Jeep owner uses JL to assist police pursuit, draws gun and fires

mwilk012

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Typo. Apologies. Missed the decimal. And it doesn't change the fact that we have more people per capita imprisoned that those other countries.

Here are links: https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=11

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

I can make the comparison quite easily...as any rational person can. Mao's dead. And I'm not comparing Stalin/Lenin/Moa's regimes to our own. I'm comparing the incarceration rate per 100K people.

As for drug crimes....simple question: Do you own your body or does the government? Careful. How you answer that question has all sorts of ramifications for your life and the lives of your fellow citizens.
Drug crimes are not as simple as you libertarian types would like them to be. For one, when you're on drugs you don't own your body, the drugs do. Two, these drugs end up in schools, I've seen as early as 6th grade. It's a major problem. You want it to look like there are millions of people in prison for petty marijuana possession but that's simply not the case.





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Sean K.

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Drug crimes are not as simple as you libertarian types would like them to be. For one, when you're on drugs you don't own your body, the drugs do. Two, these drugs end up in schools, I've seen as early as 6th grade. It's a major problem. You want it to look like there are millions of people in prison for petty marijuana possession but that's simply not the case.
Didn't answer the question. Did you? ;)
 

Sean K.

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See, people like to overly complicate things. The essence of critical thought is to break something down to its simplest principle. If it can't stand on its own in its simplest form, how can it work in more complex iterations?
 

Sean K.

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mwilk012...may I ask: do you consider yourself a "liberal" or "conservative"? Just curious.
 

Sean K.

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Two, these drugs end up in schools, I've seen as early as 6th grade. It's a major problem.
But how can that be? We've made them illegal. Ergo, they can't be in schools. Oh wait. <sarcasm>
 

mwilk012

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Didn't answer the question. Did you? ;)
No, because the answer is complicated and you're being antagonistic. You own your body and your actions up until the point where you become a danger to others. I am a conservative, by most people's definitions, but I hold the radical belief that people should be held responsible for the consequences of their actions. Again, you disregard the fact that a large number of drug possession charges are plea deals from a much larger distribution case, and drug dealers inevitably have a violent record.

And saying things like "The essence of critical thought is to break something down to its simplest principle." is just a waste of energy. It's nonsense you just made up.
 

mwilk012

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But how can that be? We've made them illegal. Ergo, they can't be in schools. Oh wait. <sarcasm>
And laws without strong enforcement do nothing. I am from Oklahoma, the "prison capital of the world" they say. Poor white people love their meth, just can't get enough of it.The underfunded state government does nothing to solve the real problem and just wastes money on arresting everyone they can to try to get it off the streets. I think they might just be stupid, who know. Their governor is incompetent to say the least.

We've derailed the hell out of this thread, I'm out.
 

Sean K.

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No, because the answer is complicated and you're being antagonistic. You own your body and your actions up until the point where you become a danger to others. I am a conservative, by most people's definitions, but I hold the radical belief that people should be held responsible for the consequences of their actions. Again, you disregard the fact that a large number of drug possession charges are plea deals from a much larger distribution case, and drug dealers inevitably have a violent record.

And saying things like "The essence of critical thought is to break something down to its simplest principle." is just a waste of energy. It's nonsense you just made up.
No, you don't (bold added to your quote for emphasis). If you did, you wouldn't have said,

For one, when you're on drugs you don't own your body, the drugs do.
The above is an example of saying the person ISN'T responsible for their actions....that the "drugs" made them do such and such. But in truth, who chose to use the drugs in the first place? The person who is ultimately responsible for whatever action they undertook while "under the influence". The above is a cop out and a way of shirking the responsibility you claim you want people to take.

I never said the charges weren't from distribution....I said they were non-violent drug offenses. I don't care if someone sells drugs or uses them. I believe in free association and the right to contract freely between adults of sound mind.

Where your argument falls apart is criminalizing using drugs. No one's natural rights are violated by the use of drugs. Alcohol is no different than any other illicit drug.

What DOES violate others rights is violence against persons. Neglecting your children because you are a drug addict is no different than neglecting them b/c you didn't want to be a parent. Neglect is the thing that is violating the child's natural rights....not the reason for the neglect....and the parent is RESPONSIBLE for it...regardless of their excuse.

The same can be said of the violence accompanying the drug trade or "drug dealers". The violence is the problem, not the goods they trade. Prohibition is a prime example. In the early 1900s, there were very large alcohol gangs using full auto firearms to shoot up opposing gangs that encroached on their 'turf'. Since Prohibition ended and alcohol became legalized once again, there aren't any "alcohol" gangs shooting each other over distributing their product. Funny, the US Government actually allowed poisoned alcohol to go back on the streets during Prohibition in hopes that it would deter people from drinking...and we ended up killing 10K Americans...and it still didn't stop people from using alcohol.

Brushing something off as "nonsense" doesn't negate what I said. If you'd like to argue that breaking something down to its core principle isn't the best way to see if an overall idea is valid....actually do so. Make your case that something false at its core can be made true by making the scenario more complex.
 
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Sean K.

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And laws without strong enforcement do nothing. I am from Oklahoma, the "prison capital of the world" they say. Poor white people love their meth, just can't get enough of it.The underfunded state government does nothing to solve the real problem and just wastes money on arresting everyone they can to try to get it off the streets. I think they might just be stupid, who know. Their governor is incompetent to say the least.

We've derailed the hell out of this thread, I'm out.
Also from Oklahoma...graduated from OU actually.

We agree that the emphasis needs to be on "strong enforcement"....but I'm not sure what you mean by that. My meaning is rather simple. If you stop prosecuting people for the failed War on Drugs and legalize them, prison overcrowding ceases to be an issue. Then you have plenty of room to house those individuals who actually infringed upon another's natural rights. You also have more funding available to actually work the recidivism problem, restructure the parole system and try new ways to ensure that you're not just releasing someone back into the world that will commit more crimes as they have no other way to make a living.

But regardless....you have a nice night. :)
 

DaltonGang

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Feel free to elaborate. ;)

I'd love to know which parts got your thumbs down....the prayers for the officers? Doubtful.

A quote from one of the brightest minds America has ever produced? Naw.

The truth of the US leading incarceration rates in the developed world thereby illustrating the maxim that "no one is more hopelessly enslaved than those that falsely believe they are free"?

That people go outside the law when they can't get justice within it (which is why drug dealers kill each other over turf wars...they certainly can't get redress from the system when one gang encroaches on their territory....as an example)?

Or maybe the thumbs down is just a commentary on how screwed the entire system is based on all of the above (and there are a lot of reasons I haven't even gone into yet).


PS. Fixed the typo of 7% to .7%.
It was mainly this: You said:
"Please realize that the average policeman may not believe he's part of government over-reach....all the while enforcing laws that incarcerate around .7% of the population (more than Communist regimes in China and Russia) with 60% of those incarcerated being imprisoned for non-violent drug offenses. In short, police believe they are just "doing their job"....not realizing that what they are ultimately laying claim to is being the "enforcer" for the government's claim to own each of our bodies. "

Now it's in combination with what you just wrote.

Let me first say that some of the brightest, self proclaiming, pseudointellectual, idiots out there are just that, idiots, about real world matters. They, like you, are insulting, and condescending, towards people you disagree with, and do it with statistics gleaned from academics, who know theory and stats, but not real life. I live the real life, I see it, i work it. So, dont throw this long haired I hate police crap at us, and pretend you like the police, by injecting a pro police sentence at the end of your drivel.
Sure there are a lot of drug users locked up, and for gold reason, they broke the law. If you knew anything about drug offenders, you know most support their habits by stealing, burglaries, robberies, and swindling.
I Guess Freiderick Douglass wasnt bright enough to take that into account, with his disingenuous statistics. But, as long as their are dupes, such as yourself, that believe everything some bloviating academic spouts, there will always be a need to have people give you a gut check.
I dont expect you to come around to my reality, but you really shouldnt blindly take statistics at face value. Its easy to manipulate facts.
 

Sean K.

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It was mainly this: You said:
"Please realize that the average policeman may not believe he's part of government over-reach....all the while enforcing laws that incarcerate around .7% of the population (more than Communist regimes in China and Russia) with 60% of those incarcerated being imprisoned for non-violent drug offenses. In short, police believe they are just "doing their job"....not realizing that what they are ultimately laying claim to is being the "enforcer" for the government's claim to own each of our bodies. "

Now it's in combination with what you just wrote.

Let me first say that some of the brightest, self proclaiming, pseudointellectual, idiots out there are just that, idiots, about real world matters. They, like you, are insulting, and condescending, towards people you disagree with, and do it with statistics gleaned from academics, who know theory and stats, but not real life. I live the real life, I see it, i work it. So, dont throw this long haired I hate police crap at us, and pretend you like the police, by injecting a pro police sentence at the end of your drivel.
Sure there are a lot of drug users locked up, and for gold reason, they broke the law. If you knew anything about drug offenders, you know most support their habits by stealing, burglaries, robberies, and swindling.
I Guess Freiderick Douglass wasnt bright enough to take that into account, with his disingenuous statistics. But, as long as their are dupes, such as yourself, that believe everything some bloviating academic spouts, there will always be a need to have people give you a gut check.
I dont expect you to come around to my reality, but you really shouldnt blindly take statistics at face value. Its easy to manipulate facts.
I tend not to wear my religion on my sleeve as it's a private matter in my mind. My beliefs would surely earn me a label of "heretic" and a spot on a burning stake were it only a few hundred years ago (I don't believe in Trinity, celebrating Christmas/Easter, Rapture Theory, that the "old law" is done away with, that the Bible is the inerrant or literal Word of God, etc). Let's just say my religious/spiritual beliefs are as unorthodox as my political ones.

I will state that I did in fact say a prayer for full healing for the officers involved in the shooting today before I posted as such. See, I actually believe in that 2nd most important commandment to "love one another".

So far, you've basically insinuated I'm an idiot, but haven't bothered to counter YOUR OWN STATISTICS....from the Bureau of Justice. So if you don't like them, that's really your issue; not mine.

In point of fact, I don't hate police. I don't hate anyone actually now that I think about it. Do I think they could do a better job? Yes. I know I could be better at my job and can name all sorts of industries where there could be improvement. Just b/c I don't think everything in the justice system is a-okay doesn't mean that I think it's fundamentally flawed. I'd argue that it's actually the best system out there....doesn't mean it can't be improved, that it doesn't have problems and doesn't mean that it hasn't strayed MASSIVELY from its origins as the founders laid it out (almost at inception, frankly).

I have no issue with locking people up for stealing/swindling/violence...those things all actually violate natural rights of the victims. Perhaps think through what I'm saying rather than just responding out of a sense of indignation.

As for Frederick Douglass....it's clear you don't know who he is or what that quote is referencing. Please educate yourself on the matter before speaking out of turn.
 
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Sean K.

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I think we can all agree that Sean k. Needs to quit being an asshat. :headbang::flag:
 

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@Sean K. ,
I stand by my original statement, only that I made the mistake of not knowing who Frederick Douglass was. Your mistake was trying to use a 170 year old statement, taken from an Abolitionist, and using it to justify skewed theory, applied to the modern judicial system.
Have the guts to really say what you feel, in your own words, coming from your own ideas. If you want anarchy, just say so. If you want to smoke your pot, and do drugs, without being hassled by police, have the guts to say so. If you feel other countries are doing policing better than the USA, please, let me know which ones.
I would not knowingly call you an Idiot, just ignorant of the reality involving policing, and incarceration.
 

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