Is the 3.6L BSG something I should want? Will I have a choice?

BillyHW

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Greetings,

The new timeline the admins posted show a 3.6L with BSG "mile hybrid" coming out with the 2019 model. My first question is if this is something I should want. I'm worried that it brings extra complexity and since it is new, reliability problems. Does it have batteries? Will they have to be replaced at some point? And how much extra weight does it add?

I drive mostly highway too, and plan on disabling ESS most of the time. What are the advantages and disadvantages of the BSG? And does it have any advantages/disadvantages in an off-road situation?

My second question is if this will be an option in 2019 or if all 3.6L V6 engines will have them with no choice. I need to know if I should get a 2018 instead if it's something I don't want.





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Bullring

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I believe FCA has said all along that the whole line will be mild hybrids and EVs by a certain year so I doubt we will have a choice of 3.6L ESS after the belt start generator version is introduced for 2019. It doesn't make sense for their CAFE goals or from a marketing/pricing point of view.

As for BSG according to FCA it essentially uses an electric motor which acts like a modified alternator (located in same place as a traditional alternator) that generates current but also doubles as a starter to restart the engine after ESS shuts it off at a stop. Supposed to be a cheap way to achieve better fuel economy. Not sure if that will prove true in real life use.
 

The Great Grape Ape

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The new timeline the admins posted show a 3.6L with BSG "mile hybrid" coming out with the 2019 model. My first question is if this is something I should want. I'm worried that it brings extra complexity and since it is new, reliability problems. Does it have batteries? Will they have to be replaced at some point? And how much extra weight does it add?
It's classified as a mild-hybrid, and essentially acts as a small but kinda powerful electric motor to provide a little early-on torque and HP to the vehicle to make the ESS experience smoother, and sometimes to assist with things like turbo lag by biving the framework to add other features electric spin to the turbos to pre-charge them to reduce lag. However a BSG is essentially the lowest class of 'hybrid' as it's very low power/storage. Unlike people equating it to the Pacifica, that is a full HEV (technically PHEV), the BSG is a very mild boost to the system.

However the negatives are also very mild. Does it add complexity, yep, a bit but low on the scale, IMO less than turbo and DI. And like ESS they also make the components that are a concern a little more robust.

Does it add weight? Yes, either it's a second more energy dense battery or a single dense 48V battery with usually a coupla times the weight of a typical battery, plus the DC-DC voltage hardware, but it would be like adding a winch weight wise.

Yes you would need to replace the battery(ies) if you keep your wrangler long enough, but that should be after quite some time, and if it's just AGM that's not too bad, and FCA currently warranties their lithium HEV batteries for 10yrs/160,000KMs.

Do you want one..

I drive mostly highway too, and plan on disabling ESS most of the time. What are the advantages and disadvantages of the BSG? And does it have any advantages/disadvantages in an off-road situation?
For primarily highway driving it won't add much, especially for the Pentastar vs the Turbos which might stay of boost or have more efficient boost with BSG (still more theoretical in a vehicle of that weight), but a thing that works against BSG and highway driving is that the motors offer the most torque/Hp at low vehicle and engine speed.

Fr off-roading the BSG might help with feathering the throttle around obstacle and provide assistance with low speed maneuvers, but it depends on how good the system is implemented. Just like a CVT can have a crap implementation (Jeep Compass), or a good one (IMO Subaru, Nissan), BSG can have good and bad systems. But with the Pentastar where it might offer the most benefit is in off-roading.

Possible off-road disadvantage, still unknown how this mechanical-electric system will cope with dirt, dust and especially possible submersion.

It doesn't do well in cold, not only affecting battery performance for storage and delivery, most systems also suffer belt slip in US cold, let alone Canadian cold (maybe Alaska cold too).

Now if they implement the in-line transmission based system like the ZF8 hybrid add-in rather than a belted external to the drive-line system, then it would reduce a lot of the drawbacks and improve the mild-hybrid benefits and reduce the efficiency loses of an external system.

My second question is if this will be an option in 2019 or if all 3.6L V6 engines will have them with no choice.
It's unknown, but it's highly likely that when they are ready to implement it, then it's an all or none sistuation just like frickin' ESS and for the same reasons, so they can apply the theoretical benefits to all vehicles in the fleet.

I would personally want BSG added to my Pentastar (though prefer the ZF setup) but I do a fair amount of in-town driving in Cowtown and so I see it providing benefit for that aspect of my multi-use Wrangler. I just worry about the cold, and also the effect of snow, mud, river crossing and especially Alberta and Territories dust on such a system.

It does make me wonder if adding it to a manual would help with stop & go traffic on the hills? I love driving my manual transmission at the cottage, but I hate a stick in stop and go traffic in the foothills, make that a more 'automatic' experience when driving 50ft at a time, that would be a game changer for me.
 

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I drive my TJ in 1st gear in heavy traffic and let it lug down to >500rpm, idling along, keeping enough distance between myself and the car ahead to not have to stop. Rarely touch the clutch. It'd be really nice if the ESS cars with manual let us come to a full stop in gear, and restart while still in gear, without touching the clutch. THAT, would be a game changer.
 

The Great Grape Ape

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A pretty good quick and dirty view of different mild hybrid systems including the traditional BSG, and then a clutch type system like that found on the ZF;

https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/consu..._48v_systems_and_synergistic_technologies.pdf

A little more detail;

http://x-engineer.org/automotive-en...d-hybrid-electric-vehicle-mhev-architectures/

A lot more detailed (but more theoretical);
http://scholar.uwindsor.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5789&context=etd

Some good examples of the system, but a lot of market/segment detail including global market info to get an idea of the overall push of ESS/BSG/Hybrid and some of the trends and thinking;
http://www.umtri.umich.edu/sites/default/files/PTS21.2014.Matti Vint3_0.pdf

ZF;

https://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/.../cars/cars_8_speed_hybrid_transmissions.shtml

https://www.zf.com/global/media/pro...brid_system/pdf_125/efficient_and_dynamic.pdf
 
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BillyHW

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It's classified as a mild-hybrid, and essentially acts as a small but kinda powerful electric motor to provide a little early-on torque and HP to the vehicle to make the ESS experience smoother, and sometimes to assist with things like turbo lag by biving the framework to add other features electric spin to the turbos to pre-charge them to reduce lag. However a BSG is essentially the lowest class of 'hybrid' as it's very low power/storage. Unlike people equating it to the Pacifica, that is a full HEV (technically PHEV), the BSG is a very mild boost to the system.

However the negatives are also very mild. Does it add complexity, yep, a bit but low on the scale, IMO less than turbo and DI. And like ESS they also make the components that are a concern a little more robust.

Does it add weight? Yes, either it's a second more energy dense battery or a single dense 48V battery with usually a coupla times the weight of a typical battery, plus the DC-DC voltage hardware, but it would be like adding a winch weight wise.

Yes you would need to replace the battery(ies) if you keep your wrangler long enough, but that should be after quite some time, and if it's just AGM that's not too bad, and FCA currently warranties their lithium HEV batteries for 10yrs/160,000KMs.

Do you want one..



For primarily highway driving it won't add much, especially for the Pentastar vs the Turbos which might stay of boost or have more efficient boost with BSG (still more theoretical in a vehicle of that weight), but a thing that works against BSG and highway driving is that the motors offer the most torque/Hp at low vehicle and engine speed.

Fr off-roading the BSG might help with feathering the throttle around obstacle and provide assistance with low speed maneuvers, but it depends on how good the system is implemented. Just like a CVT can have a crap implementation (Jeep Compass), or a good one (IMO Subaru, Nissan), BSG can have good and bad systems. But with the Pentastar where it might offer the most benefit is in off-roading.

Possible off-road disadvantage, still unknown how this mechanical-electric system will cope with dirt, dust and especially possible submersion.

It doesn't do well in cold, not only affecting battery performance for storage and delivery, most systems also suffer belt slip in US cold, let alone Canadian cold (maybe Alaska cold too).

Now if they implement the in-line transmission based system like the ZF8 hybrid add-in rather than a belted external to the drive-line system, then it would reduce a lot of the drawbacks and improve the mild-hybrid benefits and reduce the efficiency loses of an external system.



It's unknown, but it's highly likely that when they are ready to implement it, then it's an all or none sistuation just like frickin' ESS and for the same reasons, so they can apply the theoretical benefits to all vehicles in the fleet.

I would personally want BSG added to my Pentastar (though prefer the ZF setup) but I do a fair amount of in-town driving in Cowtown and so I see it providing benefit for that aspect of my multi-use Wrangler. I just worry about the cold, and also the effect of snow, mud, river crossing and especially Alberta and Territories dust on such a system.

It does make me wonder if adding it to a manual would help with stop & go traffic on the hills? I love driving my manual transmission at the cottage, but I hate a stick in stop and go traffic in the foothills, make that a more 'automatic' experience when driving 50ft at a time, that would be a game changer for me.
Thanks for the response. The timeline that the admins posted says it's BSG belt driven and not inline with the transmission, unfortunately.

Will all that standstill extra torque make it worse on ice?

I'm kind of leaning against it. It just sounds to me like limited benefits with the potential for unreliability and expensive repairs, especially early on until they work out all the bugs.

I don't like the idea of a forced upgrade though. I was leaning on getting a 2019, but if they won't give me a choice I may have to buy a 2018 instead.
 
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BillyHW

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Does the Grand Cherokee already have a 3.6L with BSG, or is the Wrangler going to be the guinea pig for this new technology?
 

The Great Grape Ape

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Thanks for the response. The timeline that the admins posted says it's BSG belt driven and not inline with the transmission, unfortunately.
Yeah, I know, but as it's October 2018, I'm hoping this far out people are simply equating the two, because I like the hope ofmthe ZF better than the probability of the BSG (which I'll still take).

Will all that standstill extra torque make it worse on ice?
Shouldn't, as the more linear power should avoid the surges/spikes that break tranction, however that belt slippage and the type of implementation (see CVT note) might infouence it's on ice performance. However you should also still be able to 'start in 2nd' using the shifter to 'soften' how the power is transmitted to the road for icey starts, I do that now wih the plain Pentastar.

I'm kind of leaning against it. It just sounds to me like limited benefits with the potential for unreliability and expensive repairs, especially early on until they work out all the bugs.
For you use-case you described above I would agree.

I don't like the idea of a forced upgrade though. I was leaning on getting a 2019, but if they won't give me a choice I may have to buy a 2018 instead.
I would almost say there's hope if it comes in October that there are some summer 2019MY without it.. but I think that's unlikely, Lthough with it no longer being the only engine, a mid model refresh wouldn't be as dramatic. However yes, I would recommend keeping you eye out for the end of the 2018 MY , the one advantage of that is usually there are great deals/discounts during the MY crossover in summer.

Does the Grand Cherokee already have a 3.6L with BSG, or is the Wrangler going to be the guinea pig for this new technology?
GC doesn't already have it, but it may be the first to get it, it's usually the guinea pig, as it was the first for the original Pentastar and Pentastar refresh. So both might get that update at the same time, I doubt it would be limited to the Wrangler, but one or the other would get it first, usually I'd say GC but could be Wrangler for a change.
 

Eugene the Jeep

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From reading the above it sounds like the idea behind BSG will be to smooth out the ESS experience but no gains on MPG?
 

The Great Grape Ape

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From reading the above it sounds like the idea behind BSG will be to smooth out the ESS experience but no gains on MPG?
No significant gains overall. But when all are combined, then they add up, but it's incremental, not dramatic.

In most implementations when they beak-down the impact of the system benefits ESS is usually seen as the biggest benefit (but still small, like 2-7%), with BSG usually being less than half the benefit of ESS.

Realistically, niether is significant at boosting efficiency overall... except... in true stop-n-go where you pause for 15+ seconds at a time, then go 30ft traffic and pause again, where the benefits of ESS can really be applied to greater effect, that's where you might see the double digit benefits of ESS, and then the BSG makes that experience better than without.
Even with slow creeping 5MPH/10KPh traffic you lose ESS benefits because it never really becomes an advanatage to stop and start.

Now with a truer Hybrid implementation of BSG with a stronger motor and better storage, then you can drive at very slow speeds for short distances on electric-only power, so with that type of BSG you could see benefits in that creeping traffic, but again, only for as long as the battery last which usually with even a robust BSG is only like a mile or so before the gas engine would need to restart to recharge the system, so the overall benefit would still be minor, but for that tiny segment would appear to be a large benefit, however for your overall commute it'd still be a very small impact.

Heck the benefits of EGR VVL and new injectors on this updated Pentastar is going to be more of an efficiency boost than ESS according to FCA's own press releases. But add them all together and it's all starting to add-up. And if they made ESS programming default to "previous engine setting" at start then I'd be happy with all of it.
 
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BillyHW

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They should really make that ESS default setting adjustable in some deep secret dealer menu that gets "leaked" to the internet. It would make the enthusiasts happy and 99% of the regular folks wouldn't ever even know about it. Or even something as simple as pulling a fuse.

And seriously, they hacked a jeep over the air and ran it off the road, why can't someone figure out how to hack the ESS setting...

"Previous engine setting" would be perfect.
 

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I'd bet someone like AEV will come out with a new ProCal that will give the optinon to disable the ESS, so you don't have to switch it off manually every time you start the vehicle.
 

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I'd bet someone like AEV will come out with a new ProCal that will give the optinon to disable the ESS, so you don't have to switch it off manually every time you start the vehicle.
The F-150 owners hacked the ESS by installing a jumper wire on the back of the switch. This tricked the switch into thinking it was constantly pressed to turn the system off.
 
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BillyHW

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I'd bet someone like AEV will come out with a new ProCal that will give the optinon to disable the ESS, so you don't have to switch it off manually every time you start the vehicle.
Having something constantly plugged into the OBD port is a bit inelegant. Also costs $150 USD. But if it's the only option and I really get sick of pressing that damn button every time, I may have to buy it.
 

The Great Grape Ape

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Having something constantly plugged into the OBD port is a bit inelegant. Also costs $150 USD.
Yep, said as much last time we discussed this here and elsewhere. I also don't wanna hack stuff like the hood latch on the Cherokee , they should just offer a 'remember' option.

I'd rather not have to pay for something that can just be a series of secret clicks, like the seat-belt disable dance we do, or the oil check reset combo, or engine shift point reset. Most people don't know them, and they let the few who do, do what they need to.

The thing that also needs to be cnsidered is that the new ECU is supposedly more protected by FCA this time around and tuners including this ESS deafeat device might be locked out.

IIRC even the guy who made this ODBII solution was recently commenting on that very thing and hoping he could figure out a way around it, so even this solution may disappear.
 

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