JL Security in the Digital Age

OP
OP

RussJeep1

Banned
Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
2,548
Reaction score
1,928
Location
Westchester, NY
Vehicle(s)
JLU Sahara
My JK has the following : (a) Club ; (b) stainless steel chain anchored to seat extender and wrapped around steering wheel and club , and padlocked ; (c) Tuffy hood lock ; (d) wheel locks ; spare inside , and heavy-duty bicycle chain lock if spare ever put in trail rack outside ; (e) black card over vin behind windshield preventing dealer giving thief entry to my vin ; (f , g , and h) various strong means of self-defense within reach .

Theft has happened to others , but not to me . Wonder why ?
Please know that I completely respect your right to lock your rig to the extent you see fit. It is your time to engage and disengage said devices, pay for them, or the loss of your rig in their absence, and assess the security risks in the venues you take it. Depending upon the age of your rig you may (smartly) have decided to remove the comprehensive insurance coverage on it that might give you book value for its loss.

Still more, as I digress from the point I seek to make, I laugh at book value--as if it would buy you a replacement rig in the marketplace that might be maintained as well as people like you who go out of their way to secure it, must have no doubt well maintained it since purchase.

That said, and in light of people's well received comments here that theft deterrence is relative, not absolute, personally speaking, I'd seek one, maybe two devices tops, on top of FCA's security, that offer me the biggest security bang for the buck. The frequency of my access to it, and its lessor value than, say, securing enriched uranium, would likely motivate my laziness.
Advertisement

 
OP
OP

RussJeep1

Banned
Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
2,548
Reaction score
1,928
Location
Westchester, NY
Vehicle(s)
JLU Sahara
Do some Remote Proximity Keyless Entry and/or keyless start systems on other vehicles (I presume not the JL) send out ever changing encryption keys via radio waves, or at least repeat sending their signal (ever changing or not) when either their Remote Proximity Keyless Entry systems are summons via a pull on either vehicle front door, or a pushing of the engine crank button occurs?

(I'll explain where I'm going with this idea shortly.)

I'd assume that under such a system that when such a signal is received by the Fob, it might be responded to (as pretty much all these keyless systems do, JL or not) in a manner that is specific to that ever changing encryption key?

Here's my point. Thieves working in pairs sneak up to your rig and you. Thief #1 pulls the vehicle's front door handles, which causes the rig to send out a radio signal (as is currently the case,) amplified to travel a distance via electronic equipment in thief #1's possession, to thief #2 stationed, say, near you at the window seat of some somewhat distanced restaurant (or even your home). Thief #2 receives the rig's repeated/amplified signal and using similar electronic equipment to thief #1, repeats that signal to your nearby key Fob, which responds to it. The Fob's signal then gets picked up by thief #2, and repeated/amplified to thief #1, who retransmits it and opens your rig.

Maybe thief #2's gear records your Fob's response to memory so it can be polled at any time.

Okay, so thief #1 is driving away, picking up thief #2 (or at least his/her electronic equipment) in route to the nearest "chop shop," but the rig sends repeated verification signals to the fob, which now no longer responds. Thief #2 may have recorded the Fob's reply to memory, but if that reply is specific to each rig's ever changing encryption key, the recorded Fob's reply proves inadequate and the rig shuts down.

I know this is fraught with potential programs including draining a Fob's battery, to "turning" on a legitimate driver when the Fob's battery or the circuitry in the Fob or rig fail.

So maybe the Fob sends a noise when it transmits signal such that the rig owner in the restaurant knows he/she is being pinged?? Maybe there's a switch on the Fob (I know, add a switch and add another part subject to break) that sends a signal when the Fob is being summons by the rig, that only allows the Fob to return signal when the owner expressly presses a Fob button. We'll call that toggle switch's two settings , "away" and "at rig."

Any poster that responds: "this is a classic cops and robbers game where no matter how intricate you make the security, if someone wants your rig bad enough, they'll steal it," would be absolutely right!
 

PavementWarrior

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
Messages
1,231
Reaction score
1,836
Location
CA
Vehicle(s)
2018 2 door JL
Do some Remote Proximity Keyless Entry and/or keyless start systems on other vehicles (I presume not the JL) send out ever changing encryption keys via radio waves, or at least repeat sending their signal (ever changing or not) when either their Remote Proximity Keyless Entry systems are summons via a pull on either vehicle front door, or a pushing of the engine crank button occurs?

(I'll explain where I'm going with this idea shortly.)

I'd assume that under such a system that when such a signal is received by the Fob, it might be responded to (as pretty much all these keyless systems do, JL or not) in a manner that is specific to that ever changing encryption key?

Here's my point. Thieves working in pairs sneak up to your rig and you. Thief #1 pulls the vehicle's front door handles, which causes the rig to send out a radio signal (as is currently the case,) amplified to travel a distance via electronic equipment in thief #1's possession, to thief #2 stationed, say, near you at the window seat of some somewhat distanced restaurant (or even your home). Thief #2 receives the rig's repeated/amplified signal and using similar electronic equipment to thief #1, repeats that signal to your nearby key Fob, which responds to it. The Fob's signal then gets picked up by thief #2, and repeated/amplified to thief #1, who retransmits it and opens your rig.

Maybe thief #2's gear records your Fob's response to memory so it can be polled at any time.

!
They typically just relay your fob to your car, So Its worth it to wrap your spare up in foil tightly, and maybe get/make a box for your primary when in house not in use. And this relay attack is not a maybe kinda thing, its happening now.

Probably Ok to not have a shield/bag for it during day, relay attacks work, but recording is still pretty meh as they typically can only reduce the combinations to break it. The issue with all this stuff for people that plan on keeping their vehicles long term is Todays super tricky encryption is stupid easy to crack in 10 years.
 

PavementWarrior

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
Messages
1,231
Reaction score
1,836
Location
CA
Vehicle(s)
2018 2 door JL
Aluminum foil works extremely well and dang I forgot about my additional fob. It's nowhere near my Jeep but still might be a good idea to wrap it with foil.
They do relay attacks so if they can get in range of the fob from outside your house they gotcha (this is current attack plan of bad guys) . Foil up your spares!


Looks like FOB broadcasts in low frequencies, I will have to break out an older analyzer at work, everything I do now is up at 28 GHz for 5G phones
 

PavementWarrior

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
Messages
1,231
Reaction score
1,836
Location
CA
Vehicle(s)
2018 2 door JL
l I'm not sayin that the Club will stop someone from stealing my Jeep lol. I do believe it serves as some type of deterrent as any and all anti-theft devices can.
Agreed, all we have to do is make the deterrent greater than rewards,

Park smart turn wheels to make a tow truck driver annoyed, park in view of people (no middle level parking structures), dont fill vehicle with items to attract thieves, avoid extra bling mods, shield those fobs inside, if you park outside get some motion sensor lights and a 20 dollar camera you can point out window.
 

old8tora

Banned
Banned
Joined
Apr 5, 2018
Messages
2,326
Reaction score
1,068
Location
Cali
Vehicle(s)
2016 JK Sport
I'd seek one, maybe two devices tops, on top of FCA's security
What FCA security ? As long as a thief can take our vin number to a dealer and have a duplicate key made , or presumably a duplicate fob , I don't see any FCA security .

So I have a black card covering my dashboard vin , just to show I'm on to their little game .

So I have my own visual warning security on my Jeep , and hidden stronger security on my person , just in case .

When I went to my selling dealer to buy my new programmable keys , the parts guy , who I'd never met , only wanted the last 6 or 8 numbers of my vin . Not my sales contract , not my registration , not my driver's license . He then set up my keys with the codes ( which he wrote down for my records ) . I don't know about the key fobs , but I'd be careful of disclosing my vin on my dashboard .
 
Last edited:

UKJeep2018

Well-Known Member
First Name
Luke
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
70
Reaction score
39
Location
United Kingdom
Vehicle(s)
Jeep JL Wrangler Sahara
Here in the UK you can fit a immobiliser called Autowatch Ghost. Costs about £400 but you need to press a sequence of buttons before you start the vehicle or it will not start. You can pick how long your “pin” can be and what buttons on the dash you need to press to start the vehicle.

Even if thieves manage to steal the keys or use devices to amplify the fob signal they will not be able to start the car without the pin. Most thieves won’t even know it’s installed so they will assume the battery is dead or their signal booster don’t work and will likely give up. It isn’t a deterrent but combined with a visible steering wheel lock it definitely ensures the best security you can have for a vehicle.

But then again, the Jeep Wrangler is a rare sight in the UK so that itself may be a deterrent as it will stick out like a sore thumb.

When the petrol turbo releases I will definitely be getting the immobiliser installed.
 
OP
OP

RussJeep1

Banned
Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
2,548
Reaction score
1,928
Location
Westchester, NY
Vehicle(s)
JLU Sahara
What have i missed? If I wrap my fob in foil then I can't use it.
.
The presumption is that said wrap, in its ideal state, facilitates easy and repeated opening and closing: read "not aluminum foil otherwise so capable at preventing unwanted transmission of radio signals to and from your Fob."
 
OP
OP

RussJeep1

Banned
Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
2,548
Reaction score
1,928
Location
Westchester, NY
Vehicle(s)
JLU Sahara
What FCA security ? As long as a thief can take our vin number to a dealer and have a duplicate key made , or presumably a duplicate fob , I don't see any FCA security .

So I have a black card covering my dashboard vin , just to show I'm on to their little game .

So I have my own visual warning security on my Jeep , and hidden stronger security on my person , just in case .

When I went to my selling dealer to buy my new programmable keys , the parts guy , who I'd never met , only wanted the last 6 numbers of my vin . Not my sales contract , not my registration , not my driver's license . He then set up my keys with the codes ( which he wrote down for my records ) . I don't know about the key fobs , but I'd be careful of disclosing my vin on my dashboard .

Excellent point. As mentioned, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. And if its "weakest link" is that you describe above, maybe FCA needs to be held liable in part for a vehicle's theft, in both civil and criminal court, so they'll tighten their dealership controls on key reproduction like described above for BMW.
 
OP
OP

RussJeep1

Banned
Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
2,548
Reaction score
1,928
Location
Westchester, NY
Vehicle(s)
JLU Sahara
When these things were fasionable, the crooks just used a bolt cutter, and cut the steering wheel instead. The crooks couldnt care less about the security of the wheel locks.
Again...if you want to go this route, buy this

https://www.qvc.com/qvc.product.H35...MI-ZL2kIys3gIVBY_ICh3USwsQEAQYAyABEgKY6PD_BwE

not this

https://www.walmart.com/ip/The-Club-Steering-Wheel-Lock-Yellow/34109612

And if you want to retort, "what's the difference," the thief can just freeze either lock and crack it," I would respect that and be forced, depending on the skill and determination of the thief, to agree.
 
OP
OP

RussJeep1

Banned
Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
2,548
Reaction score
1,928
Location
Westchester, NY
Vehicle(s)
JLU Sahara
They typically just relay your fob to your car, So Its worth it to wrap your spare up in foil tightly, and maybe get/make a box for your primary when in house not in use. And this relay attack is not a maybe kinda thing, its happening now.

Probably Ok to not have a shield/bag for it during day, relay attacks work, but recording is still pretty meh as they typically can only reduce the combinations to break it. The issue with all this stuff for people that plan on keeping their vehicles long term is Todays super tricky encryption is stupid easy to crack in 10 years.

I just saw a YouTube video Gary of some guy using his kid's old metal lunch box for same.

Dora the Explorer DID truly save the day here.
 
OP
OP

RussJeep1

Banned
Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
2,548
Reaction score
1,928
Location
Westchester, NY
Vehicle(s)
JLU Sahara
Here in the UK you can fit a immobiliser called Autowatch Ghost. Costs about £400 but you need to press a sequence of buttons before you start the vehicle or it will not start. You can pick how long your “pin” can be and what buttons on the dash you need to press to start the vehicle.

Even if thieves manage to steal the keys or use devices to amplify the fob signal they will not be able to start the car without the pin. Most thieves won’t even know it’s installed so they will assume the battery is dead or their signal booster don’t work and will likely give up. It isn’t a deterrent but combined with a visible steering wheel lock it definitely ensures the best security you can have for a vehicle.

But then again, the Jeep Wrangler is a rare sight in the UK so that itself may be a deterrent as it will stick out like a sore thumb.

When the petrol turbo releases I will definitely be getting the immobiliser installed.

I hear you Luke, to which I respond with concern (maybe inflated) that if said device isn't FCA blessed/installed, and for some other reason the rig has warranty covered defects, that FCA will point fingers at said device and not cover repairs at zero owner expense.

FCA shouldn't. I just fear they might.
 
OP
OP

RussJeep1

Banned
Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
2,548
Reaction score
1,928
Location
Westchester, NY
Vehicle(s)
JLU Sahara
…. but recording is still pretty meh as they typically can only reduce the combinations to break it.
Gary, are you saying that said transmission to and from the vehicle and fob are not identical each time and involve a series of otherwise less than Fort Knox level revolving codes to break?

I guess that once they've got your rig started, if the thief's next stop is some "chop shop," or cargo ship destined for far away lands with, how shall I say this, "less than airtight enforcement and extradition treaties with the US," it probably doesn't make much difference.
 

ToolMan514

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Mar 2, 2018
Messages
693
Reaction score
1,193
Location
Montréal, Québec, Canada
Vehicle(s)
'18 Rubicon Unlimited
Vehicle Showcase
1
I had a vehicle back in the day with the same feature.

I wonder if an FCA dealer would even install it. I say this not so much because it is necessarily a difficult thing to do, provided you have knowledge of what wires to tap, and can possibly be a DIY or 3rd party installer job, but my fear that having all but an FCA dealer futz with such things might be warranty risking.
In this modern day of electronics, I think it might be worth testing if -- instead of adding a toggle switch to the ignition -- adding a toggle switch to the brake light switch or sensor would work better. Essentially, you can't "start" the vehicle if you don't have your foot on the brake pedal, so what if the vehicle can't detect that you're pressing the brake? I'm not planning to do this myself, but it would be an interesting proof of concept. I believe that any thief would give up on it, even if they had the key!
 
Advertisement

WheelsASAP
 
Advertisement
Top