to have our ARB Fridge hooked up so want ot be prepared in case the battery doesn't shut itself off quick enough.

I know the ESS and dual battery setup with that gives it a lot of hell. And I never could find a thread on if a battery charging pack worked or not.

Please let me know what's worked and what you recommend.

Thank you!!

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[Rhinebeck01]

@imapseudonym

Suggest you carry battery cables. I am carrying a set.

By personal experience with my JL, I can tell you even a top notch battery pack will not have enough, lets call it oomph to start a JL with depleted batteries. If you have cables, and have a good 12v donor vehicle, you should be successful with the jump start. I was ....

 

[imapseudonym]

@imapseudonym

Suggest you carry battery cables. I am carrying a set.

By personal experience with my JL, I can tell you even a top notch battery pack will not have enough, lets call it oomph to start a JL with depleted batteries. If you have cables, and have a good 12v donor vehicle, you should be successful with the jump start. I was ....

That's what worrying me. We're cruising out alone so need a self sustained solution. Curious if anyone has tested one yet. Our last Jeep we had a genesis dual battery setup. But lo and behold doesn't exist for a JL for obvious reasons :p

 

[Jebiruph]

That's what worrying me. We're cruising out alone so need a self sustained solution. Curious if anyone has tested one yet. Our last Jeep we had a genesis dual battery setup. But lo and behold doesn't exist for a JL for obvious reasons :p

It has arrived! Now just waiting on the batteries...

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/genesis-off-road-dual-battery-kit.5422/

 

[imapseudonym]

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/genesis-off-road-dual-battery-kit.5422/

dont tell me its out!

 

[imapseudonym]

https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/genesis-off-road-dual-battery-kit.5422/

Oh man thank you I didn't even realize it was out! Will be buying this ha!

 

[Covfefe]

 

[aml]

Sure is

 

[RussJeep1]

Let's assume Mr Halon of Jeep Informant is correct here (maybe he isn't), and that the rig will turn over with no main battery, just a charged ESS one.



If this is the case, would not a poor man's solution to the OP's problem be to, once out on the road and stopped, disconnect the cables from the main battery (2 seconds with a drill as in the video), and connect all your gear to (only) this now electrically isolated main battery?

If you run that main battery all but dead, (not that I suggest you do) ( and reconnect its cables prior to crank???) as long as the ESS battery has juice--a battery you didn't connect to for your accessories--so it should have power, wouldn't the rig turn over to then begin charging both the main and ESS batteries?

I don't claim to know the logistics of replacing the ESS battery with a larger one (and what type) if you want a bit more insurance, let alone the space constraints of doing so barring the aforementioned kit, which you've got to admit is pretty darn pricey BEFORE the batteries it holds, but for this price, you could probably install some high amperage toggle switches to make isolation of the main battery easier than having to disconnect its cables and risk arcing.

I do recognize that this kit does more than hold two batteries. It probably has a lot of circuitry, and could be important to the habitual Overlander.

...and it might (I just don't know) have to involve connecting back the main battery AFTER the rig has turned over. I admit to not knowing what happens if the rig sees a dead main battery compared to NO main battery when it attempts an initial (as opposed to an ESS) crank.

 

[Jebiruph]

Let's assume Mr Halon of Jeep Informant is correct here (maybe he isn't), and that the rig will turn over with no main battery, just a charged ESS one.

If this is the case, would not a poor man's solution to the OP's problem be to, once out on the road and stopped, disconnect the cables from the main battery (2 seconds with a drill as in the video), and connect all your gear to (only) this now electrically isolated main battery?

If you run that main battery all but dead, (not that I suggest you do) ( and reconnect its cables prior to crank???) as long as the ESS battery has juice--a battery you didn't connect to for your accessories--so it should have power, wouldn't the rig turn over to then begin charging both the main and ESS batteries?

I don't claim to know the logistics of replacing the ESS battery with a larger one (and what type) if you want a bit more insurance, let alone the space constraints of doing so barring the aforementioned kit, which you've got to admit is pretty darn pricey BEFORE the batteries it holds, but for this price, you could probably install some high amperage toggle switches to make isolation of the main battery easier than having to disconnect its cables and risk arcing.

I do recognize that this kit does more than hold two batteries. It probably has a lot of circuitry, and could be important to the habitual Overlander.

...and it might (I just don't know) have to involve connecting back the main battery AFTER the rig has turned over. I admit to not knowing what happens if the rig sees a dead main battery compared to NO main battery when it attempts an initial (as opposed to an ESS) crank.

You don't have to assume he's correct, he shows starting with the Aux battery. I see two issues with your method, you mentioned one. There's a big difference between just starting and starting while charging another battery. The second issue is the apparent fragility of the Aux battery, not something I want to rely on in the middle of nowhere. The existing system can be finagled to reduce the chance getting stranded, but for the cost of the dual battery system, it's probably not worth risking.

The weak links in the factory dual battery system are the fragile Aux battery and not isolating the batteries so they don't drain each other. Who wouldn't pay $1000 just to fix both of those problems even if you are just driving to the mall? Well, I wouldn't just yet, but I'm giving it serious consideration just to improve everyday reliability.

 

[Hgrace]

I have one of these. Have jumped my Ford V10 motorhome my Silverado 2500HD and my 2006 Charger.
Just be sure it's 100% when you head out. You can recharge 120v or 12v.
Cheap insurance.
Also has USB and 120v inverter for small devices.
I wouldn't count on the air compressor for anything but a bike which I have done.
Schumacher SJ1289 1200 Amp 12V Jump Starter with Air Compressor https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BGQH6T5/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_zcl9BbD4GWYH6

 

[aml]

I use one of these as a backup. I have used it to start a tractor trailer. It is pretty stout!

 

[RussJeep1]

You don't have to assume he's correct, he shows starting with the Aux battery. I see two issues with your method, you mentioned one. There's a big difference between just starting and starting while charging another battery. The second issue is the apparent fragility of the Aux battery, not something I want to rely on in the middle of nowhere. The existing system can be finagled to reduce the chance getting stranded, but for the cost of the dual battery system, it's probably not worth risking.

The weak links in the factory dual battery system are the fragile Aux battery and not isolating the batteries so they don't drain each other. Who wouldn't pay $1000 just to fix both of those problems even if you are just driving to the mall? Well, I wouldn't just yet, but I'm giving it serious consideration just to improve everyday reliability.

Jerry: while I'm the first to consider my approach a hack, here's where I don't follow you.

We agree that the rig turns over solely with the ESS battery right? Once that happens the alternator, then, running off of the engine charges the batteries, right? I'm not seeing the concurrency I seem to glean from your post about charging and cranking happening simultaneously--at least if the main battery has been isolated, accessories run off it, and not reconnected until post successfully crank. Even if the main battery is connected at crank, and all but dead, I want to say that the two batteries are electronically (if not physically by separating cables) isolated during crank (I may be wrong.) My issue with the main and all but dead battery being connected at crank is what the rig's computer might see as the difference between a (all but but) dead main battery and one it simply can't get reading off of, if any, because it is isolated with its posts void of cables.

I do agree about the fragility of the ESS battery but can't help but wonder if I could find some space under the hood for a larger battery, compatible with the ESS battery and system, to replace the ESS battery (assuming the alternator and other rig systems can handle it, etc.)

Clearly, if this kit has found room, space exists for some manufacturer's two batteries, but I cannot speak to the extent that the original main battery and the space it takes up places a role in this manufacturer's dual system.

(Did I hear the ESS and main battery used different technologies?)

I don't think the likelihood of getting stranded may be as high as you fear, although I do agree that since for me it's more likely to be in civilization and not far from help, I don't need this kit as would an offroader. If my ESS is enabling (true: "disablers" might not know) I guess I can assume the ESS has sufficient power because the rig tests the ESS battery and wouldn't turn on ESS, and even fire diagnostics if it was failing.

Of course with time, if ESS batteries start failing left and right, you may be right. But I'd like to think that if this is the case, FCA may have to step in and remedy the problem somehow.

I know, wishful thinking. But FCA doesn't want its' mall crawler JL owners failing to crank left and right.

I would not be happy paying $1000 to resolve these problems because if they become regular for me and pervasive for other owners, they are, I think, the subject of recalls, not owner monetary outlay.

P.S. I assumed Mr. Halon correct rather than considering it certain because there was debate on the board as to whether Mr. Halon's report of terminal 5 of the PDS in fact being the lead to the ESS battery was correct.

 

[Jebiruph]

Jerry: while I'm the first to consider my approach a hack, here's where I don't follow you.

We agree that the rig turns over solely with the ESS battery right? Once that happens the alternator, then, running off of the engine charges the batteries, right? I'm not seeing the concurrency I seem to glean from your post about charging and cranking happening simultaneously--at least if the main battery has been isolated, accessories run off it, and not reconnected until post successfully crank. Even if the main battery is connected at crank, and all but dead, I want to say that the two batteries are electronically (if not physically by separating cables) isolated during crank (I may be wrong.) My issue with the main and all but dead battery being connected at crank is what the rig's computer might see as the difference between a (all but but) dead main battery and one it simply can't get reading off of, if any, because it is isolated with its posts void of cables.

I do agree about the fragility of the ESS battery but can't help but wonder if I could find some space under the hood for a larger battery, compatible with the ESS battery and system, to replace the ESS battery (assuming the alternator and other rig systems can handle it, etc.)

Clearly, if this kit has found room, space exists for some manufacturer's two batteries, but I cannot speak to the extent that the original main battery and the space it takes up places a role in this manufacturer's dual system.

(Did I hear the ESS and main battery used different technologies?)

I don't think the likelihood of getting stranded may be as high as you fear, although I do agree that since for me it's more likely to be in civilization and not far from help, I don't need this kit as would an offroader. If my ESS is enabling (true: "disablers" might not know) I guess I can assume the ESS has sufficient power because the rig tests the ESS battery and wouldn't turn on ESS, and even fire diagnostics if it was failing.

Of course with time, if ESS batteries start failing left and right, you may be right. But I'd like to think that if this is the case, FCA may have to step in and remedy the problem somehow.

I know, wishful thinking. But FCA doesn't want its' mall crawler JL owners failing to crank left and right.

I would not be happy paying $1000 to resolve these problems because if they become regular for me and pervasive for other owners, they are, I think, the subject of recalls, not owner monetary outlay.

P.S. I assumed Mr. Halon correct rather than considering it certain because there was debate on the board as to whether Mr. Halon's report of terminal 5 of the PDS in fact being the lead to the ESS battery was correct.

The only time by design that the batteries are separated is when auto stopped. The Aux battery has been demonstrated to start the engine, but there is a reason why it's called the Aux battery and the other battery is the CRK (Main) battery and why the starter is connected to the CRK (Main) battery. Think about it, your are auto stopped and the batteries are separated, isn't the battery that's connected to the starter going to be the one that starts the engine?

Electricity will flow proportionally based on resistance. A dead battery will have less resistance than the starter, so will initially most of the electricity will go to the dead battery. As the battery charges, more electricity will be available to the starter. As demonstrated, you can remove the positive terminal from the dead CRK(Main) battery and a charged Aux battery should start the engine without the impairment of also charging the dead battery. Then you have to reconnected the positive terminal while the engine is running.

As far as the likelihood of getting stranded, in the OP's case regarding running accessories while stopped, he is right to be concerned. And with normal operation in civilization, people are getting stranded due to bad Aux batteries. I am not aware of any Aux battery monitoring, the IBS monitors the CRK(Main) battery, which is why people get stranded with bad Aux batteries.

Find a Pacifica forum and see what they say about their dual battery ESS system. They've had it longer than us and have experienced the same issues and Aux battery shortages. And yet the same or similar system was installed in the JL. There won't be a recall due to a maintenance issue like bad batteries.

 

[RussJeep1]

The only time by design that the batteries are separated is when auto stopped.

Okay. But this is why I suggested physically isolating the main battery by detaching all cables from its posts once the OP is docked at a campsite.

The Aux battery has been demonstrated to start the engine, but there is a reason why it's called the Aux battery and the other battery is the CRK (Main) battery and why the starter is connected to the CRK (Main) battery

Are you speaking about the starter connected to the main battery during ESS operations?
If so--and you may not be--here's what I think I know. The starter must be connected to the ESS/Aux battery upon initial (not ESS) crank or else Mr. Halon, assuming he's correct, (something you don't take issue with) could not have produced the very successful initial crank we both cite, and Mr. Halon did it with the main battery completely taken out of the electrical equation here through physical isolation and removal of cables from its posts.

Think about it, your are auto stopped and the batteries are separated, isn't the battery that's connected to the starter going to be the one that starts the engine?

Jerry, likely with the best of intentions you seem to be schooling me in topics that I'm not only aware of, but more important, are irrelevant here. Maybe you're discussing the academics here rather than, so much the OPs problem or my possible solution working or not, and I'm missing that context, off topic though it is, and okay to discuss if cited as such.

We're not auto stopped. Instead we're initially cranking the engine at a campsite with a, for argument sake dead and otherwise isolated main battery. I feel like, maybe I'm wrong here, that you are trying to poke holes in my suggestion--which is fine, even encouraged if done so with fact--by bringing up scenarios that are not reflective of the OPs original inquiry or germane to why my suggestion would not work.

By all means keep the ESS/Aux (call it what you will) battery in the equation here, but leave out any mention of the ESS feature of the JL unless its factually germane to the initial engine crank. Assume the OP presses the ESS off button the moment the engine cranks (at the camp site with the dead and isolated main battery). Or assume the OP has a CANbus Tazer device which does this automatically upon initial crank.

Electricity will flow proportionally based on resistance. A dead battery will have less resistance than the starter, so will initially most of the electricity will go to the dead battery.

There's no dead battery for the ESS/Aux battery to dissipate its charge into upon crank as the main battery is physically disconnected. When this main battery is reconnected, say after initial crank, or if this suggestion works, just immediately prior to initial campsite crank, while I respect your concern that the ESS/Aux battery then begins draining into the main battery, the fact also remains that now, with the engine on, the alternator is also charging both batteries.

I don't question that one may have to leave the engine on sometime to restore the batteries' charge, or even drive without stop to the nearest service area to charge the batteries through external means---but if the topic here (and I hope it is) is how the OP starts his rig after using campsite appliances against only a disconnected main battery that has arguable lost much or all of its charge, I don't respectively see how you've used fact to find the OP stranded and unable to start and operate his rig. It is entirely possible that I've missed something in your explanation.

As the battery charges, more electricity will be available to the starter.

Jerry, again, it's not so much your statements I take issue with but their relevance to the OPs concerns and what I at least hoped was the topic at hand, which is: would my suggestion work?

We've successfully and initially cranked the engine without the main battery. We've reconnected the main battery, say, post successful crank. The ESS system is turned off, and we're on our way home. The starter's capabilities won't be summoned again until we've first reach a charging location, be it the service station or home.

The point is that as long as we have enough gasoline to take us to civilization, we're not, I hope stranded with our rig in the middle of nowhere. Do you concur?

As demonstrated, you can remove the positive terminal from the dead CRK(Main) battery and a charged Aux battery should start the engine without the impairment of also charging the dead battery. Then you have to reconnected the positive terminal while the engine is running.

As far as the likelihood of getting stranded, in the OP's case regarding running accessories while stopped, he is right to be concerned.

Jerry, again, my point---that I hope you were addressing--if the OP isolates the main battery and runs his campsite gear off of it, and then follows my plan...yes or no, do you think, provided his ESS battery is working (and most owner's ESS batteries, at least right now, are) that he'll be able to successfully crank his engine and get back to civilization to get a charge, or even better have the rig solve his battery drainage issues automatically via the alternator, provided he spends enough time driving the rig between the campsite and his next crank, ESS system off?

And with normal operation in civilization, people are getting stranded due to bad Aux batteries. I am not aware of any Aux battery monitoring, the IBS monitors the CRK(Main) battery, which is why people get stranded with bad Aux batteries.

Jerry, i feel like you're beating a dead horse---a very valid one, but a dead one because it's been discussed and is otherwise not the OPs immediate concern, at least in the scenario I provided. I don't disagree that as additional insurance here, as I've stated, that the ESS battery possibly be replaced with something more substantial: whether overlanding or parking over the shopping mall parking spot lines.

But the issue, as I see it for the OP is: assume the ESS battery has charge (most do), do you think my solution will work? That's all that's at the moment on the table--at least for me.

Find a Pacifica forum and see what they say about their dual battery ESS system. They've had it longer than us and have experienced the same issues and Aux battery shortages. And yet the same or similar system was installed in the JL. There won't be a recall due to a maintenance issue like bad batteries.

I take no issue with what your saying as it regards fact, only its relevance to the question at hand. Maybe I should have said up front, assume the ESS battery is working. This is a fair assumption. With it dead people could not start their rigs, and most people, at least right now, early into ownership, can.

By all means if you want to make the somewhat off topic argument that this ESS system is, because of its battery and design, in time, a problem waiting to happen, that's fine and I take no issue with that statement. If you want to suggest that this issue puts my solution into risk of not working, that's fine too. But if the ESS battery is operational, do you think my suggestion plausible.

I certainly can accept "no," as an answer if justification is provided outside of autostart and ESS battery reliability concerns.

Jerry: an analogy. I'm asking, "under these conditions can the prisoner escape the jail (beig stranded)--assuming his crew (the service station/home) is a manageable number of miles away ready to take him to safety," and I feel like you're talking about "the conditions the at large escapee faces regarding finding food."

My point stated another way. A dead ESS battery won't initially crank a rig with a full or dead main battery while an alive ESS battery will. So why would taxing the main battery alone, at campsite, leave the OP stranded assuming the ESS system is turned off so it never engages post initial successful crank (via the ESS battery), on way to charging the main battery via time with the engine on and/or reaching an external charging location?

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