Jeep owner uses JL to assist police pursuit, draws gun and fires

Silverblkrilla

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This thread has me rolling. I’m literally in tears reading these replies





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Sean K.

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@Sean K. ,
I stand by my original statement, only that I made the mistake of not knowing who Frederick Douglass was. Your mistake was trying to use a 170 year old statement, taken from an Abolitionist, and using it to justify skewed theory, applied to the modern judicial system.
Have the guts to really say what you feel, in your own words, coming from your own ideas. If you want anarchy, just say so. If you want to smoke your pot, and do drugs, without being hassled by police, have the guts to say so. If you feel other countries are doing policing better than the USA, please, let me know which ones.
I would not knowingly call you an Idiot, just ignorant of the reality involving policing, and incarceration.

I don't use drugs of any kind...never have. I rarely drink and almost never to the point of being intoxicated.

You've made all sorts of assumptions about me....none of which are correct.

There was no "mistake" in quoting Douglass....his words are timeless. You seem upset b/c I used the quote to strengthen the argument that Rule of Law (in the preceding paragraph) is what our system should strive for...very perplexing for someone who swore an oath to the Constitution.

I get it...you "stand by your original statement". As an officer, you encounter people who lie to you daily....naturally you don't believe me when I tell you the truth. That's fine. I also recognize when someone feels their core beliefs are being challenged/threatened, they often double down.

I went so far as to post a video about why Anarchy is one of the least desirable forms of "government" (or lack thereof)...and yet you claim I'm an anarchist b/c I'm not a statist like yourself.

And I already stated the US has the best justice system in existence, but that it needs work.
I'd argue that it's actually the best system out there...
Either reading comprehension isn't in your wheelhouse or you're being intentionally obtuse.

Whatever, so far no one has countered anything that I've said with anything factual that negates it...other than I made a typo.

Have a nice night.....
 
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Sean K.

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I think we can all agree that Sean k. Needs to quit being an asshat. :headbang::flag:
Yes, by all means....drape that statist commentary in the flag, simply b/c we don't agree on a topic. That'll make it all better. I find that most people who have such adoration have no idea what the founders even wrote or why they wrote it and usually don't actually support the premises upon which the country was founded in the first place.
 
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Shenanigans

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Considering the revenue generated for most municipalities by their police forces, not to mention the history of police forces in the United States, and the multi-jurisdictional collaboration between various LE entities, it's hard to believe any officer wouldn't see himself as part of the machinery of local/state or even federal government, but then again, history and a deep, meaningful understanding of civics, isn't an American strong suit.

I was never deluded enough to believe you'd change your signature (or more importantly your view) b/c of a single discussion on an internet forum (as I mentioned earlier). You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
I couldn’t possibly care any less about revenue or my role as a cog in the government machinery beyond maintaining peace, serving my community, and the criminal justice process. I love my job. I respect the privledge of being able to serve in this capacity. I take what I do seriously as it can have very serious consequences for myself as well as some that I come into contact with. That being said, it is a ton of fun. I don’t bombard myself with the politics that you speak of. I’ve spent many years beside you on forums. This isn’t a personal jab. While I can’t speak for others, most that I know in this line of work have the same stance as I.
 

chcg12

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SeanK-

I admittedly don't know you well enough , but suspect in the real world streets you would be in for a rude awakening. Its easy to judge from a safe perch in a good neighborhood with little stake in the game. Many of your negative remarks and assumptions about police are so off base, and in my experience you will be the first one to call the police when needed. The irony..Yes I am making some assumptions. I have, however ,enjoyed your contributions regarding Jeeps on this forum. That said perhaps the following will give you some perspective on law enforcement Officers:

Those who fight monsters inevitably change. Because of all that they see and do, they lose their innocence and a piece of their humanity with it. If they want to survive, they begin to adopt some of the same characteristics as the monsters they fight. It is necessary. They become capable of rage, and extreme violence.
There is a fundamental difference, however. They keep those monster tendencies locked away in a cage, deep inside. That monster is only allowed out to protect others, to accomplish the mission, to get the job done - not for the perverse pleasure that the monsters feel when they harm others. In fact, those monster tendencies cause damage...GUILT, ISOLATION, DEPRESSION, PTSD.
There is a cost for visiting violence on others when you are not a monster. Those who do so know one thing - the cost inflicted upon society as a whole is far greater without those who fight monsters. That is why they are willing to make that horrible sacrifice so that others may live peaceably.
Before you judge one of us, remember this...
We witness things that humans aren't meant to see, and we see them repeatedly. We perform the duties that you feel are beneath you. We solve your problems - often by visiting violence upon others. We run towards the things that you run away from. We go out to fight what you fear. We stand between you and the monsters that want to damage you. You want to pretend that they don't exist, but we know better. We do the things that the vast majority are too soft, too weak, too cowardly to do.
Your life is more peaceful, because of us.
The current political climate in this country holds that there is nothing worth fighting for. Submission is the popular mantra. Warriors are decried, denigrated, and cast as morally inferior. We know how childish, how asinine, and how cowardly that mindset is.
We know this - there ARE things worth fighting, and dying for. We know that not every problem can be solved through rational discourse - that some problems can only be solved through the application of force and violence. And, while we do prefer the former, we are perfectly capable of the latter.
We believe that fighting what others fear is honorable, noble, and just - and we are willing to pay the price for that deeply held belief. Why? For us, it isn't a choice...
It is what we are. We are simply built that way.
~ Author Unknown”
 

DaltonGang

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SeanK-

I admittedly don't know you well enough , but suspect in the real world streets you would be in for a rude awakening. Its easy to judge from a safe perch in a good neighborhood with little stake in the game. Many of your negative remarks and assumptions about police are so off base, and in my experience you will be the first one to call the police when needed. The irony..Yes I am making some assumptions. I have, however ,enjoyed your contributions regarding Jeeps on this forum. That said perhaps the following will give you some perspective on law enforcement Officers:

Those who fight monsters inevitably change. Because of all that they see and do, they lose their innocence and a piece of their humanity with it. If they want to survive, they begin to adopt some of the same characteristics as the monsters they fight. It is necessary. They become capable of rage, and extreme violence.
There is a fundamental difference, however. They keep those monster tendencies locked away in a cage, deep inside. That monster is only allowed out to protect others, to accomplish the mission, to get the job done - not for the perverse pleasure that the monsters feel when they harm others. In fact, those monster tendencies cause damage...GUILT, ISOLATION, DEPRESSION, PTSD.
There is a cost for visiting violence on others when you are not a monster. Those who do so know one thing - the cost inflicted upon society as a whole is far greater without those who fight monsters. That is why they are willing to make that horrible sacrifice so that others may live peaceably.
Before you judge one of us, remember this...
We witness things that humans aren't meant to see, and we see them repeatedly. We perform the duties that you feel are beneath you. We solve your problems - often by visiting violence upon others. We run towards the things that you run away from. We go out to fight what you fear. We stand between you and the monsters that want to damage you. You want to pretend that they don't exist, but we know better. We do the things that the vast majority are too soft, too weak, too cowardly to do.
Your life is more peaceful, because of us.
The current political climate in this country holds that there is nothing worth fighting for. Submission is the popular mantra. Warriors are decried, denigrated, and cast as morally inferior. We know how childish, how asinine, and how cowardly that mindset is.
We know this - there ARE things worth fighting, and dying for. We know that not every problem can be solved through rational discourse - that some problems can only be solved through the application of force and violence. And, while we do prefer the former, we are perfectly capable of the latter.
We believe that fighting what others fear is honorable, noble, and just - and we are willing to pay the price for that deeply held belief. Why? For us, it isn't a choice...
It is what we are. We are simply built that way.
~ Author Unknown”

Well said. But, i might add, that I have seen and have had to do things that most Americans would never want to do, or are mentally capable of doing. I've seen good officers emotionally destroyed, for life, by what we have been through. Am I whining, no!! But, one thing this job has left me with is impatience for stupidity, or people that know my job better than me, just because they read something.
I also detest these ANTIFA lunatics, who are just hell bent on hating America. I am not implying any member here fits what I just wrote, in my post about ANTIFA. Really, I'm not. I just dont appreciate the denigration of what police do. I've worked through 8 years of a Presidential Administration that hated all Police, and Military, except those, that were forced to protect him. I've seen a large portion of society turned against our Police and Military, by false statements, and assumptions by that Person in charge, and it annoys the crap out of me when people attack, and accuse, the police of being "Pawns", in some dastardly plot.
 

Sean K.

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I couldn’t possibly care any less about revenue or my role as a cog in the government machinery beyond maintaining peace, serving my community, and the criminal justice process. I love my job. I respect the privledge of being able to serve in this capacity. I take what I do seriously as it can have very serious consequences for myself as well as some that I come into contact with. That being said, it is a ton of fun. I don’t bombard myself with the politics that you speak of. I’ve spent many years beside you on forums. This isn’t a personal jab. While I can’t speak for others, most that I know in this line of work have the same stance as I.
And I'm not saying most officers think of themselves that way either....as I said, most don't realize the role they play.

Most people in our society have very little interest in our political structure as we are all preoccupied with just making ends meet and trying to lead a good life. I tend to have very different viewpoints than most people...and that often times makes people uncomfortable if not down right angry....which you likely know from spending those years on forums beside me. ;) I find it ironic that in a country where we have free speech that so many folks get offended by a difference of opinion or viewpoint.
 

Sean K.

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SeanK-

I admittedly don't know you well enough , but suspect in the real world streets you would be in for a rude awakening. Its easy to judge from a safe perch in a good neighborhood with little stake in the game. Many of your negative remarks and assumptions about police are so off base, and in my experience you will be the first one to call the police when needed. The irony..Yes I am making some assumptions. I have, however ,enjoyed your contributions regarding Jeeps on this forum. That said perhaps the following will give you some perspective on law enforcement Officers:

Those who fight monsters inevitably change. Because of all that they see and do, they lose their innocence and a piece of their humanity with it. If they want to survive, they begin to adopt some of the same characteristics as the monsters they fight. It is necessary. They become capable of rage, and extreme violence.
There is a fundamental difference, however. They keep those monster tendencies locked away in a cage, deep inside. That monster is only allowed out to protect others, to accomplish the mission, to get the job done - not for the perverse pleasure that the monsters feel when they harm others. In fact, those monster tendencies cause damage...GUILT, ISOLATION, DEPRESSION, PTSD.
There is a cost for visiting violence on others when you are not a monster. Those who do so know one thing - the cost inflicted upon society as a whole is far greater without those who fight monsters. That is why they are willing to make that horrible sacrifice so that others may live peaceably.
Before you judge one of us, remember this...
We witness things that humans aren't meant to see, and we see them repeatedly. We perform the duties that you feel are beneath you. We solve your problems - often by visiting violence upon others. We run towards the things that you run away from. We go out to fight what you fear. We stand between you and the monsters that want to damage you. You want to pretend that they don't exist, but we know better. We do the things that the vast majority are too soft, too weak, too cowardly to do.
Your life is more peaceful, because of us.
The current political climate in this country holds that there is nothing worth fighting for. Submission is the popular mantra. Warriors are decried, denigrated, and cast as morally inferior. We know how childish, how asinine, and how cowardly that mindset is.
We know this - there ARE things worth fighting, and dying for. We know that not every problem can be solved through rational discourse - that some problems can only be solved through the application of force and violence. And, while we do prefer the former, we are perfectly capable of the latter.
We believe that fighting what others fear is honorable, noble, and just - and we are willing to pay the price for that deeply held belief. Why? For us, it isn't a choice...
It is what we are. We are simply built that way.
~ Author Unknown”
I'm not sure I've said anything that is overtly "negative" about police. I've made plenty of comments about the problems with our justice system.

For the record, my father is a now retired Federal LEO. My best friend and the best man at my wedding is currently a state LEO. I don't hate law enforcement at all. In fact, I love an admire both of these individuals immensely, granted, that would be the case regardless of their occupations as both are men of character.

As for your assertion, when things have gone awry in the past, I haven't called police. Why? B/c as both my father and friend have both told me, there's a good chance the homeowner could be the one shot in a heat of the moment type call out since the officer doesn't know who is who in that type of situation. It's better to resolve the situation and have it well in hand before calling police, IMO of course.

I worked through college doing undercover security and had the opportunity to work closely with LE who were not only doing the side job to make ends meet but also came to pick up the felons we apprehended. I know whereof you speak in terms of how officers can become jaded. I began to get that way myself, swimming daily in the cesspool of human existence. It's not an easy job...never intended to claim otherwise. I also worked as an EMT and saw the same sorts of things, at least one dead body a day....and often, how they got that way. Nothing is "beneath" me....picking up 450 lb women with their diabetes puss sacks rupturing all over your arms as you do so would preclude such lofty thinking about myself.

Again, there's a lot of romantic notions about being an officer. You're not supposed to be a warrior.....you're supposed to be a peace officer....unfortunately, the mindset of us vs. them and the WoD has placed officers at odds with the people they are supposed to serve.

In any case...need to get to work....so I'll leave the thread for now.
 
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Rahneld

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You have mixed feelings about due process? So-called "Red Flag" laws are unConstitutional by their very nature.
I (think I) appreciate where you are coming from.

Let me state what I think is your opinion--do correct me if I am wrong because then the rest of my argument would be flawed.

Trying to approach this from law and not opinion by appreciating that we all have biases:

You know red-flag laws to be unconstitutional because they can cause a citizen to be separated from their firearms, even if only temporarily, without due process? And unlike, say, a restraining order, signed by a judge, red flag actions can often be brought by a school teacher, police officer, etc.

But they do need to be approved by a State judge. I agree that they open up the opportunity for abuse and broader means of taking away guns from the citizen--even again if only temporarily--but some think they reduce chances of things like school shootings.

As for me---I have no idea if these laws will be effective, and I'm not sure anyone will know, as the nut case that's forced to part with his weapons, that then can't as easily, say, shoot up a school is hard to track. And is making people part with guns, especially the wrongfully targeted, an acceptable cost, or is arming more people, say, a better answer?

I'll leave it for the legal scholars to challenge these law's constitutionality in court, the armchair warriors to debate better solutions, and respect your opinions.
 

Sean K.

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I (think I) appreciate where you are coming from.

Let me state what I think is your opinion--do correct me if I am wrong because then the rest of my argument would be flawed.

Trying to approach this from law and not opinion by appreciating that we all have biases:

You know red-flag laws to be unconstitutional because they can cause a citizen to be separated from their firearms, even if only temporarily, without due process? And unlike, say, a restraining order, signed by a judge, red flag actions can often be brought by a school teacher, police officer, etc.

But they do need to be approved by a State judge. I agree that they open up the opportunity for abuse and broader means of taking away guns from the citizen--even again if only temporarily--but some think they reduce chances of things like school shootings.

As for me---I have no idea if these laws will be effective, and I'm not sure anyone will know, as the nut case that's forced to part with his weapons, that then can't as easily, say, shoot up a school is hard to track. And is making people part with guns, especially the wrongfully targeted, an acceptable cost, or is arming more people, say, a better answer?

I'll leave it for the legal scholars to challenge these law's constitutionality in court, the armchair warriors to debate better solutions, and respect your opinions.
So-called "red flag" laws are being written to give an illusion of "due process" b/c a mere call by a relative (depending on state and legislative proposal) is taken and discussed with a Judge before issuing the order to seize property. However, the concept of taking one's property FIRST and then giving "due process" is turning centuries of common law and rule of law on its ear going all the way back to Magna Carta in 1215 under King John of England, which was later incorporated into the US Constitution. This literally is an attempt to eviscerate the 2nd, 4th, 5th and 14th Amendments.

Here are a few examples of "red flag-type" laws in action:

In Middlebury, Vermont, prosecutors obtained a Gun Confiscation Order against a kid -- and then, without any statutory authority, used it to strip his law-abiding uncle of his constitutional rights.

In Ferndale, Maryland, 60-year-old Gary Willis was killed by police with a Gun Confiscation Order, when he came to the door at 5:17 a.m. with a gun in his hand. It now turns out that the Gun Confiscation Order was obtained by a vengeful relative who wanted to punish Willis for his political views.

In Seattle, Washington, an early report by Fox News showed that Gun Confiscation Orders were being summarily approved in almost every case.


I'm no fan of Fox News, but claiming that 'due process' is your right to spend 10's of thousands of dollars retaining an attorney (at your own OR taxpayer expense) as well as expert and character witnesses to hopefully get a Judge to say he might have made a mistake, is VERY UNLIKELY to happen...especially if Fox is correct in its assessment.

Bills like S. 7 written by Sen. Blumenthal of CT would convene secret courts and the targeted citizen of these laws would have no idea until police kicked in his door, putting not only the citizen at great risk on nothing more than the word of one person (even the Bible requires "two witnesses")....but the lives of the officers as well and any other occupants of the dwelling in which the order is served. The bills currently don't even have a caveat that the testimony has to be given under oath in all cases.
 

Shots

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TIDALWAVE

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How would you like to be a police officer trying to arrest someone, when a bystander pulls out a hand gun. Is the guy a 'good Samaritan' or an accomplice who is going to shoot you?
 

Shots

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Exactly. It's one thing to block the car in. Excessive to pull a gun, and just absurdly out of line to start shooting.

Though that all seems to be the general consensus. The last few pages are so far off track it's hard to tell how we got here.
 

Sean K.

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Though that all seems to be the general consensus. The last few pages are so far off track it's hard to tell how we got here.
LOL...if you'll remember...I predicted all of this when you started asking me to elaborate. :)
 

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